but let's look for. top level talks between the leaders the russian tuckey and iran. over the future of the syrian crisis the president's denouncing saudi arabia. following recent assaults on riyadh spoil facilities. bharath gets the british prime minister gets his own news conference after talks in luxembourg the e.u. accuses johnson of failing to anything you. post an unarmed man has been seriously injured by anti-government protesters in hong kong during the latest round of demonstrations as tensions in the chinese territory pos the 100 day mark.

and just have a no will be had to bring you the latest news but right now across the u.k. island. hello and welcome across not where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle 80 years ago this month the 2nd world war in europe began 6 years later the scourge of german fascism was defeated however the meaning of the start of the war remains hotly contested this history is intensely political. cross-linking revisionism i'm joined by my guest show for you. roberts he is

america's professor of history at university college cork as well as member of the royal irish academy and his latest book is churchill and stalin we also have dmitri bobbitt she's a political analyst and editor interest me internet media project and in london we cross our going to be curious he is a writer on legal affairs as well as editor in chief of the duran dot com all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate jeffrey let me go to you 1st your center of visiting moscow and you are in the steam historian of the 2nd world war and of the soviet union why is it contested the beginnings of the 2nd world war because although most of time it's about the outcome of the 2nd world war but we had this. debate is in warsaw the russians were not invited the germans were why is that still controversial. the idea front of us for the. boys of course a massive amount of us right you know 2nd world war 5060000000 people. reshaped

completely the 20th century well we're still living with the consequences and shadow of. it is one of the most important of all historical but it's political still it's always been it's always be political it's always been a matter of just historical contestation about watch you happened who was responsible political blind been light now is particularly controversial at the present moment the actually front of us of course because what's going on in in relations between the russian federation and the west because of the the unique ukrainian crisis because the propaganda war that's going on between the russian federation west and the anniversary of the war particular events associate with it become part of that political struggle ok alex let me go to you in london and say you know we have as i pointed out a few seconds ago russia wasn't invited to these festivities in poland certainly a snub to the russians but the germans were invited. it reminds me of the you know

the the soviet nazi non-aggression pact ok i mean if one can draw conclusions about the morality of that but the cold political calculation you can't deny but the poles want to seem to have it just one way go ahead alex well the poles have their own interpretation of the of the model of software control the russians have theirs there's also what people like jeffrey roberts to do which is that you go through history and you decide what you you have i'm not saying polls are not entitled to their own interpretation of the molotov ribbentrop that my own personal view is that given the situation which existed in august 19th 39 a pact between the soviet union and germany was probably something that many people in moscow would have decided made sense to them yeah they failed to forge an

alliance with the west they tried they failed to forge maligns with poland they tried a pact which limited as they would seen it german expansion eastward would have made sense of there the problem is not that there are these divergent opinions about this event it is that in the west increasingly not talking about historic story and talking about medium and talking about politics. we are not only hearing only one view of the maldives of ribbentrop pact each is becoming increasingly the all to dos view which everybody who wishes to be considered respectable and accepted is required increasingly to accept and that i think is dangerous thing because it distorts very badly our understanding of the events let you know not all and it also means that the last of us who were the principle country then suffered

the raters losses during that war on and on in effect the disallowed from having an opinion about its own region yes particularly demons since that was the red army that liberated poland from from nazi occupation that's why i want to slightly disagree with alex about paul there are more school remember who liberated the country and they are dismayed by the fact that cemeteries of soviet soldiers who died in poland are being desecrated well the polish government says only removing the symbols but what is a memorial site and point you will have that emblem of the soviet union or in the fortress the portrait of stardom and you have the scription 3000 soldiers buried here if you take down the sword at them but them you destroy the memory these people are no longer there symbolically and the polish government is doing it right

now so there are paulson talks in that situation that are the interesting point is that. i think there are 2 black legends about president putin and his attitude to history in the west the 1st is that he invaded ukraine and you can just go all watch the television in the end of 2013 in the beginning of 20145 months long cool and put in only reacted. in march when it became inevitable that the new regime it's all installed itself in ukraine but the other black legend is that putin supports the study and his narrative of the into and you know there are facts if putin supported that narrative would he go in 2010 together with prime minister to the burial site or the portrush offices massacred in kutty would he weighed the wrath of that would he go to vest in 2009 when the diversity of the

beginning of the war was set to break that 10 years ago he went there and put in well even though he knew he would be insulted by the hawks you know the polish president then said that poland stabbed in the back from russia in 1939 soviet union from the securing it well at the point that this sorry when in also was not only russia was not invited even though. troops would embrace that point also they forgot to invite all the presidents of the central asian republics even though there were tens of thousands of who died in port they did not invite any of our from yugoslavia even though through goes live it was lost so many people are going to the war portions of it can't be compared to poor and the montenegran. dukane which said that you know djukanovic has been very anti russian during the

