as we are recording this program moscow as i still take getting government buildings in moscow or in support of populist in the an actor who was detained during the election protests and sentenced to 3 and a half years in prison for a legit violence against law enforcement a charge that is contradicted by video evidence was deported refused to consider now the conviction buys of the russian court system is nothing new but i think the bill is ation off russian society provoke is what strikes to you the most about it i think the reaction of the called public opinion on the picture on from our coalition troops almost stripped like half of nation does prove in the same moment it was oh a huge focus on state control to be the protest isn't organic it's cosponsored from the west and so on and so on but still half of the population said that they just.

i don't like the picture of troops in the capital and i think there's a horse was disproportional it was known that the quote and that of course he's sort of a. part of social fabric in russia wheat well we are the chosen for how far we adequate for how far the situation is that and the use of force was absolutely none of it and i think apart from disapproving of the massive use of force. a lot of people in moscow and polls show that the majority of people in most crack surely support it people's right to take to the streets which i think is also an interesting indicator i think one of the features that distinguishes the current protest away from the previous ones is that it's becoming increasingly mainstream it's not just the mostly intelligentsia on non-systemic opposition anymore it's much more broad based actors journalists priests isn't that actually

a very good development that the russian society is finally becoming a subject rather than object of politics. if we compare protests and shias in the one description and protests to mosco we'll see still the pictures quite different careers and serious it's more like one of my colleagues foreign journalist a moscow characterized it as a green red or even green bro mating that this is actually these same social groups that support for example russian role in ukraine but they also care about the environment and in moscow for example it was pretty different picture it was yes it was not just what you call an intelligence it means old public noons those who have some traditionally critical of their as those who control sort of symbolic capital like the language the humanities and so on and so on but they were joined by 3 other groups 1st and then there. most interesting group in this

protest mosco activist who participate in. different forms of when a signal governing day in war in actually in mayor's office agenda they try to make it better to try to fix things and they realize that actually. the state it doesn't want them. and sometimes i think it's really about the city who doesn't want them and they are as mayors of mosco to number of stories as from when the simple government 6 years ago he initiated the war that cut sort of when the civil councils and his it was decided because this is the mayor of moscow who employed such a disproportionate force on the streets of the city and then many many theories circulating in the capital about who and why made the decision to use force in much larger numbers than ever before what's your version of it was

it was sort of a snuffle it wasn't person planned because. maybe july 4th until july realized that mayors of moscow just wanted to punish so-called opposition for spoiling his agenda because one of his most one of his biggest interest was to see . some group presented itself until gentle like on the for the mist in the duma and author of the few words complained of a actually conveying of hate speech in social media against her for for for for supporting the mayor's office she. left the race off as a family has decided to punish the opposition he didn't realize he as far as i know they didn't do any political calculations that for example we can spread the opposition but don't take it all due respect you cannot issue direct orders to.

national guards by a war there are 2 feel good. who to give orders to on national guard. first its head off how they call it a regional and a terrorist both or it's a unit ofa nation lenda service committee and it's the head of f.s.b. in moscow you know general that i think it's not going to 2nd person is mayors of moscow so you know so i did all of the if you don't know of course you can you can not you cannot use such a poor was out having consultations in the security council not in kremlin i wouldn't say in kremlin because the all domestic politics departments of common trying to stay sight of all of the of the of the whole story so i think. as far as i know 0 mayor had some visits and graham and not just the president but the head of his administration of course castro had asked for help and i don't know whether he asked for political help or he asked for it for physical force in the end we saw

what we saw now you yourself wrote about how the relatively low level of political of reps russian is one of the redeeming qualities of the current absolutely system and. this is not because the people who operate dot system are particularly soft target i think that's because they understand you dense 3rd law very well that any action is bound to produce an equal and opposite reaction why do you think they decided to sidestep this time around he didn't have public support on that there's no news as it's there if you screw the house population just doesn't interest him like that so what is this point down it means that you can go further it means you can not bring more troops and then more troops it means that you have to negotiate somehow what i see you know the scene of. what happened this could also have been a go in support of negotiation it's no when there are negotiations to sort of own

