all things are considered lavelle all across the middle east and beyond there are large scale protests are all things are considered to live well all across the middle east and beyond there are large scale protests and growing political tickle in the instability in many many countries these the old old ways ease of doing business with only enrichment privileged elite meet while while the products prospects for the many many are our future few and far in between the elites have answers for today's growing problems between the elites have answers for today's growing problems. stocking global instability i'm joined by my good. instability i'm joined by my guest james jaharis and watch and he's a former u.s.

diplomat and former advisor to the u.s. says james jatra soon watch and he's a former u.s. diplomat and former advisor to the u.s. senate republican leadership in plymouth we have he is the executive editor of the news that republican leadership in plymouth we have he is the executive editor of the news website 21st century wired dot com and in norman we cross to joshua landis he website 21st century wired dot com and in norman we cross to joshua landis he is director of the center of middle east studies at the university of oklahoma all right gentlemen he is director of the center of middle east studies at the university of oklahoma all right gentlemen cross talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate joshua let me go to you 1st talk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate joshua let me go to you 1st in norman all across the globe we have iraq we have we have lebanon in norman all across the globe we have iraq we have we have lebanon we have. lee we have many other places around the world plus we have the

whole have chile we have many other places around the world plus we have the whole division over bragg's it in the u.k. we have the division in the united states has a lot of asian over bragg's it in the u.k. we have the division in the united states there's a lot of instability out there but i want to talk about the specific country of lebanon just to start it off here instability out there but i want to talk about the specific country of lebanon just to start it off here a lot of people say that it is the bellwether for the region what happens there a lot of people say that it is the bellwether for the region what happens there 1st is an indication of what possibly and probably will happen in a number of other kind or 1st is an indication of what possibly and probably will happen in a number of other countries in the region how do you reflect upon that go ahead joshua well i think you're right trees in the region how do you reflect upon that go ahead joshua. well i think you're right lebanon is one of the is the 3rd most

indebted country in the world riyadh salah lebanon is one of the is the 3rd most indebted country in the world riyadh salame a the head of the central bank said to the country will crash economically if these protests may the head of the central bank said to the country well will crash economically if these protests go on much longer but the protests are in many ways i think arrests go on much longer but the protests are in many ways i think a reflection of a tremendous change in the world a an income flexion of tremendous change in the world a an income gap that is yawning but i mean rich and poor and we can see that from a gap that is yawning but i mean rich and poor and we can see that from across the world you know europe is the most equal part of the world it across the world you know europe is the most equal part of the world at 30 percent of wealth is held by

the top 10 percent but the middle east 30 percent of wealth is held by the top 10 percent but the middle east is the worst it's 61 percent of all wealth is held by the top 10 list is the worst it's 61 percent of all wealth is held by the top 10 percent now russia and america are hovering in the middle but 2 percent now russia and america are hovering in the middle but but it's that you know the world is becoming more and more unequal and but it's that you know the world is becoming more and more unequal and i think in places where you have bad governments like lebanon iraq egypt i think in places where you have bad governments like lebanon iraq egypt syria you're seeing this kind of explosion of syria you're seeing this kind of. of real you know there's not enough jobs there

is bad government people are robbing at the top real you know there's not enough jobs there is bad government people are robbing at the top and the public feels like they're getting a very bad deal and they're up in arms and the public feels like they're getting a very bad deal and they're up in arms you know patrick and i did everything that joshua to said there but we have these you know patrick and i did everything that joshua just said there but we have these ruling elites as i said in my introduction you know still doing business as usual the old ways here ruling elites as i said in my introduction you know still doing business as usual the old ways here and this is a real wake up call and one more thing we look at the disparity in income and this is a real wake up call and one more thing we look at the disparity in income we can look at the usefulness of a lot of these countries a lot of people. and we can look at the usefulness of a lot of these countries a lot of people. under 18 and what prospects do they have here but my issue is with

governance there are 18 and what prospects do they have here but my issue is with governance here what's it going to take because as joshua pointed out here this is this can explode here what's it going to take because as joshua pointed out here this is this can explode it is exploding go ahead patrick you know this is a very difficult topic to do it is exploding go ahead patrick you know this is a very difficult topic to kind of get your head around because there's so many uprising zork does so much a kind of get your head around because there's so many uprising is or does so much political unrest happening simultaneously and i think there's a tendency by the media by political political unrest happening simultaneously and i think there's a tendency by the media by political commentators by economists and political economist to try to commentators by economists and politico. economists to try to find some generalized terms to sort of describe what's like

