hello and welcome to crossfire for all things considered peter lavelle israel's parliamentary elections have again ended in deadlock the electorate is divided divided on the political right sitting prime minister benjamin netanyahu says it's either my right wing blogs or again chris back government how does this kind of rhetoric bode for the palestinians and middle east the ability. crosstalk in the israeli elections i'm joined by my guest philip giraldi in percival he is a former cia counterterrorism specialist who is now executive director of the counsel for the national interest in tel aviv we have gideon levy he's a columnist for hideouts also in tel aviv we have mehlman he is a senior israeli security writer and commentator right gentlemen cross-talk rules

in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciated gideon let me go to you 1st in tel aviv and ask you your perceptions of this election cycle you know i looked at israeli media in english and of course they go through all the different platforms and ideas that the part different parties have but from my perch really far away it really looks to me is that how far right will the next government will be and how much people like or dislike bibi netanyahu is that a fair way to kind of assess this election go ahead give him. it's more than. these selection and therefore my election will only on one issue benjamin it to the oh yes or no and the choice is really between the nice right wing and the list nice right wing or if you make only sent through the right and the right it's a very small choice but that's the choice of the people of his would ok philip

going back to you donald trump. supported netanyahu when it looked like he was going to when he distance themselves from him but it was was trump kind of big gateway for netanyahu to go either for even further to the right because of course you know there were these placards all over israel with trump and netanyahu together. did trump make about poor calculation here well i think actually it was it was netanyahu who was making the calculation i think he was delivering the message that he could get virtually anything out of trump and in seeking to make that impression he was talking about a rather extreme step which would be occupying annexing. much of the west bank and he knew he could get away with it that trump would support him on this but where he was mistaken in thinking that this would be

a game changer for him on his corruption charges and other problems with them and of course it didn't work out that way ok you know you know how you let's go back to tell of eve i mean. it's going to be a new government eventually but how much different will it be from netanyahu is government and his long tenure as prime minister i mean it seems to me there's so much focus on personalities here but policy wise again from my perch very far away it looks not even nuanced go ahead in tel aviv. well i think there is a sea change in israel being made during this and you know was defeated. these really electorates decided to stop these efforts to. to undermine these really fragile and but still democracy and need that sense by giving that they always the loser and trump doesn't like losers in terms of policy

changes that would be much more difficulty but still please don't mystically there would be some changes externally will i doubt it but there is hope. getting the same question to you i mean it i guess you know one of the biggest wild cards that could be played that's never been played before in israeli politics is the arab list of 13 seats that the arabs captured in now well obviously they're not going to be made king makers or king breakers but there is the possibility something that none of us ever really thought could happen if they could be somehow maybe not be in the government but maybe support it and that changes a lot of things i would imagine go ahead gideon. i wouldn't go so far jointly which is the serve the biggest party these are the parliament after those

elections is hardly counted i mean they're really. both parties try to avoid themselves from the. left center so-called the bloke will have to use their votes but i don't see benny gantz inviting them to the government part of them wouldn't join his government but part of the might join the government but. the guns are not ready to legitimize to rare legitimize these early palestinians who invited them into the government there will try to gain the support to give them something in return it might be a small step toward normalization equalization if you want but the policy is still very very long to go you know if philip it's very interesting with the

possibility i think what we could call a mini arab spring within israel parse that with the. deal of the century what we know of it which is a farce from what i have seen so far it basically negates the very existence. the palestinians are just not there so you don't have to deal with a problem that doesn't exist but with this election cycle you're going to have some people in israel have to start thinking really hard because this is the 2nd election this year be the main parties that are in deadlock something has to change here but the question of her plan only makes things worse again from what we already know of it go ahead bill well i think that your assessment of the question or plan is is extremely accurate the course their plan is going nowhere and it will go nowhere i think that the that in washington they've been reading the tea leaves on this for some time the expected money from some of the arab states that was

supposed to pay for all of this is not forthcoming the palestinians are going to say no to it and i think with the change in government which we expect either into a unity government of some kind without netanyahu or with ganske any gann says prime minister will be significant gant says has been while not welcoming the palestinians or the arabs has basically been saying some good things about them discussing them as fellow citizens and i think it does change the mathematics if you have 13 parliamentarians who are with the arab group and they are not voting against the government that changes the mathematics of what the new administration might look like ok it's go back to yossi in tel aviv what i think we have to assume it leads under certain circumstances that netanyahu is out at least for now he's going to face an indictment in about 2 weeks we don't know the outcome about what

is his long legacy in israeli politics is that a positive or on the negative side of the ledger go ahead and tell it be. well i i think is legacy would be as far a lie. israeli politics. it must arise the israeli elected wrecked and in a way. he became a world leader on the world stage he served or brought israel to on the very joyful next sation. he has polarized the israeli society. on. trying to basically kill the israeli democracy and turn into a kind of fire new eridu on israeli version of turkish air do on and

