a little low and welcome to stop we're all things are considered a little of all across the middle east and beyond there are large scale protests and growing political instability in manassas the middle east and beyond there are large scale protests and growing political instability in many countries the old ways of doing business only in rich privileged elite while the probably countries the old ways of doing business but only in rich privileged elite while the prospects for the many are few and far in between the elites have answers for to auspex for the many are few and far in between the elites have answers for today's growing problems. days. problem.

instability i'm joined by my guest james jaharis and watch and he's a former u.s. diplomat global instability i'm joined by my guest james jaharis and watch and he's a former u.s. diplomat and former advisor to the u.s. senate republican leadership in plymouth we have and former advisor to the u.s. senate republican leadership in plymouth we have he is the executive editor of the news website 21st century wired dot com and he is the executive editor of the news website 21st century wired dot com and in norman we cross to joshua landis he is director of the center of middle east studies and in norman we cross to joshua landis he is director of the center of middle east studies at the university of oklahoma all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i'll at the university of oklahoma all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate josh. let me go to you 1st in norman all across that was appreciated

joshua let me go to you 1st in norman all across the globe we have iraq we have we have lebanon we have chile we have many other plough we have iraq we have we have lebanon we have chile we have many other places around the world plus we have the whole division over bragg's it in the u.k. we have bases around the world plus we have the whole division over bragg's it in the u.k. we have the division in the united states is a lot of instability out there but i want to talk about this but a division in the united states is a lot of instability out there but i want to talk about the specific country of lebanon just to start it off here a lot of people say that it is the bell west if a country of lebanon just to start it off here a lot of people say that it is the bellwether for the region what happens there 1st is an indication of what possible there are for the region what happens there 1st is an indication of what possibly and probably will happen in

a number of other countries in the region how do you reflect upon that go ahead and probably will happen in a number of other countries in the region how do you reflect upon that go ahead joshua well i think you're right lebanon is one of the 3rd most and joshua. well i think you're right lebanon is one of the is the 3rd most indebted country in the world riad salame a the head of the central bank said it to come dead in country in the world riyadh salah made the head of the central bank said it the country will crash economically if these protests go on much longer but the protests are and you will crash economically if these protests go on much longer but the protests are in many ways i think a reflection of tremendous change anyways i think a reflection of tremendous change in the world a an income gap that is yawning but i mean rich change in the world a an income gap that is yawning but i mean rich and poor and we can see that from

across the world you know europe and poor and we can see that from across the world you know europe is the most equal part of the world at 30 percent of wealth is up is the most equal part of the world at 30 percent of wealth is held by the top 10 percent but the middle east is the worst it's 61 tell by the top 10 percent but the middle east is the worst it's 61 percent of all wealth is held by the top 10 percent now russia and america are her scent of all wealth is held by the top 10 percent now russia and america are hovering in the middle but but it's that you know the world has become are hovering in the middle but but it's that you know the world is becoming more and more unequal and i think in places where you have bad governments i mean more and more unequal and i think in places where you have bad governments like lebanon iraq egypt syria you're seeing this kind of like lebanon

iraq egypt syria you're seeing this kind of explosion of real you know there's not enough jobs there's bad and. of real you know there's not enough jobs there is bad government people are robbing at the top and the public feels like they're getting a government people are robbing at the top and the public feels like they're getting a very bad deal and they're up in arms you know patrick and i did everything that josh very bad deal and they're up in arms you know patrick and i did everything that joshua to said there but we have these ruling elites as i said in my introduction you know just said there but we have these ruling elites as i said in my introduction you know still doing business as usual the old ways here and this is a real wake up call and one more thing doing business as usual the old ways here and this is a real wake up call and one more thing we look at the disparity in income we can

look at the usefulness of a lot of these can we look at the disparity in income we can look at the usefulness of a lot of these countries a lot of people. under 18 and what prospects do they have here and trees a lot of people. under 18 and what prospects do they have here but my issue is with governance here what's it going to take because as josh but my issue is with governance here what's it going to take because as joshua pointed out here this is this can explode it is exploding go ahead patrick to have pointed out here this is this can explode it is exploding go ahead patrick you know this is a very difficult topic to kind of get your head around because there's so many you know this is a very difficult topic to kind of get your head around because there's so many uprising zork does so much political unrest happening simultaneously and i think the uprisings or the so much political unrest happening simultaneously and i think there's a tendency by the media by political commentators biocon there's