a global find some generalized terms to sort of describe what it's like a global phenomenon i think that was a mistake that the west made with the arab spring put phenomenon i think that was a mistake that the west made with the arab spring by putting it all into one kind of soup and i think the reality is you have you have a different ng it all into one kind of soup and i think the reality is you have you have different aspects and different characteristics with each of these there aren't aspects and different characteristics with each of these there are commonalities however if you want to talk about overarching frameworks for commonalities however if you want to talk about overarching frameworks for analyzing this you've got post colonial identity issues you've got post colonial border for analyzing this you've got post colonial identity issues you've got post colonial border mapmaking issues that are still plaguing places like the middle

east all the way but mapmaking issues that are still plaguing places like the middle east all the way back from war one you've got neo liberal policies elian of neo liberal back for more old war one you've got neo liberal policies elian lasy of neo liberal policies you have u.s. meddling which will go under the banner of an policies you have u.s. meddling which would go under the banner of imperialism you could say u.s. foreign policy this is also a big big issue here realism you could say u.s. foreign policy this is also a big big issue how that effects and how it has affected a lot of these countries in regions and you how that effects and how it has affected a lot of these countries in regions and you also have the failure of soviet era collectivist so show a could also have the failure of soviet era collect. social economic structures

and dependency issues and also dependency nomic structures and dependency issues and also dependency issues with all of these countries economically i mean you look at a country like lebanon on issues with all of these countries economically i mean you look at a country like lebanon they have absolutely nothing that they produce they import everything they have absolutely nothing that they produce they import everything they are economically completely dependent on things like foreign aid and an ngo sector nominally completely dependent on things like foreign aid and an ngo sector economy that sort of drives the middle class in that country and that's just one example our economy that sort of drives the middle class in that country that's just one example so it's it is very difficult i think hong kong is also has been missed so it's it is very difficult i think hong kong is also has been mischaracterized by the press because it's it wasn't just characterized by the

press because it wasn't just an uprising to do with class this had something to do with change this was uprising to do with class this had something to do with change this was kind of an imported revolution this is indicative of the into individual i mean imported revolution this is indicative of the into individualized young middle class global citizen yet that exist young middle class global citizen yet that exists virtually their identity from social media and i think that also drives it justs virtually their identity from social media and i think that also drives that change drives it but they don't know where to go with this change well the political organizing isn't there the change drives it but they don't know where to go with this change well the political. organizing isn't there that the ideas aren't there to go anywhere with it you know what you patrick you just did

a ph d. on t.v. the ideas aren't there to go anywhere with it you know what you patrick you just did a ph d. on t.v. in about 3 minutes that's amazing to me let me go to james now you know i gan you know that this has a lot to do with expectations and i think that you know patrick was hit the nail being about 3 minutes easing to me let me go to james now you know i can you know that this has a lot to do with expectations and i think that you know patrick was hit the nail on the head there and b. people being so interconnected is well here on the head there and b. people being so interconnected is well here but you know what what we have here is we we have global elites that are not but you know what what we have here is we we have global elites that are not delivering they're doing quite well and they don't have any solutions here and it delivering they're doing quite well and they don't have any solutions here and at the same time you have a lot of people protesting it in more than protesting out of the fact same time you

have a lot of people protesting it in more than protesting out of the fact that they don't see that they have a future here and that is a toxic mixture go ahead james that they don't see that they have a future here and that is a toxic mixture go ahead james it is that i think those are the making of some of the factors we see in common with these things and then it is that i think those are the making of some of the factors we see in common with these things and then as we all know that there are disparate causes like in chile it's transportation prices as low as we all know that there are disparate causes like in chile it's transportation prices in lebanon it was communications and cell phones and what's up and things like that i could but it was communications and cell phones and whatsapp and things like that i can't help but wonder though peter that what more is there that meets the i can't help but wonder though peter that what. more is there that meets the eye i always wonder why for example some protests in some

countries get very far i always wonder why for example some protests in some countries get very favorable treatment from the global media which sarah shares the same neo lift a verbal treatment from the global media which sarah shares the same neo liberal ideology is what these people are supposedly protesting against in many cases and other barrel ideology is what these people are supposedly protesting against in many cases and other cases they don't get such good press for example i've noticed in all of this the cases they don't get such good press for example i've noticed in all of this very few people mention sort of the the granddaddy of all this in the last year or so which is the yellow very few people mentioned sort of the the granddaddy of all this in the last year or so which is the yellow vests in france which i think very much were a working class phenomenon against infests in france which i think very much were a working class phenomenon against the very things we're describing but they're bad

