well it was it. was it was a total of you know if you look at. the you know if you look at. in the u.k. an inquiry into the deadly 2017 grenfell powerplays in the u.k. an inquiry into the deadly 2017 grenfell powerplays calls out significances stemming failings in the london fire brigade but with little schools out significances stemming failings in the london fire brigade but with little spotlight placed on city and governmental authorities it does tell us that the football club placed on city and government authorities. tell us that the focus is

misplaced. far far as. opposed to for this is misplaced. for far as the calls to far room for time for thoughts of not responsible for fixing it from a group from the to the groom for terms of not responsible for fixing it from a group from the material on the outside of the towers. a new report by human rule on the outside of the tower. a new report by human rights watch says u.s. sanctions are preventing ordinary iranians from accessing life rights watch says u.s. sanctions are preventing ordinary iranians from accessing lifesaving medicine. and love them it proves him meets with the hunger saving medicine. and love them it proves him meets with the hungry and prime minister viktor irritating western allies on the same day garion prime minister viktor orban irritating western allies on the same day hung. joint makes

a statement on ukraine. about the same degree vetoes a joint makes a statement on ukraine. about a friend named andrew fama will be here with you next hour with the latest news from around the world from named andrew famo will be here with you next hour with the latest news from around the world and stay with us for cross talk next here on international. and stay with us we'll cross talk next here on international.

and hello and welcome to crossfire where all things are considered time's peter lavelle all across the middle east and beyond the welcome to cross talk where all things are considered time's peter lavelle all across the middle east and beyond there are large scale protests and growing political instability in many countries the old way are large scale protests and growing political instability in many countries the old ways of doing business but only in rich privileged elite while the prospects for the many ways of doing business but only in rich privileged elite while the prospects for the many are few and far in between the elites have answers for today's growing problem are few and far in between the elites have answers for today's growing problems.

starting global and. starting global instability i'm joined by my guest james jatra and watch and he's a former u.s. diplomat and former advisor ability i'm joined by my guest james jatra and watch and he's a former u.s. diplomat and former advisor to the u.s. senate republican leadership in plymouth we have he is the answer to the u.s. senate republican leadership in plymouth we have he is the executive editor of the news web site 21st century wired dot com and in norman we cross-checked you to editor of the news website 21st century wired dot com and in norman we cross to joshua landis he is director of the center of middle east studies at the university joshua landis he is director of the center of middle east studies at the university of oklahoma all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate joshua oklahoma all right gentlemen crosstalk rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate joshua let me go to you 1st in norman all across the globe we have iraq

we let me go to you 1st in norman all across the globe we have iraq we have we have lebanon we have chile we have many other places around the world plus we have we have lebanon we have chile we have many other places around the world plus we have the whole division over bragg's it in the u.k. we have the division in the united so the whole division over brags that in the u.k. we have the division in the united states there's a lot of instability out there but i want to talk about the specific country of lebanon just states there's a lot of instability out there but i want to talk about the specific country of lebanon just to start to start it off you off here a lot a lot of people say that it is the what the there are for the for the region region what happens then whatever 1st happens that is there today 1st indications and what is an indication that possibly in part with possible happily and probably will happen and the number of other countries in the region how do you

reflect upon that go ahead joshua. and the number of other countries in the region how do you reflect upon that go ahead joshua well i think here i think the curator of lebanon is going on as one of the one of these is the 3rd most most indebted countries in the tree world in the world. salad riyadh's made him a head of the central head band i think sensitive to the fact that if you develop the concrete crash economically a comical he's a protest has to go on monday much much longer but the protests are in many many ways. i think a reflection of tremendous change in the world i think a reflection of tremendous change in the world. and income gap that that is what is your view on him but what i mean when rich rich and poor and and we can see can see that that from from a cook across the world old. you know you know you're europe is the most