table where kremlin purdon moscow part and opposition are gathering together no but it's a symmetrical negotiations we can if you if the should have been a good case is important for you we can release in force to know if this is important they were going to release and it doesn't mean that they stopped the offense on the no one is infrastructure. they know they're playing politics now they're doing what they're supposed to what they're supposed to do like 2 months ago spread intelligencer from the lot and they spread no i mean from those most core activists who actually don't support a lot of what they just saw that they have their money. mr bill represented theirs and then go out to even to run. but they wouldn't rob knowledge playing politics defied elections produced such a counter productive result for the at least for the most come mayor i think is one silver lining in this whole story it also shows that at least as far as counting the votes goes it's relatively fair otherwise all those systemic position parties

like outlook and the communists would have gotten into the city assembly isn't that actually a pretty conspicuous slap on the wrist of those who advocated the use of force especially on the eve of the 20212024 that is in doubt approve an early task that if you try to employ force you will get the opposite of what you want. we i haven't heard i've never heard about any force can i was in front of 24 i'm in. regular politics with the number of fugitive not a question like do not approach the governing party. should we should really state duma as doing with politics or zoom of territory. they were how you design the bridge. force wasn't an option actually what they realized.

the technology of protest. sure isn't reputably and they are actually. they delayed their action so like the smart folks won't know what to do and if there's a same thing that the state did in numerous number of what is it isn't that actually no vile me who did that because. we have to explain our viewers that why is my smarts boding we we mean his call for his supporters to support any known crime anderson aligned to support but to kill or candidates we has the you know the airlines with the crown land that is too. high probability 0 win and north allies if you have on is created or is it part of the broader trend in russia of the growth of product as it's purely a change to you it's purely in the light of the credit because he build the device

or using the what we're coal effect yeah the effort to action or using it in the racial way but you can see it the same exact happening in other regions when of ali's. activities nadab friends and i think that maybe also occur weighted with the growth of national make this a distraction it's not just same thing in regional politics the part of the brands such as brands like the governor can can be elected as a member of fortune off the party turned to united russia then turned to communist then run as an independent i mean in regions it's not it's not about the party brands it's about the place within the federal center and local it's in moscow it was a pretty different thing because no one in this task was to say that i can be a broker or your protest i can build a frame i can build a device that your protest would have a real result not in terms of electoral reno your candidates but in terms of hurting mayor's office in the mayor of personal. for actually one of the valleys

tactics and i think he's very transparent about that is to diligent demise all existing institutions both local and state institutions as far as he's he and his supporters are concerned there's absolutely nothing good about the current system it has to be destroyed and built from a blank slate given the russian historical context isn't it inevitable that such a stance will be perceived as not just a threat to the security of the state but a threat to the whole survival of the state there are 2 and there is on the table there is considerable what we call go blue groups who say that we're supposed to organize. back to a phone call like it happened in spain which most of the other together the opposition has all of those out of the witness court and so on and so it was supposed to draw. road that. new liberals liberals

their agenda is simpler. so that the whole system is rigid corrupted and should be replaced. you cannot say that replacing belittle system means. to medically replace the state it brings him on the age but if you if you are what we have we have legal mechanism of changing constitution we haven't used them for 20. 6 years but actually we have in the constitution i don't think that no one is agenda is too diligent and the elections are as old as yourself since i'm talking about dili just amazing all state institutions there is he doesn't recognize anything but i just proportional use ritual force is the same thing it works the same with villages because you see there's a there's a there's a gap between something which is legitimate to something which is legal listen you're such a force is legal but it's not legitimate according to how full freshens population

i think. unfortunately at least claim that they're acting within the bounds of the law reach which is quite questionable my question is different i agree that the vollies extremely helpful in terms of keeping tabs on corruption and holding politicians feet to the fire but when he calls for burning the entire house down for the change of the constitutional order i think he actually does call for that it's not illegal to it's i would say is that now that i think i was very close to leave behind bars i would say it loud and clear until we have in constitution a little window to change a constitution it's not illegal to call for change the constitution i'm 100 percent sure that to the existing law enforcement management he's a major threat they see him as a major threat not just as a disruptor as an existential threat as somebody who can bring the stay down my question to you is that why is he still bulking of walking free when the same

system is doling out very harsh test sentences to people like the listing that i would like this for us. he has an ability to mobilize show. of support when he's in personal crisis so this is what you don't know if you're still selling the bill is a sow's institute and yes putting him behind the bar would bring you know on my estimation 6060 songs and then on moscow streets in 34 hours consenting we have to take a very very short break but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guests of the world of politics small business i'm showbiz. i'll see that.

