so. just. playing. and very well might continue watching us in such. 70 years ago this week china started down the path of communist rule over the past 2 decades china has emerged or rather reemerged as a leading world power rivaling the us the communist party can rightly claim a string of stunning successes but challenges remey what's next for china is extraordinary revolution.

well welcome to worlds apart according to karl marx history repeats itself 1st this tragedy 2nd this far but in the case of american politics it's fast turning into a sitcom not only the characters but even the situations remain invariably locked up another gave this time ukraine gave taking over washington is there still a chance of ever moving it has on the world's. problems well to discuss that i'm now joined by the meat that is so slow of deputy director of the center for comprehensive european and international studies at the higher school of economics in moscow miter it's good to talk to you thank you very much for your time hello nice to meet you now we are recording this conversation on the sidelines of the

discussion forum which was set up as a serious academic platform to deal with the issues of global importance in the year after year those issues take a back seat to the twists and turns of the american politics and i'm pretty sure it's going to be the case this year to as much as we all like to talk about the changing world order the american this. bill commanding everybody's attention on me well absolutely. the u.s. for the u.s. domestic politics the stalemate that exists there is i think one of the most important problems of international relations because it paralyzes us foreign force a big signal it becomes the result of the domestic fight. second layer you know these guys it's all the global problems because the the u.s. is still the most powerful country in the world but instead of fixing other problems. its approach towards this problems becomes the result of

the mystic interplay which of course does nords contributes to the stability or govern the ability in the world speaking about this interplay and others you believe that not much. from this impeachment proceedings in terms of that intended goal that i'm likely to take down but do you think they may actually work the other way around and solidify his re-election chances well i think there is some chance for a doc over abusing his prospects for reelection although mult very chances for that you are absolutely right you know. even when the crime is obvious the experience of previous impeachments in the united states which were to lose shows that even in these situations it is unlikely to be resulted into the real

impeachment because the senate nor the calls are representatives of the sides and there is the republican majority in the sound of and what is most important donald trump is supported by a bald 90 percent of the republican electorate so i think no one from serious republican politicians would dare in these circumstances to vote against the president however. of course the by the way thing the launch of the impeachment procedure is already the recognition of high chances for donald trump to be reelected democrats understand that it is very difficult for them to be trump you wrote recently had that allegations against trump on much weaker than even those put forth against bill clinton back in 9098 why do you think the democrats are taking their risk because it involves one of their own every time dimension in pitch when they imply joseph biden in their rather yes you know unflattering

situation well for 2 reasons i think reason number wind that the sign of despair because indeed it is difficult for the democrats to be trumped in the current conditions and they are looking for basically it every plainsman 2 of the miller investigation miller of this to gauge and failed to prove them and they are now looking for the other ways to still accused trump of some crimes not just delusional with ukraine and the forceful you know intervention of ukraine into american domestic elections but also something something else they need these sorts of investigations you know to pressure trump secondly this is an attempt by the democrats to charm the discourse a bold biden sort of all in. the most equality x. and biden score option this iteration is very risky for the democrats i mean this

bill investigation of biden sort of old warped world the russian mels forewards world the reasons for biden's demands to get out of the former ukrainian general prosecutor so they want to change you know their retreat from the investigation of by them to the investigation of the op i also heard one of the. russian expert voice a very counter intuitive hypothesis that i want to run by you he suggested that by launching the impeachment proceedings the democrats and the congress are trying to undermine not so much trying but those of by himself and the establishment wing of the democratic party which as we all remember played saw what dirty against the socialist the wing party in the run up to the 2016 presidential elections by openly disfavoring bernie sanders defined it claws a bow well i think so there is no unanimity within the democratic camp by the way this overall investigation and this candlelit related to the us role in the

ukrainian domestic politics might serve a little result into. biden's defeat in the primaries them one of the most forcible winners of the democratic campaign will be bertha saunders or perhaps elizabeth warren ballpark absolute the elizabeth warren which will be going to go for development i would say for the democratic party because in the in the traditional democratic establishment ease the problem of the democratic party these still allows donald trump time and again to claim that the additional elite caught up to the it represented by hillary clinton and george of by them they want to reveal which they wants to people's. votes and basically the more people's discomfort them and tired of the new liberal boluses so i think it will be