a tendency by the media by political commentators by economists and political economist to try to find some generalized terms of mists and politike. the economist to try to find some generalized terms to sort of describe what it's like a global phenomenon i think that was a mistake that the west has to sort of describe what's like a global phenomenon i think that was a mistake that the west made with the arab spring by putting it all into one kind of soup and i think made with the arab spring by putting it all into one kind of soup and i think the reality is you have you have different aspects and different character in the realities you have you have different aspects and different characteristics with each of these there are commonalities however if you want to talk about all sticks with each of these there are commonalities however if you want to talk about overarching frameworks for analyzing this you've got post

colonial identity overarching frameworks for analyzing this you've got post colonial identity issues you've got post colonial border mapmaking issues that are still plaguing issues you've got post colonial border mapmaking issues that are still plaguing places like the middle east all the way back from war one you've got neo liberal places like the middle east all the way back from war one you've got neo liberal policies elian lasy of neo liberal policies you have u.s. meddling policy zealously of neo liberal policies you have u.s. meddling which would go under the banner of imperialism you could say u.s. foreign policy which would go under the banner of imperialism you could say u.s. foreign policy this is also a big big issue how that effects and how it has affected this is also a big big issue how that effects and how it has affected a lot of these countries in regions and you also have the failure of soviet era

a lot of these countries in regions and you also have the failure of soviet era collectivist social economic structures and dependency collective. social economic structures and dependency issues and also dependency issues with all of these countries economic issues and also dependency issues with all of these countries economically i mean you look at a country like lebanon they have absolutely nothing that they produce likely i mean you look at a country like lebanon they have absolutely nothing that they produce they import everything they're economically completely dependent on things like they import everything they're economically completely dependent on things like foreign aid and an ngo sector economy that sort of drives the middle class foreign aid and in ngo sector economy that sort of drives the middle class in that country that's just one

example so it's it is very difficult i think hong kong in a country that's just one example so it's it is very difficult i think hong kong is also has been mischaracterized by the press because it is also has been mischaracterized by the press because it's it wasn't just an uprising to do with class this had it wasn't just an uprising to do with class this had something to do with change this was kind of an imported revolution something to do with change this was kind of an imported revolution this is indicative of the into individualized young middle class this is indicative of the into individualized young middle class global citizen dissent and yet that it exists virtually their identity from from some social media and i think that also drives

that change drives it but they don't know where to go with this and i think that also drives that change drives it but they don't know where to go with this change well the political organizing isn't there that the ideas aren't there to go anywhere with it change well the political all. going to zing isn't there that the ideas aren't there to go anywhere with it you know what you patrick you just did a ph d. on t.v. in about 3 minutes easing to me let me go you know what you patrick you just did a ph d. on t.v. in about 3 minutes easing to me let me go to james now you know i can you know that this has a lot to do with expectation james now you know i can you know that this has a lot to do with expectations and i think that you know patrick was hit the nail on the head there and b.p. patients and i think that you know patrick was hit the nail on the head there and b. people being so interconnected is well here but you know what what we have here is we we have being so interconnected is well here but you know what what we have here is we we have global elites that are not delivering they're doing quite well and

global elites that are not delivering they're doing quite well and they don't have any solutions here and at the same time you have a lot of people protesting it they don't have any solutions here and at the same time you have a lot of people protesting in more than protesting out of the fact that they don't see that they have a future here and that more than protesting out of the fact that they don't see that they have a future here and that is a toxic mixture go ahead james it is that i think those are the making of some of that is a toxic mixture go ahead james it is that i think those are the making of some of the factors we see in common with these things and then as we all know that there are disparate causes laughters we see in common with these things and then as we all know that there are disparate causes like in chile it's transportation prices in lebanon it was communications and self like in chile it's transportation prices in lebanon it was communications and cell phones and whatsapp and things like that

i can't help but wonder though peter that phones and what's up and things like that i can't help but wonder though peter that what what more is there that meets the eye i always wonder why for example so what what. or is there that meets the eye i always wonder why for example some protests in some countries get very favorable treatment from the global protests in some countries get very favorable treatment from the global media which sarah shares the same neo liberal ideology is what these people are supposedly all media which sarah shares the same neo liberal ideology is what these people are supposedly protesting against in many cases and other cases they don't get such good press protesting against in many cases and other cases they don't get such good press for example i've noticed in all of this very few people mention sort of the the grandad's for example i've noticed in all of this very few people mention sort of the the granddaddy of all this in the last year or so which is the yellow vests in france which i think very much they have