what politicians do something to. put themselves on the line they get accepted or rejected. so if you want to be president. or something want to be that's. what you going to be cross it's like look for 3 in the morning can't be good. i'm interested always in the waters in the. first sit. down.

welcome back to worlds apart that constantine gaza nonresidents color at the carnegie moscow center consenting as we already mentioned all the climbers surrounding the moscow elections is only partially about moscow it's primarily about the upcoming elections and transit transit of power in 2024 year old dad the final dad president putin owes to the country is to you freed as much as possible from putin is the system that he himself created ave or any signs of dot already happening now. do you mark. mark or economy is. proving that a liberal as it used to be for last 20 years oh oh what you see in politics that's all that's a question of mostly reaction the situation where you steal augur on c s

o somebody who can relate. somebody who can show for the image of the future like the coaching program but at the same time in one of your recent articles you sad that on the one hand putin has been using brute force to rule the country but on the other hand you also. claimed no one fears the presidential administration any more brute force that no one fears isn't there a contradiction of terms no of course not because ministration is are going is a fish and a presidential of sorts is. go much for the work of ministration can do when distraction as a political broker is broken we don't see any form of course the nation between the government and the presidential administration. can also call direct that all can of all yeah which was. brought by the ministration and. didn't have any clue about the law it doesn't work is about equal rights activists of the

government is one thing how people relate to that is another thing and in russia traditionally the presidential administration is considered the main political institution was all that was shot. through the euro i haven't seen numbers i mean in russia we have the cycle institution that's the president personally the figure the face then we have a number of proliferated images we have popular ministers like lever for example foreign minister or short we have a number i think like sure a percent of russians it is they just don't know what presidential administration they have ok even with these sexual figure as you call it deprives them to also claim that president putin quote has lost he's let a ship now that there is a decline admittedly there is a decline in his approval ratings which some would say was to be expected given the

very unpopular retirement age reform but. has lost his leadership isn't that a beat over the top for a statistician like yourself i mean you have to base it on the numbers and the program is not in a single day. problem as it was during glistens life in the for us in text and in the original i used the tour it's very street concept i can mimic he is not the person who's not the figure who can assure the russian society that we have a future and we're going there 1st the main 3 groups that the see in main shifts in public opinion lack of trust declining of trust all public institutions short there too of period of planning the period the standard period of planning for for example european family even us eastern european family 5610 years in the in the russia you know like a dam makes trying to compare societies to the russian society i mean given they

said if you serious these eastern europe and russia you can compare to its nose in europe that is part of the european union is saying it was part of the european union just for 15 years now come on you're comparing apples and oranges consider. this tell you that russia is much better than russia is and you're going to need this in russia they are going to go as big or 3 or 4 years ago you also rode 2 for putin the period of time since 2014 has been characterized by and i'm quoting you here the gradual loss of strategic initiative and this is a very common assertion among the critics of the kremlin but i don't understand what. initiative is supposed to be making live better or at least managing it as it is a good example of the people for there is masses doesn't fall if there is no inside interest seeing as people in general. what happened was what so-called russian

middle class before the crisis and i was in a we saw growing. middle class office managers freelancers those who work general in-service know who's a russian middle class. civil servants celebrex social work. on a budget payroll those who have early retirement like celebrex considered this is changing the fabric of this is well but it's a broad try and around the world let's do this living standards are falling in the united states in europe including old europe in turkey to play money and when i haven't i haven't seen you know us a story that is trying to replace the. barker or war or american worker with american car i haven't seen this i haven't seen that for example a pentagon or president from goes publicly saying that they want to. like double the number of f.b.i.