equal part of the world at 30 percent of wealth is held by the top 10 percent part of the world at 30 percent of wealth is held by the top 10 percent but the middle east is the worst it's 61 percent of all what but the middle east is the worst it's 61 percent of all wealth is held by the top 10 percent now russia and america are hovering you know if it's held by the top 10 percent now russia and america are hovering in the middle in the butt but it's you know the world is becoming more and more we're on beat but it's that you know the world is becoming more and more unequal and i think in places where you have bad governments like lebanon iraq will and i think in places where you have bad governments like lebanon iraq egypt syria you're seeing this kind of explosion like egypt syria you're seeing this kind

of explosion of real you know there's not enough jobs there's bad government people are written of real you know there's not enough jobs there's bad government people are robbing at the top and the public feels like they're getting a very bad deal robbing at the top and the public feels like they're getting a very bad deal and they're up in arms you know patrick i did everything that joshua to said there and they're up in arms you know patrick i did everything that joshua to said there but we have the. ruling elites as i said in my introduction you know still doing business as you know but we have these ruling elites as i said in my introduction you know still doing business as usual the old ways here and this is a real wake up call and one more thing we look at the usual the old ways here and this is a real wake up call and one more thing we look at the disparity in income we can look at the usefulness of a lot of these countries a lot of people

a disparity in income we can look at the usefulness of a lot of these countries a lot of people. under 18 and what prospects do they have here but my issue. under 18 and what prospects do they have here but my issue is with governance here what's it going to take because as joshua pointed out here this is was with governance here what's a good take because as joshua pointed out here this is this can explode it is exploding go ahead battery you know this is a very different this can explode it is exploding go ahead battery you know this is a very difficult topic to kind of get your head around because there's so many. topic to kind of get your head around because there's so many uprising zorra does so much political unrest happening simultaneously and i think there's a tendency by the meetings or does so much political unrest happening simultaneously and i think there's a tendency by the media by political commentators by economists and political

called by political commentators by economists and political economist to try to find some generalized terms to sort of describe what it is to try to find some generalized terms to sort of describe what's like a global phenomenon i think that was a mistake that the west made with the arab spring what's like a global phenomenon i think that was a mistake that the west made with the arab spring by putting it all into one kind of soup and i think the reality is you have by putting it all into one kind of soup and i think the reality is you have you have. print aspects and different characteristics with eat you have different aspects and different characteristics with each of these there are commonalities however if you want to talk about overarching of these there are commonalities however if you want to talk about overarching frameworks for analyzing this you've got post colonial identity issues

you've got frameworks for analyzing this you've got post colonial identity issues you've got post colonial border mapmaking issues that are still plaguing places like the post colonial border mapmaking issues that are still plaguing places like the middle east all the way back from war one you've got neo liberal policies e a liberal middle east all the way back from war one you've got neo liberal policies elian of neo liberal policies you have us meddling which would go into a lot of neo liberal policies you have us meddling which would go under the banner of imperialism you could say u.s. foreign policy this is all the banner of imperialism you could say u.s. foreign policy this is also a big big issue how that effects and how it has affected a lot of these countries also a big big issue how that effects and how it has affected a lot of these countries in regions and you also have the failure of soviet era

collectivist in regions and you also have the failure of soviet era collectivist social economic structures and dependency issues. social economic structures and dependency issues and also dependency issues with all of these countries economically i mean you look at a country and also dependency issues with all of these countries economically i mean you look at a country like lebanon they have absolutely nothing that they produce they import every like lebanon they have absolutely nothing that they produce they import everything there. canonically completely dependent on things like foreign aid and do you thing they're economically completely dependent on things like foreign aid and an ngo sector economy that sort of drives the middle class in a country that's just an ngo sector economy that sort of drives the middle class in a country that's just one example so it's it is very difficult i think hong kong is

