talk to the mats from russia turkey and iran meet in geneva for peace talks on syria diplomats from russia turkey and iran meet in geneva for peace talks on syria before the launch of a constitutional committee for the war torn country for the launch of a constitutional committee for the war torn country. detained american journalist blumenthal claims he was arrested on. detained american journalist blumenthal claims he was arrested on false charges of assault after his reporting on venice

while an opposition violence charges of assault after his reporting on venice while an opposition violence we've been speaking to his lawyer. these charges are we've been speaking to his lawyer. these charges are blatantly false and highly inflammatory. the u.k. is heading for a false highly inflammatory. the u.k. is heading for a general election parliament approved boris johnson's bill seeking a december 28th general election as parliament approved boris johnson's bill seeking a december 12th vote to break the breaks that impasse. well the 12th vote to break the brics it impasse. well those are the headlines i'll be back here in around and i was time with another round up mean time savers are the headlines i'll be back here in around and i was time with another round up meantime stay. the

crosstalk international next. international next. hello and what. hello and welcome to crossfire we're all things are considered times peter lavelle all across the middle east and beyond they're all from the crosstalk we're all things are considered times peter lavelle all across the middle east and beyond there are large scale protests and growing

political instability in many countries the old way large scale protests and growing political instability in many countries the old ways of doing business but only in rich privileged elite while the prospects for the many artists of doing business but only in rich privileged elite while the prospects for the many are few and far in between the elites have answers for today's growing problem few and far in between the elites have answers for today's growing problems. the bill. the bill of the i'm joined by my guest james jaharis and watch and he's a former u.s. diplomat and former advisor to lady i'm joined by my guest james jatra soon watch and he's a former u.s. diplomat and former advise. eyes are for the u.s.

senate republican leadership in plymouth we have he is the executor of the u.s. senate republican leadership in plymouth we have and he is the executive editor of the news website 21st century wired dot com and in norman we cross to editor of the news web site 21st century wired dot com and in norman we cross to joshua landis he is director of the center of middle east studies at the university of landis he is director of the center of middle east studies at the university of oklahoma all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate joshua look lahoma all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate joshua let me go to you 1st in norman all across the globe we have iraq we let me go to you 1st in norman all across the globe we have iraq we have we have lebanon we have chile we have many other places around the world plus we have the have we have lebanon we have chile we have many other places around the world plus we have

the whole division over brags that in the u.k. we have the division in the united states whole division over bragg's it in the u.k. we have the division in the united states there's a lot of instability out there but i want to talk about the specific country of lebanon just says that a lot of instability out there but i want to talk about the specific country of lebanon just to start it off here a lot of people say that it is the bellwether for the recent started off here a lot of people say that it is the bellwether for the region what happens there 1st is an indication of what possibly and probably will happen and what happens there 1st is an indication of what possibly and probably will happen in a number of other countries in the region how do you reflect upon that go ahead joshua and the number of other countries in the region how do you reflect upon that go ahead joshua. well i think you're right lebanon is one of the is the 3rd most indebted country in the world well i think you're right lebanon is one of the is the 3rd most indebted country in the world riad salame

a the head of the central bank said to the country will crash and riyadh salah may the head of the central bank said to the country will crash economically if these protests go on much longer but the protests are in many ways economically if these protests go on much longer but the protests are in many ways i think a reflection of a tremendous change in the world i think a reflection of tremendous change in the world a an income gap that is yawning but i mean rich and poor and we an income gap that is yawning but i mean rich and poor and we can see that from across the world you know europe is the most equal can see that from across the world you know europe is the most equal part of the world at 30 percent of wealth is held by the top 10 percent part of the world at 30 percent of wealth is held by the top 10 percent but

the middle east is the worst it's 61 percent of all wealth but the middle east is the worst it's 61 percent of all wealth is held by the top 10 percent now russia and america are hovering in the us held by the top 10 percent now russia and america are hovering in the middle but but it's that you know the world is becoming more and more unequal but but it's that you know the world is becoming more and more unequal and i think in places where you have bad governments like lebanon iraq will and i think in places where you have bad governments like lebanon iraq egypt syria you're seeing this kind of explosion egypt syria you're seeing this kind of. of real you know there's not enough jobs there is bad government people are robbed of real you know there's not enough jobs there is bad government people are robbing at the top and the public feels like they're getting