all this in the last year or so which is the yellow vests in france which i think very much were a working class phenomenon against the very things we're describing but they're bad you see we're a working class phenomenon against the very things we're describing but they're bad you see because they're there or they're there they're not really they're the bad kind of populist because they're there or they're there or they're not really they're the bad kind of populist as they pose to what's wrong kong that's going to go on the populous the kids in hong kong are good ok that in the same pose to what's wrong kong that's going to go on the populous the kids in hong kong are good ok that in the in the yellow vests or are disco yeah exactly they're depending on who we should say in their yellow vests or are disco yeah exactly they're depending on who we should say about spain they have it that's right and if the catalogs are protesting what about spain they have it that's right and if the catalogs are protesting with that's good but if spaniards who want spain to stay together are

protesting well that's bad that's good but if spaniards who want spain to stay together are protesting well that's bad so i think there's i can't help but but suspect that there's a there and so i think the. i can't help but suspect that there's a there's a thumb on the scale and terms of our perceptions i keep waiting for a better not already or there's a thumb on the scale and terms of our perceptions i keep waiting for a better not already levy to tell us which ones are the good and which are the bad ones. levy to tell us which ones are the good which are the bad ones that he can keep his mouth shut as far as i'm concerned joshua you know. patrick can keep his mouth shut as far as i'm concerned joshua you know. patrick marty mentioned. us involvement particularly in the middle east here where you know marty mentioned. us involvement particularly in the middle east here where you know constantly putting pressure on the lebanese government to get rid of hezbollah that is constantly

putting pressure on the lebanese government to get rid of hezbollah that is elected to the offices across the country as a. elected to the offices across the country as a great deal of popularity and then that the in the end then like threatening turkey's economy and things like that i mean great deal of popularity and then that the in the end then like threatening turkey's economy and things like that i mean this doesn't make things any better i mean constantly using this doesn't make things any better i mean constantly using the dollar and the use in the financial system to punish countries around the world that just takes more dollar in the us in the financial system to punish countries around the world that just takes more options off the table doesn't it go ahead joshua. it does you know look at sanctions is a very pins off the table doesn't it go ahead joshua it does you know look at sanctions is a very brutal brutal response to trying to regulate very brutal brutal

response to trying to regulate refine to your foreign policy because it hits people right across the refined to your foreign policy because it hits people right across the board it is collective punishment in the worst way and we're seeing that in iran with sanctions or it is collective punishment in the worst way and we're seeing that in iran with sanctions on iran which of cause iran to escalate violence because they're not going to take it live on iran which have caused iran to escalate violence because they're not going to take it lying down and syria is in desperate straits and now the united states is eating down and syria is in desperate straits and now the united states is eager to take the oil which syria needs in order to rebuild and lebanon of course to take the oil which syria needs in order to rebuild and lebanon of course the u.s.

has been debating whether they should withdraw as the u.s. has been debating whether they should withdraw all foreign aid to lebanon because hizbollah is part of the government but. all foreign aid to lebanon because hizbollah is part of the government but you know the lebanese elite has been. sucky you know the lebanese elite has been. sucking money out of this system for a long time and and you know it'll be tearing money out of this system for a long time and and you know it'll be terrible if 11 on it collapses i think the whole world understands that and nobody wants lebanon to call if 11 on it collapses i think the whole world understands that and nobody wants lebanon to collapse because it really is a set of lungs of the middle east where people because it really is a set of lungs of the middle east where people can retreat to and find some kind of

comfort some kind of a sort of leaven teen playground on one hand it's a playground but on the other hand it said it can retreat to and find some kind of comfort some kind of a sort of leaven teen playground on one hand it's a playground but on the other hand it said it's a refuge for all kinds of thinking middle easterners who can some refuge for all kinds of thinking middle easterners who can't find a place in their own country so it would be terrible if that if it collapses if it find a place in their own country so it would be terrible if that if it collapses if it if it runs into bankruptcy which it could do at any moment and. it's hard if it runs into bankruptcy which it could do at any moment and. it's hard to see how they're going to how the lebanese are going to really sort out their economic see how they're going to how the lebanese are going to really sort out their economic problems because when we look at the arab spring more generally which was frame of

problems because when we look at the arab spring more generally which was framed of course as we just heard you know framed in terms of democracy. and of course as we just heard you know framed in terms of democracy. it there really hasn't been any serious economic. discussion there really hasn't been any serious economic discussions about how these how the middle eastern countries can get out of those things about how these how the middle eastern countries can get out of this terrible income gap the bad governance the corruption and that's what terrible income gap the bad governance the corruption and that's what's going to take and it's we don't really know the answers to that and people are desperate but these myths going to take and it's we don't really know the answers to that and people are desperate but these movements that have been run by social media which are easy