you see because they're there or they're there they're not really the very things we're describing but they're bad you see because they're there or they're there they're not really they're the bad kind of populist as they pose to what's wrong kong that's going to go on the poppy they're the bad kind of populist as they pose to what's wrong kong that's going to go on the populous the kids in hong kong are good ok that in the in the yellow vests or are disco yeah kids in hong kong are good ok that in the in the yellow vests or are disco yeah exactly they're dependent it's hard to get we should say about spain they have. that's right there to pay for it we should say about spain they have it that's right and if the catalogs are protesting with that's good but if spaniards who want spain to stay together are protesting well that's bad so i think there's i can't help but i don't know if you know if the catalogs are protesting with that's good but if spaniards who want spain to stay together are protesting well that's bad so i think. i can't help but

suspect that there's a there's a thumb on the scale and terms of our preferred but suspect that there's a there's a thumb on the scale and terms of our perceptions that options i keep waiting for for a better are not all are not all me to tell reality which way the telling lies about which ones are the good times and which are the bad ones. but he can keep his mouth shut as far as i'm concerned the bad ones. he can keep his mouth shut as far as i'm concerned joshua you know you know. patrick marty martin. you u.s. involvement particularly in the middle east here where you know constantly putting pressure on the lebanese government involvement particularly in the middle east here where you know constantly putting pressure on the lebanese government to get rid of hezbollah that is elected to the offices and to get rid of hezbollah that is elected to the offices across the country as

a great deal of popularity and then that the in the in the end then across the country as a great deal of popularity and then that the in the in the end then like threatening turkey's economy and things like that i mean this doesn't make things any threatening turkey's economy and things like that i mean this doesn't make things any better i mean constantly using the dollar in the in the financial system to punish better i mean constantly using the dollar and the use in the financial system to punish countries around the world that just takes more options off the table doesn't it go ahead joshua countries around the world that just takes more options off the table doesn't it go ahead joshua. it does you know look at sanctions is a very brutal brutal response it does you know look at sanctions is a very brutal brutal response to trying to regulate refine to your foreign pos to trying to regulate refine to your foreign policy because it hits

people right across the board it is collective punishment in the worst way and we'll see because it hits people right across the board it is collective punishment in the worst way and we're seeing that in iran with sanctions on iran which of cause iran to escalate are seeing that in iran with sanctions on iran which have caused iran to escalate violence because they're not going to take it lying down and syria's and desperate violence because they're not going to take it lying down and syria is in desperate straits and now the united states is eager to take the oil which syria needs the straits and now the united states is eager to take the oil which syria needs in order to rebuild and lebanon of course the u.s. has been in order to rebuild and lebanon of course the u.s. has been debating whether they should withdraw all foreign aid to lebanon debating whether they should withdraw all foreign aid to lebanon because hizbollah is part

of the government but you know the lebanese the elite because hizbollah is part of the government but you know the lebanese elite has been. sucking money out of this system for a long time has been. sucking money out of this system for a long time and and you know it would be terrible if $11.00 on it collapses i think the whole world and and you know it would be terrible if 11 on it collapses i think the whole world understands that and nobody wants lebanon to collapse because it really isn't the sort of loans understands that and nobody wants lebanon to collapse because it really isn't the sort of loans. of the middle east where people can retreat to and find some of the middle east where people can retreat to and find some kind of comfort some kind of a sort of leaven teen playground on one hand some kind of comfort some kind of a sort of leaven teen playground on one hand it's a playground but on the other hand it said it's

a refuge for all kinds of thinking and it's that playground but on the other hand it's a it's a refuge for all kinds of thinking middle easterners who can't find a place in their own countries so it would be in the middle easterners who can't find a place in their own country so it would be terrible if that if it collapses if it if it runs into bankruptcy which it could terrible if that if it collapses if it if it runs into bankruptcy which it could do at any moment and. it's hard to see how they're going to how the lebanese are good do at any moment and. it's hard to see how they're going to how the lebanese are going to really sort out their economic problems because when we look at the arabs going to really sort out their economic problems because when we look at the arab spring more generally which was framed of course as we just heard you know bring more generally which was framed of course as we've just heard you know framed in terms of democracy. it there really hasn't been