a very bad deal and dumping at the top and the public feels like they're getting a very bad deal and they're up in arms you know patrick and i did everything that joshua to said there are up in arms you know patrick and i did everything that joshua to said there but we have these ruling elites as i said in my introduction you know still doing business as usual but we have these ruling elites as i said in my introduction you know still doing business as usual the old ways here and this is a real wake up call and one more thing we look at the the old ways here and this is a real wake up call and one more thing we look at the disparity in income we can look at the usefulness of a lot of these countries a lot of people a disparity in income we can look at the usefulness of a lot of these countries a lot of people. under 18 and what prospects do they have here but my issue with under 18 and what prospects do they have here but my issue is with governance here

what's it going to take because as joshua pointed out here this is this is with governance here what's it going to take because as joshua pointed out here this is this can explode it is exploding go ahead patrick you know this is a very difficult can explode it is exploding go ahead battery you know this is a very difficult topic to kind of get your head around because there's so many brazil topic to kind of get your head around because there's so many uprising zork does so much political unrest happening simultaneously and i think there's a tendency by the meetings or the so much political unrest happening simultaneously and i think there's a tendency by the media by political commentators by economists and political cause by political commentators by economists and political. mr try to find some generalized terms to sort of describe what is to try to find some generalized terms to sort of describe what it's like a global phenomenon i think that was

a mistake that the west made with the arab spring but what's like a global phenomenon i think that was a mistake that the west made with the arab spring by putting it all into one kind of soup and i think the reality is you have by putting it all into one kind of soup and i think the reality is you have you have different aspects and different characteristics with each of these there are commonalities however if you want to talk about overarching. different aspects and different characteristics with each of these there are commonalities however if you want to talk about overarching framework for analyzing this you've got post colonial identity issues you've got frameworks for analyzing this you've got post colonial identity issues you've got post colonial border mapmaking issues that are still plaguing places like the middle o'neill border mapmaking issues that are still plaguing places like the middle east all the way back from war one you've got neoliberal policies elian at

least all the way back from war one you've got neo liberal policies elian of neo liberal policies you have u.s. meddling which would go under the neo liberal policies you have us meddling which would go under the banner of imperialism you could say u.s. foreign policy this is all the banner of imperialism you could say u.s. foreign policy this is also a big big issue how that effects and how it has affected a lot of these countries in so a big big issue how that effects and how it has affected a lot of these countries in regions and you also have the failure of soviet era collectivism regions and you also have the failure of soviet era collective. just social economic structures and dependency issues. social economic structures and dependency issues and also dependency issues with all of these

countries economically i mean you look at a country and also dependency issues with all of these countries economically i mean you look at a country like lebanon they have absolutely nothing that they produce they import everything lebanon they have absolutely nothing that they produce they import everything there economically completely dependent on things like foreign aid and thing there economically completely dependent on things like foreign aid and an ngo sector economy that sort of drives the middle class in that country that's just one ngo sector economy that sort of drives the middle class in that country that's just one example so it's it is very difficult i think hong kong is also an example so it's it is very difficult i think hong kong is also has been mischaracterized by the press because it's. hasn't just been mischaracterized by the press because it's it wasn't just an uprising to do with class this had something to do with just

uprising to do with class this had something to do with change this was kind of an imported revolution this is indicative of the change this was kind of an imported revolution this is indicative of the into individualized young middle class global citizen into individualized young middle class global citizen yet that exists virtually their identity from social media and i think that and yet that exists virtually their identity from social media and i think that also drives that change drives it but they don't know where to go with this change well the political organizing also drives that change drives it but they don't know where to go with this change well political or. noising isn't there that the ideas aren't there to go anywhere with it you know what you patrick you just did a thing isn't there that the ideas aren't there to go anywhere with it you know what you patrick you just did a ph d. on t.v.