things gawd at least harmful these many populist a little bit more than i have like 51 christians decided enough is enough and i believe that. net is on the its way to the grave to the story graveyard of those who did nothing in terms of making the change. and leaving it there are legacy to future generations you know gideon i mean i've read quite a bit about netanyahu is did he move did he was he the trailblazer moving israeli politics of the right or was he a follower realizing that it was a good vote catcher ok i mean where is he in the dynamic and what's the cause and effect relationship go ahead gideon. i just want to continue your series. yossi didn't mention one thing which for for my point of view is crucial i seeing

that and he. killed finally finally he didn't started what he killed finally the 2 state solution he put it off the table in irreversible way i don't see anyone picking it up again and this is very crucial now. i have some appreciation to not only our unlikely many of my friends because i think that he had the vision and the vision was to kill the 2 state solution i think this man does not believe neither in peace nor in any kind of relations with the arabs in general and the palestinians in particular he doesn't believe in diplomacy which leads to peace which leads to a real peace he believes only only living on the saw living god is a living on its army or its intelligence or its technology and this is

a very depressing vision but that's the thing else allusion ok philip finish up that is part of the program we're cancer him and he's no doubt of i mean he probably. as he will go down in history along in the for the people in gaza again what is the what is to change what is the continuity go ahead philip. well the continuity is i think that he has pushed the the country to the right. he may have you you could argue that he's exploited sentiment that was already there but his his particular brand of fear mongering mongering and his particular brand of of emphasizing force as a solution is something that was unique to him and i think this is something that may not be recoverable and of course a good for the commentary that he has destroyed the 2 state solution is completely accurate ok i'm going to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on israel's election state with our.

but if she warned you and i did the dishes at the bottom or those jeans nudist beach and you see me you. know when you die. you mean is i mean that is or that infants involve. a lot of people through flowing and fuzzy parts about truth it's out to both sides. of the.

cabinet that basically needs to. be a people who simply. want anybody to. join me every thursday on the alex simon chill and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you that. is a tense situation in venezuela is still all over the news the problem in venezuela is not that socialism has been poorly implemented but that socialism has been faced only implement from the inside venezuela things are different we're going to announce sanctions against petroleum to venezuela associated. in this to have a son of the moment is. that absent that political battle to stay on the path to.

the moment the focus of the whole story is a new nixon called in henry kissinger to tell him that he would not be tolerated in latin america and old terms of economic and social system could take hold and therefore the policy would be to make the chilean economy scream so wants to make the economy of venezuela screech. welcome across the uk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to mt we're discussing israel's recent elections. ok i want to go back to getting an intel of eve i want to continue a theme that you start in the 1st part of the program here. if it's we heard from

our other guests in tel aviv. the legacy of benjamin netanyahu might have damaged the israel's democracy i think a very strong argument for that here but you point out it's the end of the 2 state solution so i will ask a very obvious question and it's a question that israel gets furious about on the international stage and i suppose even internally that if there isn't a democratization that includes arabs that are israeli citizens then you do have the word that they hate apartheid now how do you square that circle go ahead gideon . it is very problematic to talk about israel as a democracy where needs. half an hour away from the studio that i'm sitting here. exists one of the most brutal military. today so within a 20 hour or without the 30 hour in it and you didn't start the occupation by all means know that it was labor which started it it was labor which established it was

labor which put it all of the power and the settler and the means to become note contemporary phenomena about the permanent federal media so 1st of all it's really problematic to talk about this one is a democracy even though now israel claims that it's not an apartheid state because of the. law of israelis quite a democratic law there is a parliament palestinian israeli palestinians are part of the parliament or d.c. is very. it is true partly for jew citizens is that he's a liberal democracy an attorney out tried to harm this but by the end of the day we are playing with words because we sold the respect to the democracy the only democracy in the middle east which refers to me as a privileged jew in this country if half an hour away from here people are living

without any rights over 50 years now what kind of them across is it's a joke it's not a democracy ok it's going to go back you know see him in tel aviv i mean is it under is this one of the legacies of netanyahu is that the 2 state solution is over so if there is no 2 state solution then there is a one state solution can israel's political right deal with a one state solution or are they going to be just like jared kushner and just pretend they're not there go ahead and tell the world there are a year from now probably would not be around. secondly israelis still salida of vital democracy. obviously the result you patient alongside these really democracy i don't think he needs story where our ear rivera's should be. moved and 1 i i would say that that's not the end of the 2 state

solution but you need. to put all that label on israel for the occupation and and for their wars it's wrong you need to for for a for an agreement the palestinians for many many years blow it time and after time so if we are very just a new beginning to maybe do a result something change and i think it's a good it's a good sign that netanyahu is going out ok philip and we were talking about the 2 states. solution i mean and all of this goes back to which i think at the end of the day my personal opinion it was just a con job that's how it's been worked out and i'm not giving any kudos to the palestinian authority because i think that they were actually. they were actually involved in seeing it failed that's a topic for another program but the united states has not done the peace process no