to gather together yet don't movements that have been run by social media which are easy to gather together yet don't have a leadership and that is something that's playing the middle east it's good to have a leadership and that is something that's playing the middle east it's good on the one hand because it means that you can't repress them but it's bad on the other hand on the one hand because it means that you can't repress them but it's bad on the other hand because when it comes time to taking control they can't do it you know anything because when it comes time to taking control they can't do it you know any and i guess i'm going to patrick before we go to the break here i mean we heard the term arab spring i always call the sunni when they get let me go to patrick before we go to the break here i mean we heard the term arab spring i always called the sunni winter and it's only getting worse here how do you reflect upon that patrick go ahead sure tour and it's only getting worse here how do you reflect upon that patrick go ahead sure i mean joshua just. saying that i'm

visiting there isn't very important to talk you know well you know we don't know leadership with these worship will with these virtual movements to remove the exist to have minutes to really exist by social media just driven by social media no no and and so so you have ideologues. people people in political political elite rehman eminence friends from the end of the previous old left are screaming in the corner for attention saying over here over here the previous old left are screaming in the corner for attention saying over here over here i want to be leading this and no one's paying attention because that's not what young people are looking for i want to be leading this and no one's paying attention because that's not what young people are looking for for what they say one what they were looking for was of his visit his ability it's what the old left was looking for as well a voice for the voiceless they found that voice online but unfortunately

a voice for the voiceless they found that voice online but unfortunately it's individualized and it's reflective of an atom an atom and eyes to society and that it's individualized and it's reflective of an atom an atom annoyed society and this is what the united states has exported this kind of corporate ties to political identity that is what the united states has exported this kind of corporate ties to political identity that replaced class identity in the. south and this is all that i have to jump placed class identity in the. south and this is all that i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on global instability stay here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on global instability stay.

i'm going to fulfill the repeated promises apollo. i'm going to fulfill the repeated promises apologise to the people and promise to be you know it's all bots to the people i promise to be you know we've all bots in the. place ready for a. place ready for a. pretty

good bertha now you want to 1st read. pretty good bertha now you want to 1st correct that. no. no.

ball the. ball be. coming out my you are. coming i can link up my. what hall of politicians isn't just to judge you because you can. be put themselves on hold on the line to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president and. want to be president i'm sure some. more some want to want to but the rest of us. have to go right to the press was like that before 3 in the morning can't be good to go on

to be press was like that before 3 in the morning can't be good good good i mean there's i'm interested in the old system and how it is it should knock out your. question session good night for. the for today and the day that i did i wouldn't it wouldn't interest and then mad at it since the bad news in yemen to the united states deems to be a threat to the good the bad news in yemen the united states deems to be a threat the good those who work in syria the cia and the u.s. military were. those who work in syria the cia and the u.s. military were engaged in covert actions really throughout the world. where they were assassinations covert actions really throughout the world. where they were

assassinating populist leaders they were backing up the right way military windows funding in our meeting populist leaders they were backing up right away military windows funding an army of death squads there's no phones anymore because there's always a small means of death squads there's no phones anymore because there's always a small call of people from really good this country prof. really could this. for profit.

well. well. you could be. welcome back across top where all things work and. welcome back to crossfire where

all things considered i'm peter we're discussing global instability. that i'm peter we're discussing global instability. ok let's go back to james here you know there was a great song i think the clash there saying that you know we should i stay or should. go back to james here you know there was a great song i think the clash there saying that you know you should i stay or should. i go ok and i think that's becoming the motto of the trumpet ministration i go ok and i think that's becoming the motto of the trumpet ministrations attitude towards syria which i. did. attitude towards syria which i.

admit it's a dismal policy i mean we could do hours talking about it here but i think there's a dismal policy i mean we could do hours talking about it here but i think there's broadly speaking i think there is a sense that the u.s. will broadly speaking i think there is a sense that the u.s. will and will withdraw from the middle east you know of course they'll be the will withdraw from the middle east of course they'll be the. grahams out there and they'll be the tom cotton's and people like that they want the grahams out there and they'll be the tom cotton's and people like that they want to keep the united states in the middle east but i think the writing is on the wall here that it's some to keep the united states in the middle east but i think the writing is on the wall here that itself is creating instability because so much dependency the u.s. has created wealth is creating instability because so much dependency the u.s.