in about 3 minutes easing to me let me go to james now ph d. on t.v. in about 3 minutes easing to me let me go to james now you know i can you know that this has a lot to do with expectations and i think that you know i can you know that this has a lot to do with expectations and i think that you know patrick was hit the nail on the head there and be people being so interconnected was hit the nail on the head there and be people being so interconnected is well here but you know what what we have here is we we have is one. well but you know what what we have here is we we have global elites that are not delivering they're doing quite well and they don't have any solution leads that are not delivering they're doing quite well and they don't have any solutions here and at the same time you have a lot of people protesting it in more than protestations here and at the same time you have a lot of people protesting in more than protesting out of the fact that they don't

see that they have a future here and that is a toxic mixture and out of the fact that they don't see that they have a future here and that is a toxic mixture go ahead james it is that i think those are the maybe of some of the factors we see in common go ahead james it is that i think those are the making of some of the factors we see in common with these things and then as we all know that there are disparate causes like in chile it's trends with these things and then as we all know that there are disparate causes like in chile it's transportation prices in lebanon it was communications and cell phones and whatsapp and things were taishan prices in lebanon it was communications and cell phones and whatsapp and things like that i can't help but wonder though peter that what what more is like that i can't help but wonder though peter that what what what. or is there that meets the eye i always wonder why for example some protests and some there that meets the eye i always wonder why for example some protests in some

countries get very favorable treatment from the global media which sarah shares the countries get very favorable treatment from the global media which sarah shares the same neo liberal ideology is what these people are supposedly protesting against and same neo liberal ideology is what these people are supposedly protesting against in many cases and other cases they don't get such good press for example any cases and other cases they don't get such good press for example i've noticed in all of this very few people mention sort of the the granddaddy of all this in the last year and i notice in all of this very few people mention sort of the the granddaddy of all this in the last year or so which is the yellow vests in france which i think very much were a working class which is the yellow vests in france which i think very much were a working class phenomenon against the very things we're describing but they're bad you see because they're there they're there they're not really they're the bad kind of populist as they pose to what's wrong cause phenomenon against the very things

we're describing but they're bad you see because there are there are there are there are there are not really but there are the bad kind of populists as they pose to what's wrong kong that's right that's going to go on the politics behind a populist. kids in a congo calm good o'conner good ok that in the way that in the in the yellow bit in there as yellow there are us are or are disco yeah exactly they're dependent on it we should say about spain they have a disco yeah exactly they're dependent on it we should say about spain they have. that's right and if the catalogs are protesting with that's good but of spirit that's right and if the catalogs are protesting with that's good but if spaniards who want spain to stay together are protesting well that's bad so i think there's who want spain to stay together protesting well that's bad so i think there's. i can't help but suspect that there's a there's a thumb on the scale i can't help but suspect that there's a there's a thumb on the scale and terms of our perceptions i keep waiting for

a levy to tell us what and terms of our perceptions i keep waiting for a levy to tell us which ones are the good about and which are the bad ones. but he can keep his mouth shut it's one of the good times in which a bad one. but he can keep his mouth shut as far as i'm concerned joshua you know. patrick marty mentioned far as i'm concerned joshua you know. patrick marty mentioned. u.s. involvement particularly in the middle east here where you know constantly putting pressure on u.s. involvement particularly in the middle east here where you know constantly putting pressure on the lebanese government to get rid of hezbollah that is elected to the lebanese government to get rid of hezbollah that is elected to the offices across the country as a great deal of popularity to offices across the country as a great deal of popularity and then that the in the in the and then like

threatening turkey's economy and things like that i mean this doesn't and then that the in the in the and then like threatening turkey's economy and things like that i mean this doesn't make things any better i mean constantly using the dollar and the you make things any better i mean constantly using the dollar and the use in the financial system to punish countries around the world that just takes more options off the table doesn't it an actual system to punish countries around the world that just takes more options off the table doesn't it go ahead joshua it does look sanctions is a very brutal brutal go ahead joshua. it does you know look at sanctions is a very brutal brutal response to trying to regulate refined to response to trying to regulate refine to your foreign policy because it hits people right across the board it is collective punishment your foreign policy because it hits people right across the board it is collective punishment in the

worst way and we're seeing that in iran with sanctions on iran which of cause it rushed in the worst way and we're seeing that in iran with sanctions on iran which have caused iran to escalate violence because they're not going to take it lying down and on to escalate violence because they're not going to take it lying down and syria is in desperate straits and now the united states is eager to take the oil syria's in desperate straits and now the united states is eager to take the oil which syria needs in order to rebuild and lebanon of course the u.s. which syria needs in order to rebuild and lebanon of course the u.s. has been debating whether they should withdraw all 4 west has been debating whether they should withdraw all foreign aid to lebanon because hizbollah is part of the government but you know the ornate to lebanon because hizbollah is part of the government but you know the lebanese elite has been. sucking money out of