healthy to live for the democratic part of the if someone else wants the. primaries and that will be then the very interesting final election in november of next year you also suggested that 2020 elections may be the dirtiest and the fiercest elections in american recent history and stuff like their polling is how flayed fairly and till now i mean we have seen a number of. methods being used against donald trying to. sabotage open ended investigation now the impeachment proceedings any other tricks that he's opponents have been to use so far apart from physical harm and plain assassination impeachment is already i would say the use of weapons of mass destruction in american domestic politics because that's the final instrument that you can use against the acting president and i think that indeed the elections will be most. in the recent american history because the stakes are incredibly high for

both sides for donald trump this stake is not just implementation of his domestic politics but actually avoiding prison and avoiding the direct groom in the trial because most of the democrats would want to put him to trial if he's more longer the president of the united also for charges of the charges or for instance preventing you know justice during the meal or in this the geisha remember robert moore when he gave his the results of his investigation he said the only reason why the charge of all of. investigation was not put against normal trump is because he was the acting president of the overseas airport doesn't contain any so who had the evidence of trying to track them in whatever they can come out of that would not have taken its actions you know the democrats want revenge the democrats wants to

depict trump as a temporary aberration they want you know to come in just. above him and it is easier to do it over a private citizen than the president of the united states so fort drum the stake is his personal freedom after all now democrats for the democrats the stake is voiding even deeper a crisis of the pie. to him basically the survival of the traditional elite it's the problem of survival for both sides because if prompt once for the 2nd time it will be no longer possible for the traditional leads to clean the prompt is that the emperor ration who became president as a result of the intervention of an alien for him for income for in the country they will have to accept the nature all sense of discontent in the american society and all the problems that have been ignored for many years and actually which brought donald trump into the white house now you mention there were the words survival

several times and historically there have been more than 30 attempts to kill an incumbent of former president 4 of them resulted in in the killing of the acting head of state all of them were politically motivated without then sharing too much into the reality of conspiracy theories do you think that method of doing politics is fully relegated to history or let's say foreign policy because i mean it we know that american intelligence agencies have conducted a couple of assess a nation at times including in a relatively recent history but not the massacre well my assumption is that these scenarios quite plausible. i can't say i don't claim that there is a very big risk of donald trump to be assessed and they need that but we shouldn't exclude that because american security services american counterintelligence and intelligence are also waging war against donald trump right then this whistle

blower who made this plea against the acting president you know the. the resistance of the deep state within the trump of ministration that you all proves the pain this struggle is not just between trump and democrats it's also between trump and the traditional establishment which is represented. also and primarily by the security services by the bureaucrats they are using different methods still on the mind the president from the altar rights. to these bleeds over investigation which basically live in numerous media bigs there is very good they have positive vibe about every n.f.l. coming out of some religious sorts of media leaks eve all these methods because in the fact of even they even solved that all these scandals the minds of jewels of by them more than normal trump which i think will be the case i won't excludes that

the eventually some more extreme version so full of the can strong go instruments of political struggle will be utilized while mr before we are accused of being conspiracy theorists let's take a very short break we'll be back in just a few moments stay chant. in 2040 you know bloody revolution to include the demonstrations going from being relatively peaceful political protests to be creasing the violent revolution is always spontaneous or is it still loyal to a pretty meaningless put video of the new bill is that idea spilling even to the former ukrainian president recalls the events of $24.00. those who took. invested

over $5000000000.00 to assist ukraine in these another goal that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic. politicians do so. they put themselves on the line. they did accept the reject. so when you want to be president if you. want. to go right to the press this is like the 3 of them or can't be good that i'm interested in the wives of the.

welcome back to worlds apart with us live deputy director of the center for comprehensive european and international studies at the higher school of economics in moscow before the break we started talking about impeachment. proceedings which already prompted the 1st high profile resignation i'm talking about with volcker you're used to direct them american policy in ukraine there are some signs that he was also directing the ukrainian politics in america how big of a deal is that well 1st to identify and manifest the depth of the scandal he's already accused of putting pressure against the ukrainian authorities and also he wants to emphasize that the he has nothing to do with this pressure actually he personally and politically believed in the necessity of supporting ukraine the gain structure. does he does not want to be associated with trump's.