has created among many of the elites in the middle east that and they're going to have to start thinking twice and they have among many elites in the middle east that and they're going to have to start thinking twice and they have social movements that see that are disenfranchised of social movements that see. disenfranchised rising up and they are you going to have elites not being able to be clients the same kind of client rising up and they are you going to have elites not being able to be clients the same kind of clients that they have been for decades go ahead james well i i think that they have been for decades go ahead james. well i i think you're a little more optimistic than i am that we're actually going to get out of the middle east we so i think that and i think you're a little more optimistic than i am that we're actually going to get out of the middle east we so i think that and i must know my mind my timeframe and and my time frame is like 1015 years or so now my mind my time frame and and my time frame is

like 1015 years ago and it's not in this administration i'm sorry to keep going. the ok you're and it's not in this administration i'm sorry to keep going. the ok you're right you're a right about that although what that looks like at the end of the day i don't think anybody you're right you're a right about that although what that looks like at the end of the day i don't think anybody can say. you're right i don't know how much that relates you can say . you're right i don't know how much that relates to elites versus people you know one thing i notice about these protests is that these are large to elites versus people you know one thing i notice about these protests is that these are largely an urban phenomenon and you sort of wonder how representative they are of the rest of the country and urban phenomenon and you sort of wonder how representative they are of the rest of the country you know everybody's making the comparison to the arab spring very few people are making the very you know everybody's making the comparison to the arab spring very few people are making the comparison to the

color revolutions we've seen over the last couple decades were which were largely comparison to the color revolutions we've seen over the last couple decades were which were largely i would say in many cases an astroturf phenomenon they really were not representative of the country and i would say in many cases that astroturf phenomenon they really were not representative of the country at all although western governments were quick to say the ukrainian people have chosen this the georgian people although western governments were quick to say the ukrainian people have chosen this the georgian people have chosen that so i do wonder sometimes about what the outside meddling in these 3 people have chosen that so i do wonder some. times about what the outside meddling in these things are as well as the underlying goal between the elites things are as well as the underlying goal between the elites and as patrick has pointed out and atomized especially younger people and as patrick has pointed out and atomized especially younger people but

you're right if we do end up getting out of the middle east and i think the really the big question is going to but you're right if we do end up getting out of the middle east and i think the really the big question is going to be what happens in saudi arabia yet if we really yet end up withdrawing from the what happens in saudi arabia yet if we really yet end up withdrawing from the middle east because if you're looking for a powder keg so there is one well james i can tell you is in the middle east because if you're looking for a powder keg there's one well james i can tell you is that what happens in saudi arabia i can tell you right away i don't know what it will be but it won't be good ok that's printed what happens in saudi arabia i can tell you right away i don't know what it will be but it won't be good ok that's for sure ok joshua you know it's been it's been already been brought up here now and i think i'm sure ok. you know it's been it's been already been brought up here now and i think it's important to discuss here i mean you're an expert in lebanon you lived there for many many years i mean it's important to discuss here i mean you're an expert on

lebanon you lived there for many many years i mean on the one hand i do see the legitimate protests ok but you know on the one hand i do see the legitimate protests ok but you know james in washington does bring up the issue of outside meddling and we've seen this in hong kong james in washington does bring up the issue of outside meddling and we've seen this in hong kong and particularly how the media frames it so a tough question i suppose but you know and particularly how the media frames it so a tough question i suppose but you know how legitimate is it and how much outside influence you think is possibly there but how legitimate is it and how much out. influence you think is possibly there because there are people are saying sure roses in lebanon right now others are saying this is grass because there are people are saying sure roses in lebanon right now others are saying this is grassroots this is legitimate people are sick and tired of it how do you weigh those things joshua roots is legitimate people are sick and tired of it how do you weigh those

things joshua i think this is legitimate and i think people are sick and tired and part of the. i think this is legitimate and i think people are sick and tired and part of the right way you can tell it is that it's not sectarian there are of course everybody is trying to separate way you can tell it is that it's not sectarian there are of course everybody is trying to spin it as a sectarian yet you know spin their sectarian view and so spin it as a sectarian yet you know spin their sectarian view and so you know a lot of the western press is is trying to highlight the role of it you know a lot of the western press is is trying to highlight the role is a lioness in that there's criticism of his ball and it's the reason that it's taking place is a lioness and that there's criticism of his ball and it's the reason that it's taking place is because hizbollah is to has gained such a predominant part in the government is because hizbollah is to has gained such a predominant part in the government and so forth but you know i think the lebanese