this system for lebanese the elite has been. sucking money out of this system for a long time and and you know it would be terrible if $11.00 on it collateral on time and and you know it would be terrible if 11 on it collapses i think the whole world understands that and nobody wants lebanon to collapse because it really isn't as i think the whole world understands that and nobody wants lebanon to collapse because it really isn't the sort of loans of the middle east where people can retreat the sort of loans. of the middle east where people can retreat to and find some kind of comfort some kind of a sort of leaven teen put to and find some kind of comfort some kind of a sort of leaven teen playground on one hand it's a playground but on the other hand it's said it's a refuge for all the ground on one hand it's a playground but on the other hand it's said it's a refuge for all kinds of thinking middle easterners who can't find

a place in their own country kinds of thinking middle easterners who can't find a place in their own countries so it would be terrible if that if it collapses if it if it runs into a bench or a so it would be terrible if that if it collapses if it if it runs into bankruptcy which it could do at any moment and. it's hard to see how they're going to have crapsey which it could do at any moment and. it's hard to see how they're going to how the lebanese are going to really sort out their economic problems because well the lebanese are going to really sort out their economic problems because when we look at the arab spring more generally which was framed of course as we when we look at the arab spring more generally which was framed of course as we just heard you know framed in terms of democracy. it therefore we just heard you know framed in terms of democracy. it there really hasn't been any serious economic

discussions about how the really hasn't been any serious economic discussions about how these how the middle eastern countries can get out of this terrible income gap it's how the middle eastern countries can get out of this terrible income gap the bad governance the corruption and that's what's going to take in as we don't the bad governance the corruption and that's what's going to take in as we don't really know the answers to that and people are desperate but these movements that have been run by social really know the answers to that. and people are desperate but these movements that have been run by social media which are easy to gather together yet don't have a leadership role media which are easy to gather together yet don't have a leadership and that is something that's plaguing the middle east it's good on the one hand because you know and that is something that's playing in the middle east it's good on the one hand because it means that you can't read press them but it's

bad on the other hand because when it comes to it means that you can't read press them but it's bad on the other hand because when it comes time to taking control they can't do it you know any and i guess i'm going to patter you 4 times taking control they can't do it you know anything and i guess i'm going to patrick before we go to the break here i mean we heard the term arab spring i always called the sunni winter and it's only getting worse going to break here i mean we heard the term arab spring i always called the sunni winter and it's only getting worse here how he would like to bomb that patrick go ahead sure ivan joshua just touches here how he would like to bomb that patrick go ahead sure i think joshua just touched on something that is very important he's to he's talking about you know no leadership with these virtues on something that's very important he's to he's talking about you know no leadership with these virtual movements that really exist are driven by social media no and so you will movements that really exist are driven by social media no and so you have ideological people in old political elite remenant from

the the previous old have ideological people in old political elite reminisce from the the previous old left are screaming in the corner for attention saying over here over here i want to be leading left screaming in the corner for attention saying over here over here i want to be leading this and that no one's paying attention because that's not what young people are looking for what they want this and that no one's paying attention because that's not what young people are looking for what they want what they were looking for was visibility it's what the old left was looking for as well of one's voice for that what they were looking for was his . ability it's what the old left was looking for as well of one's voice for the voiceless they found that voice online but unfortunately it's individualized to voiceless they found that voice online but unfortunately it's individualized and it's reflective of an atom an atom annoyed society and this is what the united states and it's reflective of an atom an atom annoyed society and this is what the united states has exported this kind of corporate ties to political identity that

replaced class identity has exported this kind of corporate ties to political identity that replaced class identity in the u.s. and nato is out on this is all that i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and then a holdout this is all that i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on global instability statement. after that short break we'll continue our discussion on global instability state. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guests of the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guests of the world of politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see that.

while give easy find this as. and that's us. and. for unions. and. for unions. it's rational and.