also one example so it's it is very difficult i think hong kong is also has been mischaracterized by the press because it's it wasn't has been mischaracterized by the press because it's it wasn't just an uprising to do with class this had something to do with just uprising to do with class this had something to do with change this was kind of an imported revolution this is indicative of the change this was kind of an imported revolution this is indicative of the into individualized young middle class global city into individualized young middle class global citizen yet that exists virtually their identity from social media and i think that is and yet that exists virtually their identity from social media and i think that also drives that change drives it but they don't know where to go with this change well the political organ also drives that change

drives it but they don't know where to go with this change well the political organizing isn't there the ideas aren't there to go anywhere with it you know where you patrick you just did izing isn't there that the ideas aren't there to go anywhere with it you know where you patrick you just did a ph d. on t.v. in about 3 minutes easing to me let me go to james now ph d. on t.v. in about 3 minutes that's amazing to me let me go to james now you know i guess you know that this has a lot to do with expectations and i think that you know you know i guess you know that this has a lot to do with expectations and i think that you know patrick was hit the. in the head there and b. people being so interconnected was hit the nail on the head there and b people being so interconnected is well here but you know what what we have here is we we have a global neck that is well here but you know what what we have here is we we have global elites that are not delivering they're doing quite well and they don't have

any solution leads that are not delivering they're doing quite well and they don't have any solutions here and at the same time you have a lot of people protesting it in more than protestations here and at the same time you have a lot of people protesting it in more than protesting out of the fact that they don't see that they have a future here and that is a toxic mixture out of the fact that they don't see that they have a future here and that is a toxic mixture go ahead james it is that i think those are the maybe of some of the factors we see in common or go ahead james it is that i think those are the making of some of the factors we see in common with these things and then as we all know that there are disparate causes like in chile it's transit with these things and then as we all know that there are disparate causes like in chile it's transportation prices in lebanon it was communications and cell phones and what sop and thanks for taking prizes in lebanon or was communications and cell phones and whatsapp and things like that i can't help but wonder though peter that what what

was like that i can't help but wonder though peter that what what more is there that meets the eye i always wonder why for example some protests and summers there that meets the eye i always wonder why for example some protests in some countries get very favorable treatment from the global media which sarah shares some countries get very favorable treatment from the global media which sarah shares the same neo liberal ideology is what these people are supposedly protesting against the same neo liberal ideology is what these people are supposedly protesting against in many cases. in other cases they don't get such good press for example in many cases and other cases they don't get such good press for example i've noticed in all of this very few people mention sort of the the granddaddy of all this in the last year and i notice in all of this very few people mention sort of the the granddaddy of all this in the last year or so which is the yellow vests in france which i think very much were

a working class which is the yellow vests in france which i think very much were a working class phenomenon against the very things we're describing but they're bad you see because there are there are vast phenomenon against the very things we're describing but they're bad you see because they're there or they're there they're not really they're the bad kind of populist as they pose to what's wrong cause they're they're not really they're the bad kind of populist as they pose to what's wrong kong that's going to go on the populous the kids in hong kong are good ok that in the in the yellow vests are on that's going to go on the populace the kids in hong kong are good ok that in the in the yellow vests or are disco yeah exactly they're depending on who we should say about spain they have a disco yeah exactly they're there to pay for it we should say about spain they have it that's right and if the catalogs are protesting with that's good but of spirit that's right and if the catalogs are protesting with that's good but if spaniards who want spain to stay together proton you're rich well who that wants but bad at spain's illustrated by getting their approach to this there's

a thing well that's bad so i think there's i can't help but but suspect that there's a there's a i in the sky i can't help but but suspect that there's a there's a thumb on the scale and terms of our perceptions i i keep waiting for a better not on a levy to tell us we all in terms of our perceptions i i keep waiting for a better not on a levy to tell us which ones are the good times and which are the bad ones. but he can keep his mouth shut it's one of the good times in which the bad ones. well he can keep his mouth shut as far as i'm concerned joshua. you know that patrick marty mentioned in a far as i'm concerned joshua you know that patrick marty mentioned. u.s. involvement particularly in the middle east here where you know constantly putting pressure on u.s. involvement particularly in the middle east here where you know constantly putting pressure on the lebanese government to get rid of hezbollah that is elected to