most people realize that you know most so forth but you know i think the lebanese and most people realize that you know most people are just worried about where they're going to get enough money to live expenses is going but they're just worried about where they're going to get enough money to live expenses has gone through the roof you know electric is irregular you can't get good internet all this through the roof you know electric is irregular you can't get good internet all the services that lebanese want whether it's picking up the garbage shirt just keeping the services that lebanese want whether it's picking up the garbage shirt just keeping the streets clean or not making sure people don't park on the sidewalk all those little insults that reads clean and not making sure people don't park on the sidewalk all those little insults that overwhelm you when you're in lebanon after a while i think of a piled up that overwhelm you when you're in lebanon after a while i think of

a piled up and that's why you're seeing people joining hands from one end of the country to the other it's symbolic and that's. why you're seeing people joining hands from one end of the country to the other it's symbolic and it's course it's can be you know it can be twisted a little bit but i think at heart it and its course it can be you know it can be twisted a little bit but i think at heart that the lebanese lebanese really really want want want there go their government has to spend some special and some snow to soft some of these some of these economic kind of comic problems which have not been solved the same question you put patrick you know how do you know how do you how do you put the skate the sales case taylor of use they don't care if you keep it open and cheaply when wanting to mention family name and you want to name 2 way on foot solomon died on the out side and then when the last root squeezed grass roots grievances instead we will says or does the city will numerated but way i just enough numerated with joshua go ahead ed. i think lebanon is actually

a good example back to and i agree with everything josh i think lebanon is actually a good example back to and i agree with everything joshua said and i think it's clear this is a genuine it very much resembles the occupy movement said and i think it's clear this is a genuine it very much resembles the occupy movement in the sense that the young people in lebanon on regardless of their sect or their women in the sense that the young people in lebanon on regardless of their sect or their affiliations religious affiliations agree that there's an oligarchy and the problem is in all of affiliations religious affiliations agree that there's an oligarchy and the problem is an oligarchy kind of privileged in a hereditary class unfortunately it's also a sectarian arche kind of privileged in a hereditary class unfortunately it's also a sectarian all of our key and that's a result of the confessional system that's been imposed on lebanon on all of our key and that's a result of the confessional system that's been imposed on lebanon and we might see

the end of that perhaps by the end of this to mulch us and we might see the end of that perhaps by the end of this to mulch of this period but i think more than that there's this issue of the united states and the period but i think more than that there's this issue of the united states meddling you have to address the fact that during the cold war the number one priority idling you have to address the fact that during the cold war the number one priority of the u.s. was to thwart or to move out of power any left leaning of the u.s. was to thwart or to move out of power any left leaning government around the globe and that was number one priority that was in central america some government around the globe and that was number one priority that was in central america south america in the middle east including arab nationalist governments that were america in the middle east including arab nationalist governments that work. seem to be

going in a socialist direction so. really disempowered seem to be going in a socialist direction so it's really disempowered a lot of countries over the years and i think the us has won that cold war it's our to lot of countries over the years and i think the us has won that cold war it's one that imperialist war globally and it's now exported its atom on that imperialist war globally and it's now exported it's atomized and individualize societies to the point where i don't think they have the political and individualize societies to the point where i don't think they have the political direction or where with all our ability ideological ability to find out what's better what's the direction or where with all our ability ideological ability to find out what's better what's a better option than neoliberal economics it's people are pains to find the and a better option than neoliberal economics it's people are pains to find the answer

to that question right now and so it turns anarchic in anarchism sir to that question right now and so it turns anarchic in anarchism seems to be expressed more than political organizing and real solutions this is them seems to be expressed more than political organizing and real solutions this is the problem that they're all facing right now many of them oh that's not a good message at all the problem that they're all facing right now many of them oh that's not a good message at all is go back to washington here if we could bring up the case of iraq here where you know is go back to washington here if we could bring up the case of iraq here where you know the some of the troops that withdrawn from syria american troops are being sent to iraq without the the some of the troops that withdrawn from syria american troops are being sent to iraq without the permission of the iraqi government and the whole issue of american troops in iraq or information of the iraqi government and the whole issue of american troops in iraq

or is. hotly contested here how does that add to a lot of the protests because it's hotly contested here how does that add to a lot of the protests because there's been a lot in iraq and a lot of people who actually died go ahead james you know that in a lot in iraq a lot of people actually died go ahead james yes that's right and you raised the issue of people dying you know we've had people being killed and just right and you raised the issue of people dying you know we've had people being killed in chile over what over over bus prices i mean it is one of the things i can't really over what over over bus prices i mean it is one of the things i can't help but notice it again not only in the in the arab spring but also in the color revolutions is it help but notice again not only in the in the arab spring but also in the color revolutions is how the media covers the question of the use of force that i say well you know you see for example i remember in kiev in 2014 they were saying oh