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more than enough to spend. more than a financial. option.

well welcome back to crossfire we're all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing global instability welcome back to crossfire we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing global instability. ok let's go back to james here. ok let's go back to james here you know there was a great song i think the clash there saying that you know you know there was a great song i think the clash there saying that you know you should i stay or should i go and i think that's becoming the motto we should i stay or should i go ok and i think that's becoming the motto above the of the truck trumping ministry.

at attitude towards syria we were each other which i. this a did it's a dismal policy i mean we could do talking about this a did it's a dismal policy i mean we could do talking about it here but i think there's broadly speaking i think there is a spot here but i think there is broadly speaking i think there is a sense that the u.s. will and will withdraw from the middle east sense that the u.s. will and will withdraw from the middle. east of course they'll be the. grahams out there and they'll be that of course they'll be the. grahams out there and they'll be the tom cotton's and people like that they want to keep the united states in the middle east but i think the writing is on the wall tom cotton's and people like that they want to keep the united states in the middle east but i think the writing is on the wall here that itself is creating instability because so much

dependency here that itself is creating instability because so much dependency the u.s. has created among many of the elites in the middle east that and they're going to have to study the u.s. has created among many of the elites in the middle east that and they're going to have to start thinking twice and they have social movements that see that are thinking twice and they have social movements that see. disenfranchised rising up and they are you going to have elites not being able to disenfranchised rising up in there are you going to have elites not being able to be clients the same kind of clients that they have been for decades go ahead james be clients the same kind of clients that they have been for decades go ahead james well i i think you're a little more optimistic than i am that we're actually going to get out of the middle well i i think you're a little more optimistic than i am that we're actually going to get out of the middle east where you so i think that i'm on. my time frame my time frame ileus

week so i think that i'm going to my my time frame my time frame is like 1015 years old and it's not in this administration i'm sorry to keep going it's like 1015 years ago and it's not in this administration i'm sorry to keep going. the ok you're right you're right about that although what that looks like the ok you're right you're right about that although what that looks like at the end of the day i don't think anybody can say. you're right i don't at the end of the day i don't think anybody can say. you're. you're right i don't know how much that relates to elites versus people you know one thing i notice about these protests is that these are largely an urban phenomenon and you sort of wonder how represent a how much that relates to elites versus people you know one thing i notice about these protests is that these are largely an urban phenomenon and you sort of wonder how representative they ought of they are of the of the rest of the us the country

you know everybody's making is making the comparison paris and so to the of the arab spring spring very few people are making the comparison to the color revolutions we've seen over the last couple of decades very few people are making the comparison to the color revolutions we've seen over the last couple decades were which were largely i would say in many cases an astroturf phenomenon they really were which were largely i would say in many cases an astroturf phenomenon they really were not representative of the country at all although western governments were quick to say the ukrainian people were not representative of the country at all although western governments were quick to say you cranium people have chosen this the georgian people have chosen that so i do wonder sometimes about will have chosen this the georgian people have chosen that so i do wonder sometimes about what the outside meddling in these things are as well as the underlying what the outside meddling in these things are as well as the underlying gulf between the elites and as patrick is pointing out and adam ised special gulf

between the elites and as patrick is pointing out and adam ised especially younger people but you're right if we do end up getting out of the middle east and younger people but you're right if we do end up getting out of the middle east and i think the really the big question is going to be what happens in saudi arabia yet if we realize think the really the big question is going to be what happens in saudi arabia yet if we really get end up withdrawing from the middle east because if you're looking for a powder keg there is what the end up withdrawing from the middle east because if you're looking for a powder keg. so there is one well james all i can tell you is that what happens in saudi arabia i can tell you right away i don't know what it will be well james all i can tell you is that what happens in saudi arabia i can tell you right away i don't know what it will be but it won't be good ok that's for sure ok joshua you know it's been it's been a bit it won't be good ok that's for sure ok joshua you know it's been it's been already been brought up here now and i think it's important to discuss here i mean

you're an expert in lebanon you live there already been brought up here night and i think it's important to discuss here i mean you're an expert on lebanon you lived there for many many years i mean on the one hand i do see the legitimate protests for many many years i mean on the one hand i do see the legitimate protests ok but you know james in washington does bring up the issue of outside meddling ok but you know james in washington does bring up the issue of outside meddling and we've seen this in hong kong and particularly how the media frames it so a tough question and we've seen this in hong kong and particularly how the media frames it so a tough question i suppose but you know how legitimate is it and how much outside and i suppose but you know how legitimate is it and how much outside influence you think is possibly there because there are people are saying sure roses in lebanon right now fluency think is possibly there because there are people are saying sure roses in lebanon right now others are saying this is grassroots this is legitimate