last few years so when he said that i'm quoting him it would be very appropriate to invite someone from russia to show the grand role that the former soviet union played in liberating europe if you hear it from someone like your kind of age that these the 2 things that i always find very interesting is that people pick one moment in time and say it's emblematic of the rest of history moving forward but i when i think of the the start to the 2nd world war and subjects were 939. my 1st historical reference is the atrocity committed munich ok it was the western democracies that broke up. and stayed in an. appeasement to the nazis here i mean if you're in moscow it respectively of your political coloration ok you could say hey you know that here these countries france and britain and then you also also have italy but it was fascist at the time they

were the ones that betrayed the international system but no it's the pact that was the great deal of the international system that people that say that my point is the story of people that don't take that into account are a historical what. the mouse i question by referring back to something that alex said when he said well the coast opposer in view of the model. of the view well yes the polls or some polls are very politicized view of the those russians because different countries are political views of the world this planet so if used as politics is also historical it's historical truth and you're right the poles old i want to discuss some of the many ways analysis of it back and the red army invasion of eastern poland. and i don't want to discuss munich when poland was part of the end. of 34 non-aggression

pact with germany and i want to discuss the polish collaboration with in the 19th that i want to discuss the obstruction of poland to the last negotiations between the soviet union brit come from britain and from here they want to present poland as a victim pure and simple and everyone else has been guilty and particularly of course the soviet union be being guilty ok as a historian i'm committed to telling the whole story all aspects of the truth even some aspects see. no i mean you know i've spent my whole life studying things from the soviet and russian you so obviously i have a certain identification with that point but i want to discuss even things that you know russians russian federation putin or whoever i'm comfortable with that includes discussing. and the collaboration between stalin hitler after the pact i mean that there's a very good case to be made for in terms of real politic for the pact itself the 23rd of august that's my perception is that there's

a much much much more complex argument when you consider what happened after the pattern of the intense collaboration that was between the soviet union germany and the aftermath of the nazis of impact in one minute before we go to the break here i mean. geoffrey makes a very good point here in a it's often tale of my point is that you just cherry pick what is self-serving in the present and that's exactly what we're seeing and how the the landing at normandy be the end of the war in berlin where you were day you celebrated on this it all politically motivated 20 seconds before we go to break absolutely and can i just come back to point dimitri babich makes yes there are many people in poland with diverse opinions if you truly one interpretation of the events of august 19th $39.00 is the correct $1.00 and $1.00 you are not only distorting the development of russian and polish his relations discussion history you're also

consolidates seen certain people in poland who have a particular political agenda who always want poland to be as jeffrey correctly said seen as the victim and never want to poland itself that agency and sometimes that actions are going to hold the whole their point we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on revisionism stay with us. liz.

lead. the full. length. lead. play. play. play. play. play. play. live. so. let's

just say. playing. a very warm welcome to you watching us in such. what politicians do. they put themselves on the line they get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president. some want to. it's a great deal for us this is what the 3 of them want to get. interested in the washington. post.

welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle remind you we're discussing revisionism. ok demon before the break you really want to jump in and you're such a patient man please go well i think that jeff you rightly said that that was not just the pact itself there was the ration between the soviet union and nazi germany in there and of $1000.00 such a night and it does not forgotten here there was a decision by the soviet parliament the so-called congress of people would step in 1008 $109.00 which condemned the secret protocols to the pact and which basically. it was still the soviet union that was still the soviet union but all the wars of the soviet union which do not contradict the laws of the russian federation are conceded to be legal here you know so that the legal norm is steal all parable

fortune did not cancel it and if you look at his policies and if you look at their official statements from russia they're all none of them justified the secret protocols well the other problem is that if the west wants to refute the pact completely then the onus should be returned to paul want us to be you'll know basically it was taken by marshall superskinny in the 20th in an aggressor. act started you know there are no more humans to start in russia except in the museum soapbox there are more humans to kill all over paul you know he's considered a hero so if we return to the situation before the pact then we should again change the borders in eastern europe and these people you know who criticize russia. for you know seemingly justifying that act they don't want to do it i hope right so they should be consequential the other interesting moment that i think is important

you know basically we are forced to defend ourselves because despite our russian desire to say goodbye to the past and to ask for forgiveness and be forgiven the west coast and he reminds us all of our guilt and presses you know that bottom about that. for example even said that it's a spanish newspaper just yesterday you know this article if the pact which is responsible for tens of millions of deaths so it's not it's the pack that is responsible if that bag has been culled the 2 days continued to you would be divided between 2 parts so would have subject what would happen i don't like subjunctive history but since that junk to is used against us then i will use my subjective if hitler invaded not just poland you know i'm still the

future soviet border if he invaded the whole poland up to means to kiev you know what would happen to the jews who had been living there for the same very good point of view it would be all the german to try to encourage i've been one of to say if you want to go back to the situation before then western ukraine should be handed over to poland sure absolutely. ok the ok you can condemn the masses of a pact but it did result in the united. and then the united ukraine it. also had the effect of actually creating a fairly ethnically diverse poland polak hall here. if you want it again right it was is this cherry picking here so alex i want to change gears a little bit here i mean we still have in 2019 the polls arguing about the past and pointing fingers at russia but unfortunately they have passed up or or avoided or