any framed in terms of democracy. it there really hasn't been any serious economic discussions about how these how the middle east are serious economic discussions about how these how the middle eastern countries can get out of this terrible income gap the bad governance and countries can get out of this terrible income gap the bad governance the corruption and that's what's going to take and if we don't really know the answers to this the corruption and that's what's going to take it is we don't really know the answers to that. and people are desperate but these movements that have been run by social media which are easy and people are desperate but these movements that have been run by social media which are easy to gather together yet don't have a leadership and that is something to see to gather together yet don't have a leadership and that is something that's playing the middle east it's good on the

one hand because it means that you can't play in the middle east it's good on the one hand because it means that you can't read press them but it's bad on the other hand because when it comes time to taking control press them but it's bad on the other hand because when it comes time to taking control they can't do it you know any and i guess let me go to patrick before we go to the break here me well they can't do it you know any and i guess let me go to patrick before we go to the break enemy we heard the term arab spring i always called the sunni winter and it's only getting worse here how do we heard the term arab spring i always call the sunni winter and it's only getting worse here how do we fight the bomb that patrick go ahead sure i think joshua just touched on something that is very important that patrick go ahead sure i think joshua just touched on something that's very important he's to he's talking about you know no leadership with these virtual movements that written he's to he's talking about you know no leadership with these virtual movements that really exist are driven by social media no and so you have

ideologically exist are driven by social media no and so you have ideological people in old political elite reminisce from the the previous old left screaming in the corner for attention saying over here over here people in the old one political leader leading man in that is from this and the no he is old left screaming in the corner for attention saying over here over here i'm going to be leading this and no one's paying attention because that's not what young people are looking for what they want what they were looking for was once paying attention because that's not what young people are looking for what they want what they were looking for was a busy. it's what the old left was looking for as well of a voice for the voiceless they found visibility it's what the old left was looking for as well a voice for the voiceless they found that voice online but unfortunately it's individualized and it's reflective on that voice online but unfortunately it's individualized and it's reflective of an adamant adamant eyes to society and this

is what the united states has exported an adamant adamant allies to society and this is what the united states has exported this kind of corporate ties to political identity that replaced class identity in the us and is kind of corporate ties to political identity that replaced class identity in the us and nato is out and this is all that i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue to hold that thought and this is all that i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on global instability stay. more discussion on global instability stay.

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and a very warm welcome to you you're watching us in seattle. and a very warm welcome to you you're watching us inside. and this. and this.

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more than any. more than any natural. welcome back across top we're all. welcome back across top where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing global instability. all

things considered i'm peter lavelle to remount we're discussing global instability . ok let's go back to james here you know. ok let's go back to james here you know there was a great song i think the clash there saying that you know you should i say there was a great song i think the clash there saying that you know you should i stay or should i go ok and i think that's becoming the motto of the of the trump and stay or should i go ok and i think that's becoming the motto of the trump and ministrations attitude towards syria which i this a diminished ration attitude towards syria which i. admit it's a dismal policy i mean and we could do talking about it here but i think it's

a dismal policy i mean we could do talking about it here but i think there's broadly speaking i think there is a sense that the u.s. will be there is broadly speaking i think there is a sense that the u.s. will and it will withdraw from the middle east you know of course will be the goal and it will with the drop. from the middle east of course they'll be the. grahams out there and they'll be the tom cotton's and people of the. grahams out there and they'll be the tom cotton's and people like that they want to keep the united states in the middle east but i think the writing is on the wall here like that they want to keep the united states in the middle east but i think the writing is on the wall here that itself is creating instability because so much dependency the u.s. has created that itself is creating instability because so much dependency the u.s. has created. in the little in the midst of all that and then they're going to have

and there are going to. take twice and they have and they will have the social and movements that see. that are. disenfranchised rising up and they are you going to have elites not being able to be clients the same thais rising up in there are you going to have elites not being able to be clients the same kind of clients that they have been for decades go ahead james well i kind of clients that they have been for decades go ahead james. well i i think you're a little more optimistic than i am that we're actually going to get out of the middle east we so i think i think you're a little more optimistic than i am that we're actually going to get out of the middle east we so i think that and i must know my mind my timeframe and and my time frame is like 1015 ads and i must know my mind my time frame and on my time frame is like 1015 years ago and it's not in this administration i'm sorry to keep going