good because it is basically dismissed it is if there is no conflict again this hope concept of just dismissing things away and then you don't have to deal with them i mean what trump gave netanyahu is extraordinary all of it against international law by the way that american citizens are never told about in the media i would say that you know passage of american administrations and particularly the trump administration has actually hurt the prospects for settlements. for example the conflict between israel and the palestinians go ahead philip. well i think the united states has of course the the 600 pound gorilla in the room the fact is that since. the reagan administration or even before the united states has been lined up completely on the side of israel so when people talk about the peace process or peace negotiations here you have one immensely powerful state of israel backed up by the united states

debating issues with the palestinians who have no power at all and are also under occupation so you know this whole thing is a farce that's been acting out my personal belief is that the united states is singularly at blame for what's been going on the united states long ago should have acted on the policy that it claimed to support which was opposition to the israeli settlements on the west bank and never did a damn thing so the on the contrary we have an ambassador david friedman. in israel right now who was against the law against american law providing support financial and otherwise to the settlers and so this is you know this is this is ridiculous it's a farce of high order donald trump is just acting out what every other administration has done obama did not like netanyahu clearly enough but all he

could do was abstain in a vote in the u.n. on the settlements and he gave he gave netanyahu 3000000000 dollars plus every year which he didn't have to do ok feel about it maybe just one kind of qualification is that the united states had a partner bellew cooed partner that they had a partner in a party now within a state i would say because if you look at the neo cons circles around the united states they there are starts with they are ok maybe i'm quibbling here getting in. earlier you were disagreeing with our other guest in tel aviv why. because they seeing that after having 700000 settlers including east jerusalem there will be never in israeli statesman who will be able to evacuate them and without their creation you don't have any viable palestinian state you have been to stands but you don't have a viable palestinian state the minimum would be the $67.00 border and the $67.00

borders in raises from the long time ago and continuing to talk about the 2 state solution for 52 years while israel is doing everything possible to prevent it by the way there was never an israeli prime minister who really meant to put an end to the occupation all ways and means to an ease the situation and to gain more time but there was not a single israeli prime minister who meant it seriously and there was no american president ever who really wanted israel to put an end to the patient would it be i think we wouldn't have been there anymore so all together there was a coalition no matter who was the president there are tory exchange but no american president president really took measures against israel in order to push it to put an end to the patient no israeli prime minister put an end to the

settlements project and as long as those 2 things didn't happen you can take all those talking seriously except of lip service and by the end of the day we have now 70700000 settlers one of the more powerful political groups in israel nobody is going to evacuate them you have just to travel along the west bank and see how it became israeli this is irreversible and instead of continue. to talk about something which you never think we have to start to talk about. ok you know go back go to you in tel aviv so what is the alternative i've already talked about the single state solution because that's what you're that's the default position now what do you do. well i don't i don't accept. you to toss all the blame to accuse israel is the only call

tree for what is happening it's wrong these rebels. conflict has been. cultivated by due to site publishing is and days israelis that's that's why well i mean but but but but when you agree the 2 sides are not of equal power i think that's pretty i agree with you when israeli occupying power so it's obviously stronger but things are changing their reality me the least it's completely different the arab states don't care about the issue the arab states are much more concerned that these this sort of states are much more concerned that that doesn't . ok just because the arab states think differently doesn't mean the palestinians only have a right to self-determination philip let me jump in because i agree i ok i accept their force and nature and you'll be your vote i didn't say that but to put all the

blame on the israeli wrong if he doesn't lead you doesn't lead us to a solution ok well philip cooney we're all rapidly running out of time but it is the united states that is allowed israel just to kick the can down the road the you know the united states if it was determined enough without the influence of the lobby and even jello coals and all that kind of stuff there could have easily. pointed israel in the right direction and in syria would be a safer place and so would be. the middle east i would argue ok one minute let's go ahead philip. ok it's very interesting i met a congressman a couple weeks ago and we had a discussion about this and he said you know things will change only when the united states treats israel like it treats every other country and that's what i believe if the united states from the beginning had applied the same standards it was applying to south africa the same standards that was applying to other places

where there were agreed jewish human rights violations that the united states might have actually done something about it if the united states were concerned about actual american interests in the middle east it would have done something about it it would have pressured israel to change its policies but that hasn't happened the israel lobby is extremely strong and we have a president right now basically who feels that is it is easy is it is most profitable for him as a person who can deal with the status quo and that's a tragedy for americans for israelis and for palestinians couldn't have said it better myself here a lot of a lot is ahead gentlemen the government in israel new government israel has in the middle stablish you many thanks to my guest in tel aviv and in personal and thanks to our viewers for watching us here in our see you next time and remember.

the process of constructing this was to. as a bio degradable scaffold. for us. this is an incident beneath the skin when the skin is suctioned over the scaffold over a period of about 6 months you have to shoot in growth investor or as i said occurring in other words the cells the new. in your body grows into the scaffold it grows its own blood supply so now this is fully integrated as part of my yard it's a living room. floor

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