people are sick and tired of it how do you know others are saying this is grassroots this is legitimate people are sick and tired of it how do you weigh those things joshua i think this is legitimate and i think people are way those things joshua. i think this is legitimate and i think people are sick and tired and part of the right way you can tell it is that it's not sectarian there are that in tired and part of the right way you can tell it is that it's not sectarian there are of course everybody is trying to spin it as a sectarian yet you know spin they're sick of course everybody is trying to spin it as a sectarian yet you know spin their sectarian view and so you know a lot of the western press is is trying to highlight tarion view and so you know a lot of the western press is is trying to highlight the role is a lioness in that there's criticism of his ball and it's the right the role is a lioness in that there's criticism of his ball and it's the reason that it's taking place is because his ball is to has gained such

a predominant reason that it's taking place is because his ball is to has gained such a predominant part in the government and so forth but you know i think the lebanese most part and the government and so forth but you know i think the lebanese most people realize you know most people are just worried about where they're going to get enough money to lift people realize you know most people are just worried about where they're going to get enough money to live expenses has gone through the roof you know electric is irregular you can't they have expenses has gone through the roof you know electric is irregular you can't get good internet all the services that lebanese want whether it's picking up the garbage good internet all the services that lebanese want whether it's picking up the garbage shirt just keeping the streets clean or not making sure people don't park on the sidewalk or been short just keeping the streets clean and not making sure people don't park on the sidewalk all those little insults that overwhelm you when you're in lebanon after

a while all those little insults that overwhelm you when you're in lebanon after a while i think of a piled up and that's why you're seeing people joining hands from one into the i think of a piled up and then. why you're seeing people joining hands from one end of the country to the other it's symbolic and it's course it's can be you know it can be $23.00 to the other it's symbolic and it's course it can be you know it can be twisted a little bit but i think at heart the lebanese really want their government a state a little bit but i think at heart the lebanese really want their government to spend some to solve some of these economic problems which have not been solved say to spend some to solve some of these economic problems which have not been solved same question you patrick you know how do you how do you put the scales there of you know people intentionally one question you patrick is you know how do you how do you put the scales there of you know people intentionally wanting to inflame it from the outside and then these grassroots grievances that we were just numerate to

inflame it from the outside and then these grassroots grievances that we were just numerated by joshua go ahead i think lebanon is actually a good example bracketed by joshua go ahead i think lebanon is actually a good example back to and i agree with everything joshua said and i think it's clear this is a genuine. and i agree with everything joshua said and i think it's clear this is a genuine it very much resembles the occupy movement in the sense that the young people in lebanon on regards very much resembles the occupy movement in the sense that the young people in lebanon regardless of their sect or their affiliations religious affiliations agree that there's an oligarchy list of their sect or their affiliations religious affiliations agree that there's an oligarchy and the problem is in all of a privileged in a hereditary class one and the problem is in all of a privileged in a hereditary class unfortunately it's also a sectarian all of our key and that's

a result of the confessional system fortunately it's also a sectarian all of our key and that's a result of the confessional system that's been imposed on lebanon and we might see the end of that perhaps by the end of them that's been imposed on lebanon and we might. i see the end of that perhaps by the end of this to mulch of this period but i think more than that there's this of this to mulch of this period but i think more than that there's this issue of the united states meddling you have to address the fact that during the cold war issue of the united states meddling you have to address the fact that during the cold war the number one priority of the us was to thwart or to move out or the number one priority of the u.s. was to thwart or to move out of power any left leaning government around the globe and that was number one priority power any left leaning government around the globe and that was number one priority that was in central america south america in the middle east including arab nationalist party that was in central america south

america in the middle east including arab nationalist governments that were seen to be going in a socialist direction so governments that were seen to be going in a socialist direction so. really disempowered a lot of countries over the years and i think the u.s. has really disempowered a lot of countries over the years and i think the u.s. has won that cold war it's one that imperialist war globally and it's not one that cold war it's one that imperialist war globally and it's now exported it's atomized and individualize societies to the point where i don't know exported it's atomized and individual i societies to the point where i don't think they have the political direction or where with all our ability ideological of think they have the political direction or where with all our ability ideological ability to find out what's better what's a better option than neoliberal economics it's village to find out what's better