. the years are going and it's not in this administration i'm sorry to keep going. to ok you're right you're a right about that although what that looks like at the end of the day i don't know ok you're right you're a right about that although what that looks like at the end of the day i don't think anybody can say. you're right i don't know how much that i think anybody can say. you're right i don't know how much that relates to elite versus people you know one thing i notice about these protests is that these relates to elites versus people you know one thing i notice about these protests is that these are largely an urban phenomenon and you sort of wonder how representative they are of the reservoir glee and urban phenomenon and you sort of wonder how representative they are of the rest of the country you know everybody's making the comparison to the arab spring very few people in the country you know everybody's making the comparison to the arab spring very few people are making the comparison to the color revolutions we've seen over the last couple decades were which were local are

making the comparison to the color revolutions we've seen over the last couple decades were which were largely i would say in many cases an astroturf phenomenon they really were not representative marginally i would say in many cases and astroturf phenomenon they really were not representative of the country at all although western governments were quick to say the ukrainian people have chosen this leave the country at all although western governments were quick to say the ukrainian people have chosen this the georgian people have chosen that so i do wonder sometimes about what the outside meant georgian people have chosen that so i do wonder sometimes. about what the outside meddling in these things are as well as the underlying goal between the telling of these things are as well as the underlying goal between the elites and as patrick has pointed out and atomized especially younger people the elites and as patrick has pointed out and atomized especially younger people but you're right if we do end up getting out of the

middle east and i think the really the big but you're right if we do end up getting out of the middle east and i think the really the big question is going to be what happens in saudi arabia yet if we really and up question is going to be what happens in saudi arabia yet if we really yet end up withdrawing from the middle east because if you're looking for a powder keg there's one well james i can withdrawing from the middle east because if you're looking for a powder keg there's one well james i can tell you is that what happens in saudi arabia i can tell you right away i don't know what it will be but it won't be good oh well you know is that what happens in saudi arabia i can tell you right away i don't know what it will be but it won't be good ok that's for sure ok joshua you know it's been it's been already been brought up here not hate that's for sure ok joshua you know it's been it's been already been brought up here now and i think it's important to discuss here i mean you're an expert on lebanon you lived there for many many years and i think it's important to discuss here i mean you're an expert on lebanon you lived there for many many years i mean on the one hand i do

see the legitimate protests ok but i mean on the one hand i do see the legitimate protests ok but you know james in washington does bring up the issue of outside meddling and we've seen this in hong kong you know james in washington does bring up the issue of outside meddling and we've seen this in hong kong and particularly how the media frames it so a tough question i suppose but you know young and particularly how the media frames it so a tough question i suppose but you know how legitimate is it and how much outside influence you think is possible how legitimate is it and how much out. side influence you think is possibly there because there are people are saying sure us is in lebanon right now others are saying believe they're because there are people are saying sure us is in lebanon right now others are saying this is grassroots this is legitimate people are sick and tired of it how do you weigh those things this is grassroots this is legitimate people are sick and tired of it how do you weigh those things joshua i think this is legitimate and i think people are sick

and tired joshua i think this is legitimate and i think people are sick and tired and part of the right way you can tell it is that it's not sectarian there are of course everybody is and part of the right way you can tell it is that it's not sectarian there are of course everybody is trying to spin it as a sectarian yet you know spin their sectarian view as trying to spin it as a sectarian yet you know spin their sectarian view and so you know a lot of the western press is is trying to highlight them and so you know a lot of the western press is is trying to highlight the role is a lioness in that there's criticism of his ball and it's the reason that it's take role is a lioness and that there's criticism of his ball and it's the reason that it's taking place is because hizbollah is to has gained such a predominant part in the places because hizbollah is to has gained such a predominant part and the government and so forth but you know i think the

lebanese most people realize so forth but you know i think the lebanese and most people realize you know most people are just worried about where they're going to get enough money to live expect most people are just worried about where they're going to get enough money to live expenses has gone through the roof no electric is irregular you can't get good internet and says has gone through the roof no electric is irregular you can't get good internet all the services that lebanese want whether it's picking up the garbage shirt just all the services that lebanese want whether it's picking up. the garbage short just keeping the streets clean and not making sure people don't park on the sidewalk all those little ins keeping the streets clean and not making sure people don't park on the sidewalk all those little insults that overwhelm you when you're in lebanon after a while i think of piled assaults that overwhelm you when you're in lebanon after a while i think of piled up and that's why you're seeing people joining hands from