look at the police how the media covers the question of the use of force that i say well you know you see for example i remember in kiev in 2014 they were saying oh look at the police beating up in a desperate nazir's rage and then factors if you don't have the thought of looked at the foot and actually started. beating up the police what's the what's what is the the ratio or the or the least what's the what's what is the the ratio or the or the or the or the equities between what what i'm doing to force or restraint is being being used by the authorities already know what's on one hand and how militant violence are and even using deadly violence you're seeing something and and how militant violent are and even using deadly violence you're seeing sometimes from people in the crowds and you wonder look i'm not i'm not a believer in times for people in the crowds and you wonder look i'm not i'm not

a believer in the whole. marxist paradigm that you know once the once the oppressed masses reach a certain level of the whole marxist paradigm that you know once the once the oppressed masses reach a certain level of misery they rise up as one and righteous righteous indignation things don't look don't happen as they rise up as one and righteous righteous indignation things don't look don't happen that way people don't behave that way and still has to be some kind of there has been that way people don't behave that way and still has to be some kind of there has to be some kind of a even if they don't have leaders in the way that joshua refers there's somebody some kind of even if they don't have leaders in the way that joshua refers there's somebody somebody ends up organizing this somebody ends up taking the lead and there's usually 30 somebody ends up organizing this somebody ends up taking the lead and there's the usually fairly small groups of people that sort of set the tone and get other pierre lee small groups of people that sort of set the tone and

get other people involved and i get i guess i'm a bit of a cynic i i always wonder people involved and i get i guess i'm a bit of a cynic i i always wonder who is the hidden hand behind the scenes and of course this is also an accusation it's you who is the hidden hand behind the scenes and of course this is also an accusation that's used by a by the american side you see there's an american diplomat saying that the proposed by a by the american side you see there's an american diplomat saying that the problems in chile are being fed by who else by vladimir putin the russians are causing it so that's really are being fed by who else by vladimir putin the russians are causing it so that's more russian meddling so i i don't know i always want to look at the different layers of russian battling so i i don't know i always want to look at the different layers of the onion here and see what all is going on the young all he way or through and see what a different and well there is going to swing. all the way through the different layers in joshua. blaming russia for everything is like going to the onion website

but anyway joshua you know blaming russia for everything is like going to the onion website but anyway joshua you know you're you're a well renowned well known well highly respect joshua you know you're you're a well renowned well known well highly respected middle east expert here how do you see western media coverage the middle east expert here how how do you see western media coverage of what's happening in the middle east with these protests here do they have do they have the right of what's happening in the middle east with these protests here do they have do they have the right optic go ahead. you know i think the western optic go ahead. you know i think the western media has gone through a real education over the last. 15 year has gone through a real education over the last. 15 years trying to figure out the middle east and

they really bought into in years trying to figure out the middle east and they really bought into. they bought into george bush's original argument that. they bought into george bush's original argument that that america could scrape off these governments and create a mob that america could scrape off these governments and create democracy in the middle east i think today americans are much more ocracy in the middle east i think today americans are much more a bit more sophisticated and more cynical about what's going on in the middle east or exhaust a bit more sophisticated and more cynical about what's going on in the middle east or exhausted a yeah there are exhausted and they've spent you know president troposphere day so yeah there are exhausted and they've spent you know president trump is hitting that

. hitting that very hard meat he keeps on reiterating we've spent 7 trillion in not hitting that very hard meat he keeps on reiterating we've spent 7 trillion dollars i think he said 8 trillion the other day but we spent a lot of money and americans in dollars i think he said 8 trillion the other day but we've spent a lot of money and americans haven't paid for that they've just put it on the credit card it's going to come due and i haven't paid for that they've just put it on the credit card it's going to come due and and i think there they are feeling exhausted they want to get out they don't they and i think they're they are feeling exhausted they want to get out they don't they realize that this is not a place that america can wave a wand and fix we're seeing realize that this is not a place that america can wave a wand and fix we're seeing this attempt to get out of afghanistan get out of syria . this attempt to get out of afghanistan get out of syria there are plenty of

forces that are pulling us right back in and and americans don't want to a but there are plenty of forces that are pulling us right back in and and americans don't want to abandon of course a position like afghanistan and just but they are realizing that and and of course a position like afghanistan and just but they are realizing that this is a complicated region i think that we are going to see america withdraw that this is a complicated region i think that we are going to see america withdraw a lot more because they are more cynical about these forces they realize there's not an iraq a lot more because they are more cynical about these forces they realize there's not an easy answer that underneath the surface of language like we see answer that underneath the surface of language like we all want a better shake there are a lot of sectarian forces there are all want a better shake there are a lot of sectarian forces there are we have to. forces and their ethnic forces that