what's a better option than neoliberal economics it's people are pains to find the answer to that question right now and so it turns and people are pains to find the answer . to that question right now and so if it turns anarchic in and or kids or seems to be expressed more than a political organizer or kick in and our kids are seems to be expressed more than political organizing and real solutions this is the problem that they're all facing right now many of them oh that's thing and real solutions this is the problem that they're all facing right now many of them oh that's not a good message at all is go back to washington here if we could bring up the case not a good message at all is go back to washington here if we could bring up the case of iraq here where you know the some of the troops that are withdrawn from syria america of iraq here where you know the some of the troops that are withdrawn from syria american troops are being sent to iraq without the permission of the iraqi government and the whole issue of troops are being sent to iraq without the

permission of the iraqi government and the whole issue of american troops in iraq or is hotly contested here how does that add to american troops in iraq or is hotly contested here how does that add to a lot of the protests because there's been a lot in iraq and a lot of people who actually died go ahead a lot of the protests because there's been a lot in iraq and a lot of people actually died go ahead james yes that's right and you raised the issue of people dying at james. yes that's right and you raise the issue of people dying you know we've had people being killed in chile over what over over bus prices i mean you know we've had people being killed in chile over what over over bus prices i mean it is one of the things i can't help but notice it again not only in the in the arab spring but also in the it one of the things i can't help but notice again not only in the in the arab spring but also in the color revolutions is how the media covers the question of the color revolutions is how the media

covers the question of the use of force that i say well you know you see for example i remember in kiev in 2014 the use of force that i say well you know you see for example i remember in kiev in 2014 they were saying oh look at the police beat up the demonstrators and in fact if you look at the footage it was actually they were saying oh look at the police beat up the demonstrators and in fact if you look at the footage it was actually the demonstrators beating up the police what's the what's what is the the rate of demonstrators beating up the police what's the what's what is the the ratio or the or the or the equities between what kind of force or restraint to show or the or the or the equities between what kind of force or restraint is being used by the authorities on the one hand and how militant violence are and even using death is being used by the authorities on the one hand and how militant violence are and even using deadly violence you're seeing sometimes from people in the crowds and you wonder look i had lee violence you're

seeing sometimes from people in the crowds and you wonder look i'm not i'm not a believer in the whole marxist paradigm that you know once the once the oppressor i'm not i'm not a believer in the whole marxist paradigm that you know once the once the oppressed masses reach a certain level of misery they rise up as one in rush of righteous indignation just masses reach a certain level of misery they rise up as one and righteous righteous indignation things don't look don't happen that way people don't behave that way a chair has to be some cop things don't. it don't happen that way people don't behave that way and still has to be some kind of there has to be some kind of even if they don't have leaders in the way that drawing of this is there has to be some kind of a even if they don't have leaders in the way that joshua refers there's somebody somebody ends up organizing this somebody ends up to a refers there's somebody somebody ends up organizing this somebody ends up taking the lead and there are usually fairly small groups of people that sort of set the

tone taking the lead and there are usually fairly small groups of people that sort of set the tone and get other people involved and i get i guess i'm a bit of its own and get other people involved and i get i guess i'm a bit of a cynic i i always wonder who is the hidden hand behind the scenes and of course this is an it guy i always wonder who is the hidden hand behind the scenes and of course this is also an accusation that's used by a by the american side you see there's an american diplomat also an accusation that's used by a by the american side you see there's an american diplomat saying that the problems in chile are being fed by who else by bloody or putin the russians are saying that the problems in chile are being fed by who else by vladimir putin the russians are causing it so that's more russian battling so i i don't know i have are causing it so that's more russian battling so i i don't know i always want to look at the different layers of the onion here and see what all is going on all the

way through it want to look at the different layers of the onion here and see what all is going on all the way through the different layers you know joshua you know blaming russia for everything is like going to the different layers you know joshua you know blaming russia for everything is like going to the onion website but anyway joshua you know you're you're a well run the onion website but anyway joshua you know you're you're a well renowned well known well highly respected middle east expert here how do you see around well known. and one highly respected middle east expert here how how do you see western media coverage of what's happening in the middle east with these protests here again western media coverage of what's happening in the middle east with these protests here do they have do they have the right optic go ahead. you know i do they have do they have the right optic go ahead. you know i think the western media has gone through