one end of the country to the other it's up and that's why you're seeing people joining hands from one end of the country to the other it's symbolic and it's course it can be you know it can be twisted a little bit but i think it's symbolic and it's course it can be you know it can be twisted a little bit but i think at heart the lebanese really want their government to spend some sort of at heart the lebanese really want their government to spend sums to solve some of these economic problems which have not been solved same question you patrick you know how to solve some of these economic problems which have not been solved same question you patrick is you know how do you how do you put the scales there of you know people intentionally wanting to inflame it from the you know how do you how do you put the scales there of you know people intentionally wanting to inflame it from the outside and then these grassroots grievances that we were just numerated by joshua go outside and then these grassroots grievances that we were just numerated by joshua go ahead i think lebanon is actually

a good example back to when i grew the head i think lebanon is actually a good example back to and i agree with everything joshua said and i think it's clear this is a genuine very much resembles everything joshua said and i think it's clear this is a genuine it very much resembles the occupy movement in the sense that the young people in lebanon regardless of their sect or occupy movement in the sense that the young people in lebanon regardless of their sect or their affiliations religious affiliations agree that there's an oligarchy and the problem is with their affiliations religious affiliations agree that there's an all. darkie and the problem is an oligarchy kind of privileged in a hereditary class unfortunately it's also is an oligarchy a kind of privileged in a hereditary class unfortunately it's also a sectarian all of our key and that's a result of the confessional system that's been imposed on sectarian all of our key and that's a result of the confessional system that's been imposed on lebanon and we might see

the end of that perhaps by the end of this to mulch a celeb and on and we might see the end of that perhaps by the end of this to mulch of this period but i think more than that there's this issue of the nice period but i think more than that there's this issue of the united states meddling you have to address the fact that during the cold war you know the number one states meddling you have to address the fact that during the cold war the number one priority of the u.s. was to thwart or to move out of power any one priority of the u.s. was to thwart or to move out of power any left leaning government around the globe and that was number one priority that was and central a left leaning government around the globe and that was number one priority that was in central america south america in the middle east including arab nationalist governments america south america in the middle east including arab nationalist governments that were seen to be going in

a socialist direction so. really it were seen to be going in a socialist direction so it's really disempowered a lot of countries over the years and i think the u.s. has won that cold war disempowered a lot of countries over the years and i think the u.s. has won that cold war it's one that imperialist war globally and it's now exported it's one that imperialist war globally and it's now exported it's atomized and individualize societies to the point where i don't think they have the political atomized and individualize societies to the point where. i don't think they have the political direction or where with all our ability ideological ability to find out what's goal direction or where with all our ability ideological ability to find out what's better what's a better option than neoliberal economics it's people are pains to better what's a better option than neoliberal economics it's people are pains to find the answer to that question right now and so it turns anarchic in and find the answer to that

question right now and so if it turns anarchic in and our kids are seems to be expressed more than political organizing and real solutions in our kids or seems to be expressed more than political organizing and real solutions this is the problem that they're all facing right now many of them oh that's not a good message and this is the problem that they're all facing right now many of them oh that's not a good message at all is go back to washington here if we could bring up the case of iraq here we all go back to washington here if we could bring up the case of iraq here where you know the some of the troops that are withdrawn from syria american troops are being sent to iraq or you know the some of the troops that are withdrawn from syria american troops are being sent to iraq without the permission of the iraqi government and the whole issue of american troops in iraq without the permission of the iraqi government and the whole issue of american troops in iraq or is hotly contested here how does that add to

a lot of the protests or is hotly contested here how does that add to a lot of the protests because there's been a lot in iraq and a lot of people actually died go ahead james it's because there's been a lot in iraq and a lot of people actually died go ahead james. yes that's right and you raise the issue of people dying you know we've had people being you know that's right and you raise the issue of people dying you know we've had people being killed in chile over what over over bus prices i mean it one of the killed in chile over what over over bus prices i mean it is one of the things i can't help but notice it again not only in the in the arab spring but also in the color revolutions things i can't help but notice it again not only in the in the arab spring but also in the color revolutions is how the media covers the question of the use of force that this is how the media covers the question of the use of force that i say well you know you