putting pressure on ukraine secondly apparently claiming that russia is more important than ukraine and that is in the sort of interest of the united states to get along with russia whereas ukraine is an obstacle so this goes against the political views or m.p. your research. but i wonder if it's just the matter of him disagreeing with the president because the same unidentified whistleblower complained about your. interactions with the ukrainian president. has suggested that mr walker was often acting not on the instructions of donald trump or secretary of state might compare his direct boss but at the request of the ukrainians for example the close aide to president selenski and the moc given how easily accusations of treason fly in washington does he have her reason to be concerned about the ethics of his own behavior rather than his association with donald trump do legal view point of

course yes and what you just described is again proves my thesis that there is a very strong resistance among american bureaucracy against the policies of the president and they apparently sabotage and could have walker was largely involved in this sub adarsh by pursuing not only not donald trump's presidency visit the ukraine but. which volcker can see that right and which reflected the interests of certainly ukrainian politicians you know ukraine in its current state from the political perspective for you think volcker will be protected by the by the democrats by their establishment republicans which still exist because for them ukraine is the friend everyone who supports ukraine is also a friend. of the right. i think volcker will not be

accused right walter will be used as an instrument against donald trump it's interesting you say that because i mean if we compare this situation to something that happened to for example general flynn who was a man who was decimated politically for simply appearing at artie's dinner and sitting at one table with live near put of a doubt even exchanging any. he wore it's imagine him running involved in trying to arrange meetings with u.s. presidents associates all be have of president bush and i mean he would have been in prison so the end of his days were over the whole russia gate was artificial from the very beginning. it was a huge hypocrisy from the very beginning because lots there is lots of foreign intervention into american domestic politics you know they could easily and it's legalized i mean there was and this is legalized last thing that it was 'd being absolutely again they could easily look at these really role in the american

domestic and foreign policy is right no well 1st russia is considered as adversarial poll secondly the fight is not even 1st the 1st and foremost about russia it's against donald trump because the presidency of donald trump undermines the supremest see the rule of the additional establishment elites in american politics now while walker is departure at least the trumpet ministration pretty much without any senior official with the expertise in these part of the world i mean fiona hill dan coats. john bolton they're all gone the united states still has no i'm baster in ukraine and they're merican ambassador to russia is said to resign within the next couple of days in october 3rd how do you take it does russia have reason to be concerned about these brain drain when it

comes to u.s. policy in ukraine. on the one him the departure of volcker could have played a positive role because indeed from the russian perspective the role of all code was apparently negative right walker prevent the implementation of the means and persuaded ukraine to continue to subsidize the implementation on the other camp in the current. situation of scandal i truly don't believe that the departure of walter will matter for the american pull the seat towards ukraine because there is no policy in conditions of the current scandal impeachment investigation the american policy towards ukraine will be paralyzed it will be ultimately dependent on the believe that goal domestic political interplay on the huge towards the impeachment in these conditions there is nothing that washington can or would want to do viz of ukraine i think the white house will try its best you know to be in

that cell from the ukraine the i'm go in general you know the the absence of the interlocutor will not change the situation to read the rest are going to celebrate it you know all this that you know for this into the local has to be implemented but as it comes to russia well you are absolutely right the well 1st the role of domestic politics in american foreign policy is a problem for us russian relations and for international security absence of experts. negotiators experience negotiators on control on some of the issues is a problem of course for for us russian relations in this situation we well we have to strengthen the mechanisms of communication where still experts exist so what i'm talking about we need to strengthen mil to mil negotiations. i think there

is no actually very it is left a absolutely independent go yes i mean we haven't seen multiple departures from the pentagon general gerar some of and general dunford they need on a regular basis primarily discussing syria we need to multiply and broaden the spectrum of the discussion from just syria to. the flanks of us of us russian revolution not speaking off which over the last couple of months has made several russia friendly statements he offered to bring moscow back into the d. 7 than during his meeting with the landscape he suggested that the russian ukraine with quote solve that problem together reach a thing. that may mean ukraine. all of us who seems a little bit less constrained on our on the russia track how far could it go well unfortunately the spog of ukraine gate limits and the