a real education over the last you think the western media has gone through a real education over the last. 15 years trying to figure out the middle east and they really. 15 years trying to figure out the middle east and they really bought into. they bought into george bush's are we bought into. they bought into george bush's original argument that that america could scrape off these government argument that that america could scrape off these governments and create democracy in the middle east i think today americans and create democracy in the middle east i think today americans are much more a bit more sophisticated and more cynical about what's for concern much more a bit more sophisticated and more cynical about what's going on in the middle east or exhausted a yeah there are exhausted and they've spent going on the middle east or exhausted

a. yeah there are exhausted and they've spent you know president trump is hitting that. very hard meat he keeps on rio you know president trump is hitting that hitting that very hard meat he keeps on reiterating we've spent 7 trillion dollars i think he said 8 trillion the other day but we spent a lot of reading we spent 7 trillion dollars i think he said 8 trillion the other day but we've spent a lot of money and americans haven't paid for that they've just put it on the credit card it's going to conny and americans haven't paid for that they've just put it on the credit card it's going to come due and and i think there are feeling exhausted i'm due and and i think they're they are feeling exhausted they want to get out they don't they realize that this is not a place that america can waiver they want to get out they don't they realize that this is not a place that america can wave a wand and fix we're seeing this attempt to get out of afghanistan get

a wand and fix we're seeing this attempt to get out of afghanistan get out of syria there are plenty of forces that are pulling us right back yeah out of syria there are plenty of forces that are pulling us right back yeah and and americans don't want to abandon of course a position like afghanistan and just and and americans don't want to abandon of course a position like afghanistan and just but they are realizing that this is a complicated region i think but they are realizing that this is a complicated region i think that we are going to see america withdraw a lot more because they are more cynical about these for that we are going to see america withdraw a lot more because they are more cynical about these forces they realize there's not an easy answer that underneath the surface forces they realize there's not an easy answer that underneath the surface of language like we all want a better shake there are

a lot of language like we all want. better shake there are a lot of sectarian forces there are we actual forces and their ethnic forces that are not a sectarian forces there are we actual forces and their ethnic forces that are not easy to contain and that can be very violent and destructive and not easy to contain and that can be very violent and destructive and and that america can't manipulate them we've seen this with the kurds trying to side with her and then america can't manipulate them we've seen this with the kurds trying to side with the currents that done some present in the current now if not now a set of very correct grab for our escrow oil have for oil in syria we'll introduce syria which which is she's i think to which a certain degree i think led to it of silvered. elective of. the exhaustion of americans and now this sort of money grab we're just going to go for the oils the

exhaustion of americans and now this sort of money grab we're just going to go for the oil sattar a sadder rabia grab the. oil it is here. it is it us undermine it undermines. whatever principles america can bring to the table and. whatever principles america can bring to the table and it really shows an ugly face to the power in the middle east to really shows an ugly face to the power in the middle east today that. that doesn't have the answers yeah but i mean the day that. it doesn't have the answers yeah but i mean you will have to end on that point here but you know the lack of principles stealing someone else's will have to end on that point here but you know the lack of principles stealing someone else's now to resources so they can't rebuild i mean i don't know how more

pathetic back can this now to resources so they can't rebuild i mean i don't know how more pathetic back can be ok but unfortunately it's not really part of that way in western media gentlemen that's all the be ok but unfortunately it's not really part of that way in western media gentlemen that's all the time we have many thanks to my guests in washington plymouth and in norman and thanks to our viewers for what time we have many thanks to my guests in washington plymouth and in norman and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember. watching us here darkie see you next time and remember.

the. the disconnect between the vast majority of americans and what people see on cable news is is he a disconnect between the vast majority of americans and what people see on cable news is huge and what people on cable news think everyone should get outraged about . and what people on cable news think everyone should get outraged about and nobody in america pays any attention to whatsoever and this is nobody in america pays any attention to whatsoever and this is what led to traumas victory in 2016 in what setting him up for victory in 2021 led to traumas victory in 2016 in what setting him up for victory in 2020.

is you'll media a reflection of reality. is you'll media a reflection of reality. in a world transformed. what will make in a world transformed. what will make you feel safe. isolation if you feel safe. isolation community. you go in the right way or you begin to cheat. are you going the right way or are you. being led somewhere. dialling. what is

truth being led somewhere. dialing. what is true what is faith. in a world corrupt to watch his faith. in a world corrupted you need to descend. into you need to descend. to join us in the depths. for a mate in the shallows to join us in the depths. for a mate in the shallowness. of the are not. believe the police

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