are not easy to contain and that can be very violent and destructive and and that america can't or with actual forces and their ethnic forces that are not easy to contain and that can be very violent and destructive and and that america can't manipulate them we've we've seen that in this was with a kurd a kurd her. side with the kern's that dumping the kurds it's now a sort of very crass grab for now in so. which very crass grab for oil in syria which is which is i think a sigh 3rd think a. lot of of of. the dog michigan of a lot of american arkan's and now this is sort of money grab we're just going to go for the oil sattar rabia grab the oil now this is sort of money grab we're just going to go for the oil sattar rabia grab the oil and syria it is it undermines.

whatever in syria it is it undermines. whatever principles america can bring to the table and it really shows an ugly face or principles america can bring to the table and it really shows an ugly face to the power in the middle east today that to power in the middle east today that that. that doesn't have answers yeah but i mean you will have to end on nap. that doesn't have answers yeah but i mean you will have to end on that point here but you know the lack of principles the feeling someone else is now to resources so they can't point here but you know the lack of principles stealing someone else's now to resources so they can't rebuild to build build build i mean i don't know i don't have no more don't have more back confed be the ok button can be ok but unfortunately it's not really part of the. that way in western media gentlemen

that's all the time we have many thanks and i guess only it's not really portrayed that way in western media gentlemen that's all the time we have many thanks to my guests in washington plymouth and in norman and thanks to our viewers for watching us here c.n.n. washington plymouth and in norman and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember. next time and remember. she. cooked up the dishes issue some. of what was announcing out so to put a little bit into some of these it's just a simple system. with. no.

see him do you. see him do you see when i'm with you to. look at with a showing at the cinema if you. look at with the showing of the. he's like i'm sure. he's like i'm sure. you have your patients that a. lot of shipping. your patients than a. lot of shipping. most of the book is. in the process emotion in the book you're. the person you're not sure who's you know i don't know what the. mizuno could do nothing for the

move. was the latest losing the focus. was the latest losing the focus. boise leaflets the show yet of putting this was going to do some. research through some really stupid. choices believe that the whole yet of putting this was going to do some. research through some really stupid the social it does raise. the social it does raise. an almost show small seemed wrong all right old roles just don't all childs seemed

wrong all right old roles just don't call. me old beliefs yet to shape our disdain to come get me the old beliefs yet to shape our disdain to come to educate and engage with equals betrayal advocate and engage with equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart. just. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground . to look for common ground. during the great depression. during the great depression which i'm old enough to remember there was most of my family were unemployed working. there

would have to remember there was most of my family were unemployed working. there wasn't it was bed you know much worse objectively than today but there was an explanation and it was bed you know much worse objectively than today but there was an expectation that things were going to get better. there was a real sense of hope for patients the things were going to get better. there was a real sense of hopefulness there isn't today today's america was shaped by the 10 principles there isn't today today's america was shaped by the 10 principles of concentration of wealth and power. of a concentration of wealth and power. reduced democracy attack solid doubt engineer elections reduced democracy attack solid doubt engineer elections manufacture consent and other principles according to

manufacture consent and other principles according to no i'm jones one set of rules for the rich offices no i'm jones one set of rules for the rich offices. that's what happens when you put her into the national. that's what happens when you put her into the hands of a narrow sector of will which will is. narrow sector of will which will is dedicated to increasing power for itself just as you'd expect one of the most influence at a kid to increasing power for itself just as you'd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the modern civilization of american chill intellectuals of our time. speaks to most of the modern civilization the american.

representatives of the syrian government the opposition and society. representatives of the syrian government the opposition and society meet and they are in a big big did to bring peace to the to their war there were 2 or more in the country entry. also this hour detained american journalist max blumenthal claims he was arrested also this hour detained american journalist max blumenthal claims he was arrested on false charges of assault for his reporting on venezuelan opposition violence one false charges of assault for his reporting on venezuelan opposition violence we hear from his lawyer. he was denied access

here from his lawyer. he was denied access for a phone call to contact an attorney or his family these charges are late for a phone call to contact an attorney or his family these charges are blatantly false and highly in court. and the u.k. is false and highly in the court. and the u.k. is heading out in from for a general election as part parliament are put. on some of the bills. at the summer tour that all the 12 votes to break. in pasts.