employees that what happened in russia. happens in scales where the very nature of so chill for break is changing by the house is wondering just $42000000.00 people and it is true that per capita russia has more law enforcement officers than most of the of the large countries but you cannot replace everyone in russia with law enforcement i mean that you are exaggerating not exaggerating in terms of who are the russian middle class now but let's let's go back to 75 percent of g.d.p. produces state controlled or parra states or part of states going to prison it's not my stimulation it's just a nation of international monetary for moral way and so on. there's too much state in social fabric and economic for big there's too much state and there were going back to my question about the strategic initiative. i think for what putin sees as he says he can issue. a couple of national projects that he put forth

as sort of the actions of growth and i know that you. view them with i guess quite a lot of contempt is that i'm sure you know them some of them pretty important. don't they qualify as strategic initiatives. some of them. are supposed to change the. works. for. the state works how people leave i think that that was what doesn't work. why is that not working because we have this sluggish growth over income for us. we know and then know pretty well that when you pull one group book money from state budget into record i mean how much do we get in g.d.p. lessons. from my own life i don't know if you're aware of that but if you days ago

older vaccination records for most children were digitalized and like a big thank you but it's a huge thing for me as a as a mom over all the small key it's freeing me off the rest tape if i ever end up with my kid in the emergency room doctor will give doctors a chance to assess his health better isn't died a small dot is making you live. there regular work of the government with national priorities and our experience our feelings about the future because when you're saying about their household the same if i call you know if i say that it's normal that you have a digital right to operate your ex and your kids direction nation online it's pretty it may be may be pretty normal but it took a lot of time and a lot of money to put that in practice yes no it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't say the government doesn't doesn't deserve the credit for that it's normal for government may deserve the credit for 2 things but i mean this is just one example

damage and the quality and poor that's that's the agenda over the actions of 20202024 so forth they built pretty modern state they have. competent. they're all of very smart people deputy prime ministers it is full of and so on and so on and they locally they can make things better why should they give me give them credit for small improvements the big improvement is. a rise of a living you know this is this is big improvement this is important to everybody and. we're just 7 or whatever well you know it's other can kick in here can he fight for it it can fight in equality can he boost economic growth can do. well the 1st i could assert it doesn't mean that state is fully unaffected i've never said that state can be effective they can do very effective reforms but it's

not an agenda well i guess it's a difference between seeing as half full or half empty russians will tend to be more risk averse than the westerners and i think many people when you and counter something that wasn't there before you tend to appreciate that a bit more than perhaps and i mean the you're smiling but even you know on the for the master who whom you manage she's a non-state actor who managed to put in an entire system of palliative care that beach was never in brusha and she's now given a mandate to expand across the whole country is that also a little thing i mean that's absolutely because it doesn't since it doesn't change the way how you treat all minority groups says nothing about their weight how you treat the general population how you see the whole of the general population that ends up in those hospice is the general

population sends up and those hospices because of many many reasons but the general population raise a lack of income and huge and more must. absolutely dramatic and the quality and then you say the state oh most somebody maybe so and so it's a question of what i'm saying is it something ok thank you thank you to saying thanks to a person who thinks that but it's not it's not it's not the reason for a plan so that reason for all plus but i think it's a reason for a cautious optimism and i think what i've been trying to argue throughout this program is that the decrease of authority on the part of the presidential administration may be compensated by the increasingly empowered civil society not only on the streets but also taking part in the you know in the fabric of social life but consenting that we have to leave it there because we know for a short time i really appreciate you being on the program thank you thank you. i

mean here is kim keep this conversation going in our social media pages as for me and the team we hope to see you again same place same time and it will it's a part of. their. negative interest rates are telegraphing a drop in population if you look at forest consumption in the present to feed the body's game that means you've got this generation will have to be sacrificed and so you know humans have not really psychologically evolved from the days when i just

used to outright. children for the gods or their books during that generation see for the policy gods. that a huge. if you don't. go. to the. blog on the cool sudoku cold recall no culture going to does it cause you know the false soldier you can see the show moved on to the build system some momentum a slew of knots in the ocean you're going to you're going to do with the book you just wrote a song could i mean she saw that you moved down a small squad will not keep you down at this time out on top. of the need to promote. the new wonderful school even if the good contingent committed to you

shows you the cool. ripples from the way. the. kale sprague's out in paris as thousands of rockies confronts crowds of antigovernment protests amid scenes of looting and found in the. trade it's america's largest bank a challenge with price manipulation collins's says they have been getting away with it for me it's. eric holder who was the attorney general under obama when this 1st came to light so. market manipulation and fraud were important for the american economy and that is the attorney general could not prosecute. and the u.s. senate.