see for example i remember in kiev in 2014 they were saying oh look at say what you know and you see for example i remember in kiev in 2014 they were saying oh look at the police beat up the demonstrators and in fact if you looked at the footage it was actually the demonstrators beating the police beat up the demonstrators and in fact if you look at the footage it was actually the demonstrators beating up the police what's the what's what is the the ratio or the up the police what's the what's what is the the ratio or the or the or the equities between what kind of force or restraint is being used by the authority or the or the equities between what kind of force or restraint is being used by the authorities on the one hand and how militant violence are and even using deadly violence your son the one hand and how militant violence are and even using deadly violence you're seeing sometimes from people in the crowds and you wonder look i'm not i'm not you're seeing sometimes from people in the crowds and you wonder look i'm not i'm not a believer in the whole marxist paradigm that you know once the once the oppressed

masses reaches a believer in the whole marxist paradigm that you know once the once the oppressed masses reach a certain level of misery they rise up as one in rush of righteous indignation things don't look to certain level of misery they rise up as one and rush of righteous indignation things to. don't happen that way people don't behave that way a chair has to be some kind of zone to happen that way people don't behave that way and still has to be some kind of there has to be some kind of even if they don't have leaders in the way that joshua refers there has to be some kind of a even if they don't have leaders in the way that joshua refers there's somebody somebody ends up organizing this somebody ends up taking the lead and there's somebody somebody ends up organizing this somebody ends up taking the lead and there are usually fairly small groups of people that sort of set the tone and gifts are usually fairly small groups of people that sort of set the tone and get other people involved and i get i guess i'm a bit of

a cynic i i always want other people involved and i get i guess i'm a bit of a cynic i i always wonder who is the hidden hand behind the scenes and of course this is also an accusation or who is the hidden hand behind the scenes and of course this is also an accusation that's used by a by the american side you see there's an american diplomat saying that the action that's used by a by the american side you see there's an american diplomat saying that the problems in chile are being fed by who else by vladimir putin the russians are causing the problems in chile are being fed by who else by vladimir putin the russians are causing it so that's more russian beveling so i i don't know i always want to look at the different that's more russian beveling so i i don't know i always want to look at the different layers of the onion here and see what all is going on all the way through the different layers layers of the onion here and see what all is going on all the way through the different layers you know joshua you

know blaming russia for everything is like going to the onion website but you know joshua you know blaming russia for everything is like going to the onion website but anyway joshua you know you're you're a well renowned well known with anyway joshua you know you're you're a well renowned well known. and one highly respected middle east expert here how do you see western highly respected middle east expert here how how do you see western media coverage of what's happening in the middle east with these protests here do they have to be a coverage of what's happening in the middle east with these protests here do they have do they have the right optic go ahead. you know i think they have the right optic go ahead. you know i think the western media has gone through a real education over the last western media has gone through a real education over the last 15 years trying to figure out the middle east and

they really bought into 15 years trying to figure out the middle east and they really bought into. they bought into george bush's original argument that. they bought into george bush's original argument that that america could scrape off these governments and that america could scrape off these governments and create democracy in the middle east i think today americans are much more create democracy in the middle east i think today americans are much more a bit more sophisticated and more cynical about what's going on in the middle east or a bit more sophisticated and more cynical about what's going on in the middle east or exhausted a yeah there are exhausted and they've spent you know a president exhausted a. yeah there are exhausted and they've spent you know a president trump is hitting that. very hard meat he keeps on reiterating we've

spent 7 trump is hitting not hitting that very hard meat he keeps on reiterating we've spent 7 trillion dollars i think he said 8 trillion the other day but we spent a lot of money and trillion dollars i think he said 8 trillion the other day but we spent a lot of money and americans haven't paid for that they've just put it on the credit card it's going to come due americans haven't paid for that they've just put it on the credit card it's going to come due and and i think there they are feeling exhausted they want to get out and and i think they're they are feeling exhausted they want to get out they don't they realize that this is not a place that america can wave a wand and fix they don't they realize this is not a place that america can wave a wand and fix we're seeing this attempt to get out of afghanistan get out of syria we're seeing this attempt to get out of afghanistan get out of syria there are plenty of forces that are pulling us right back yeah and and americans don't there