ignored historical precedent of reconciliation i mean i mean a lot of people that are watching this program that are keenly interested in history know the history the acrimonious relationship that france and germany had prior to the 2nd world war that reconciliation is a model for the poles and the russians to emulate but there is but for it to be emulated you have to have both parties only one party doesn't want to do it the other one does go ahead alex we're all this is exactly the point you understand about this is that poland actually is a country that is no longer threatened by russia i mean those quarrels over territory open borders that was talking about they've got poland by the way was called up and so it's very substantially territory in the west where she's now of course you know from germany nobody suggesting that but it is going to look at

that poland however is very much in russia's neighborhood it is playing in my opinion and extremely reckless by supporting people in ukraine which is an area which brings you to confrontation with russia he's talking continuously about russia big and some sort of the 1st 3 as i said russia is not in any conceivable sense and adversity and the effect of this is that he. creating tension both between poland and russia and between russia and the rest of europe because of course poland is a part of europe now if we can move beyond this and the french and german. is i think a valid then we can start yet if you want a peaceful situation in eastern europe like the one we have in west europe where wars no longer are really conceivable woman coming just

as no reason there's no reason in principle why the anniversary of the war should be a divisive story in principle issue a unified under bursar you know the starting point for that unity is that it was headless will lower the nazis not nazi germany was a star it wasn't nazi soviet pact wasn't even the british and french appeasers or you know the pre-war polish government it was hitler it was hitler's war and that's that's where everyone can unite around he is being anti fashion and then telling america's presence there actually confirms that there is that ideally the sins of the past germany are now on a course like 10 years ago when you had the 73 there was a similar ceremony in poland putin was at what was at this hour and made some very critical remarks about the nazi at the masses but of course the political situation has changed since 2000 on the new year but you have a different polish government and you have a different a different

a different context you know the war should be. a focus for unity across europe not a matter of division it's a merit division because of political choices to make by political leaders in different countries you know i think the fact that the war now is division and not uniting it was something about our times because even in the sixty's and the seventy's that situation with the. difference and the polish president in his interview to debilitate site don't you know that german newspaper when asked about reconciliation with germany he said that basically the german and polish thought it priests back in the sixty's issued that slogan we are forgiven and we're asking for forgiveness remember but when he was asked if you can use the same formula with russia he said no way i'm to have the russians recognize their aggression in september 1939 and you know russians are emotional people just like course when

we see an injustice sometimes the backlash is so strong that with some circles in russia yes it was up to almost justifying the pact but this is not the government it is their part of the public opinion that is like that and it's a backlash to what we have been seen in warsaw for example on the 1st of september who were invited them arrogance the germans the british people who had no role in liberate in poland in 1904945 at least no direct role and also i think it's very important to notice that when steinmeier the german president and do the visit it's very little you know this is a polish town destroyed by the german planes in the beginning of the war do the said that these play should be remembered as a gift that spain all i do assure ground that's france as leaders that i think the

czech republic know well what about starting out and then grant who suffered more i mean these were medians of people starve to death in leningrad there were hundreds of thousands of people killed by the error rate in studying the german. and the polish president is not even going to mention the military assault on the civilian population you're learning i'm saying this just to explain. i mean of why some people in russia have to critics that they go all the way to saying that broadly a probably we should not have cared about the ports in the fall of put you know let me go back in london you know with every time geoffrey robertson and i speak here in moscow eventually the issue of the world war a television series the big o. is made in the 1970 s. it's very interesting i think it's the best documentary series ever made ever and but it couldn't be made today because of the politics of toxic politics that we

have of today what you could in the 1970 s. i think it says a lot about how people use history as a political weapon go ahead oh absolutely i mean the situation in historical research and scholarship here has deteriorated at least not perhaps in story research but the way in which it has been communicated to the public it's really politicians search and so the media we have moved away from a situation where people are being informed to where they're improper gaddaar east which is extremely dangerous and extremely bad and you don't want to show aren't think of fundamental. in generations because it was in the 1970 s. when that series was made most of the people who were involved in that series support in the war. fought in the war all they had a direct standing and feeling for the wall and even in the worst of the cold war

that was the sense that the soviet union and the west walked alongside each other against this terrible evil now that is dissolved being. seen stead what you call revisionism which is actually in this context ages information campaign about to start the 2nd ball is increasingly gaining. yes i would be as pessimistic as alan i mean there is this reason as he calls it there is this propagandized view of the war but i don't think you should confuse you know the vehemence with which propagate by the politicians and subsection of the media with the simple exceptions by the public on the unimpaired many i think there's a lot of pushback pushbike about it that all of common sense about the war itself you know that the historical memory of the law and signed the soviet union's role in the war and that moment of unity in the 19th i don't think that stuff can been

completely because so many of the so because so many of the other wars the west is fought has been so murky and unclear and the goals seem to be more propaganda but that was a war that you have to eat can easily come out and i think we should perhaps give people a bit more credit to be able to the people more to see for this propaganda of politics on that note there gentlemen we've run out of time many thanks to my guests here in moscow and in london thanks to our viewers for watching us here in our d.c. unix time and remember cross topples. the world is driven by.

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