potential for trump's positive steps and policy toward small scale you know from the very beginning donald trump did not consider russia as a natural enemy of the united states he has a strategic vision which is that china is the arrival in the major competitor and for basically of the united states not russia donald trump understands that it is quite difficult for the united states to successfully come this policy of dual containment of these 2 great pause so he would want basically to improve relations with russia as the secondary great power in comparison to china in his opinion in order to a little bit diminish and reduce the intensity of russian cheney's relations and thus simplify the brymer objective for the u.s. strategy campaign meant off of china and of course he regards the ukraine

conflict as an obstacle. trump was absolutely sincere when he said that russia and ukraine should resolve that issue in ukraine should take more initiative in resulting in resolving the issue because that will allow some reparation with. the u.s. . why did norman from do with them because of the end of the ruler investigation right puce ties were completely his cancer were completely tied when the moon list again was going on so he can see the end of that investigation allows some greater freedom of maneuver for finally to implement the policies that he wanted to implement from the very beginning however we have the new scandal right we have the impeachment investigation income in the impeachment investigation again shows russia as the enemy earlier this year you gave interesting talk at the center for strategic and international studies in washington in which he talked about russia

u.s. tensions as a new cold war which has existential significance for both sides and which cannot be resolved through a compromise he suggested that it would only add to with one of the sides reconsidering its role in the world. do you think it's going to be. well i hope that it will be the u.s. transformation that the transformation of the u.s. foreign policy which in my understanding is already on the fold it started with the obama administration donald trump continues that with the other means but it is also the reconsideration of the u.s. role in the world i would refer you to the leader's speech that donald trump gave in the u.n. general assembly right it's the manifesto of this new approach well i think that the major challenge the do night is states faces is that the u.s. legs historical experience of equal coexistence with other great powers in the multipolar world while staying while staying integrated into the international

order the american experience is either isolationism or global leadership now none of these options are acceptable and the united states should learn for the 1st time in the hew story to call manage international orders with other great powers ease impossible to roll mild i believe at the back. the u.s. must in the does the way they're trying in a very painful and contradictory way but the u.s. is a liberated you know lauralee despite its will but learning this practice of coal management of the world with in conditions of political and very quickly if i may you also suggest that in that speech that russia's 2024 problem which is the problem of the issue of power transition for a lot of a particular successor also very much depends on their cuteness of tensions with the united states how come how is it possible i mean moscow is so proud of its

sovereignty and yet you're suggesting that the most consequential decision of a generation of will ultimately depend on its relationship with washington well i think the international context and the us russian relations is one of the most important elements of this international context made a huge impact on the russian domestic evolution the historical mission i think of law the middle portion is not just to make russia a great power again but also to make it illegitimate a great power right to compel the other powers to recognize russia and the except russia as a legitimate independent great power of global significance we are logged there we are in conditions of precisely the new called war do knighted states still try to leverage the russia back into its strategic defeat into mind in mind this and do wants to transform russia both in terms of its foreign policy in the terms of its

domestic politics this pressure of the us the russian confront the asian i think is is impacting the russian domestic development in the very strong way in the that it will be a more difficult you know for for russia to manage its transition in conditions of the new cold war with the united states. if we. went by the united states by the west in general in the role as the legitimate great paul what i think the 20th winter for. would be much more smooth and easy and. while we have to live it there thank you very much for being with us today my pleasure. i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope to syria again same place same time here on worlds apart.

join me every thursday on the all excitement show and i'll be speaking to guests of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. oh. right.

now you're. running a putin jokingly says russia will interfere in the next us presidential election. you can. do that so we could cheer you up properly but don't tell anybody ok. fears of toxic pollution the group the french city of ruin after a massive fire at a chemical factory. a scientific journal withdraws a study trying to claim the syrian government was to blame for a chemical attack in 2017 south of the article attracted fierce criticism. latest on those stories head over to r.t. dot com stay with us now for cross talk on the 70th anniversary of communist china .