are plenty of forces that are pulling us right back yeah and and americans don't want to abandon of course a position like afghanistan and just but they are real want to abandon of course a position like afghanistan and just but they are realizing that this is a complicated region i think that we are going to see americanizing that this is a complicated region i think that we are going to see america withdraw a lot more because they are more cynical about these forces they realize they are withdraw a lot more because they are more cynical about these forces they realize there's not an easy answer that underneath the surface of language is not an easy answer that underneath the surface of language like we all want a better shake there are a lot of sectarian force like we all want. a better shake there are a lot of sectarian forces there are we actual forces and their ethnic forces that

are not easy to contain or says there are we actual forces and their ethnic forces that are not easy to contain and that can be very violent and destructive and and then america and that can be very violent and destructive and and that america can't manipulate them we've seen this with the kurds trying to side with the currents that dumping the kurds can't manipulate them we've seen this with the kurds trying to side with the currents that dumping the kurds now is a sort of very crass grab for oil in syria which it's now a sort of very crass grab for oil in syria which is which is i think to a certain degree reflective of the exhaustion of a mistake which is i think to a certain degree reflective of. the exhaustion of americans and now this this sort of money grab we're just going to go for the oil sattar rabia and now this is sort of money grab we're just going to go for the oil sattar rabia grab the oil and syria it is it undermines. the oil in syria it is

it undermines. whatever principles america can bring to the table and it really shows that whatever principles america can bring to the table and it really shows an ugly face to power in the middle east today that lee face to power in the middle east today that that. that doesn't have answers yeah but i mean he will have to that. that doesn't have answers yeah but i mean you're i will have to end on that point here but you know the lack of principles stealing someone else's natural resources and on that point here but you know the lack of principles stealing someone else's natural resources so they can't rebuild i mean i don't know how more pathetic back can be ok so they can't rebuild i mean i don't know how more pathetic back can be ok but unfortunately it's not really portrayed

that way in western media gentlemen that's all the time we have many think but unfortunately it's not really portrayed that way in western media gentlemen that's all the time we have many thanks to my guests in washington plymouth and in norman and thanks to our viewers for watching us here dark eeks and i guess in washington plymouth and in norman and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember. see you next time and remember.

what politicians do. what politicians do something to. put themselves on the line they get acceptable to. put themselves on the line they get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president. rejected. so when you want to be president if you. want to listen. to the right to due process this is what some want to be rushed. to going to press this is what. 3 in the morning can't be good. i mean there's the old. 3 in the morning can't be good. i'm interested always in the waters in the. bush. it was in the waters in the. bush.

the. the disconnect between the vast majority of americans and what people see on cable news is is that you can act between the vast majority of americans and what people see on cable news is huge and what people on cable news think everyone should get outraged about. and what people on cable news think everyone should get outraged about nobody in america pays any attention to whatsoever and this is the in america pays any attention to whatsoever and this is what led to traumas victory in 2016 in what setting him up for victory in 2021 led to traumas victory in 2016 in what setting him up for victory in 2020. 300 to. 300 to pretty. old must remember that it was most of the family were.

old enough to remember that it was most of the family. there wasn't it was big you know much worse objectively. there wasn't it was big you know much worse objectively. but there was an expectation of the things were going to get better. but there was an expectation of the things were going to get better. there was a real sense of hope. there isn't a day to do these america where there was a real sense of who. fullness there isn't today today's america was shaped by the turn principles of concentration of wealth and power shaped by the turn principles of concentration of wealth and power. reduce democracy attack solo doubt. reduce democracy attack solo doubt engineer elections manufacture consent and other principle engineer elections

manufacture consent and other principles according to no on tone scale one set of rules for the rich holds according to no on tone scale one set of rules for the rich opposites. that's what happens opposites. that's what happens when you put her into the hands of a narrow sector of when you put her into the hands of a narrow sector of will which will is dedicated to increasing power for itself just as you'd expect will which will is dedicated to increasing power for itself just as you'd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the modern civilization of america. the modern civilization of america.

when you look at. the.

top diplomats from russia. from russia they run the peace talks on syria before the launch of a constitutional committee for the war the peace talks on syria before the launch of a constitutional committee for the war torn country. detained american journalist max bloom and country. detained american journalist max blumenthal claims he was arrested on charges of assault reporting the suede all claims he was arrested on

charges of assault reporting. position we hear from his lawyer. these charges. we hear from his lawyer. these charges are blatantly false and highly inflammatory. blatantly false and highly inflammatory. the u.k. is heading for a general election. bill is heading for a. election proves boris johnson's bill seeking a december 12th vote to break the brakes it costs. december 12th vote to break the brakes it costs.