their own the lebanese government to get rid of hezbollah that is elected to the offices all across the country as a great deal of popularity to offices across the country as a great deal of popularity and then that the in the in the and then like threatening turkey's economy and things like that i mean this doesn't it and then that the in the in the and then like threatening turkey's economy and things like that i mean this doesn't make things any better i mean constantly using the dollar and the you make things any better i mean constantly using the dollar in the in the financial system to punish countries around the world that just takes more options off the table the financial system to punish countries around the world that just takes more options off the table doesn't it go ahead joshua it does you know look sanctions is a very brutal brutal and it go ahead joshua it does you know look sanctions is a very brutal brutal response to trying to regulate refined little

response to trying to regulate refined to your foreign policy because it hits people right across the board it is collective pop your foreign policy because it hits people right across the board it is collective punishment in the worst way and we're seeing that in iran with sanctions on iran which have caused it want to schmidt in the worst way and we're seeing that in iran with sanctions on iran which have caused iran to escalate violence because they're not going to take it lying down on to escalate violence because they're not going to take it lying down serious in desperate straits. now the united states is eager to take the oil that syria's in desperate straits and now the united states is eager to take the oil which syria needs in order to rebuild and lebanon of course the you know which syria needs in order to rebuild and lebanon of course the u.s. has been debating whether they should withdraw all has been debating

whether they should withdraw all foreign aid to lebanon because hizbollah is part of the government but you know foreign aid to lebanon because hizbollah is part of the government but you know the lebanese he leet has been sucking money out of this system the lebanese he leet has been. sucking money out of this system for a long time and and you know it'll be terrible if 11 on a collapse for a long time and and you know it'll be terrible if 11 on it collapses i think the whole world understands that and nobody wants lebanon to collapse because it really is ups as i think the whole world understands that and nobody wants lebanon to collapse because it really isn't the sort of loans of the middle east where people can retrieve the sort of loans of the middle east where people can retreat to and find some kind of comfort some kind of a sort of leaven teen preach to and find some kind of comfort some kind of

a sort of leaven teen playground on one hand it's a playground but on the other hand it's a it's a refuge for all a ground on one hand it's that playground but on the other hand it's a it's a refuge for all kinds of thinking middle easterners who can't find a place in their own coal kinds of thinking middle easterners who can't find a place in their own country so it would be terrible if that if it collapses if it if it runs into ventry so it would be terrible if that if it collapses if it if it runs into bankruptcy which it could do at any moment and. it's hard to see how they're going to see which it could do at any moment and. it's hard to see how they're going to how the lebanese are going to really sort out their economic problems because how the lebanese are going to really sort out their economic problems because when we look at the arab spring more generally which was framed of course as we when we look at the arab spring more generally which was framed of

course as we just heard you know framed in terms of democracy it it just heard you know framed in terms of democracy it it there really hasn't been any serious economic discussions about how there really hasn't been any serious economic. discussions about how these how the middle eastern countries can get out of this terrible income gap all these how the middle eastern countries can get out of this terrible income gap the bad governance the corruption and that's what's going to take and it's the bad governance the corruption and that's what's going to take and it's we don't really know the answers to that and people are desperate but these movements that have been run by so don't really know the answers to that and people are desperate but these movements that have been run by social media which are easy to gather together yet don't have a leadership osho media which are easy to gather together yet don't have

a leadership and that is something that's playing the middle east it's good on the one hand because you know and that has been something that's plagued the middle east it's good on the one hand because it means that you can't repress them but it's bad on the other hand because when it comes it means that you can't repress them but it's bad on the other hand because when it comes time to taking control they can't do it you know any and i guess i'm going to patter it's time to taking control they can't do it you know any and i guess i'm going to patrick before we go to the break here i mean we heard the term arab spring i always call the sunni winter and it's only getting worse or going to break here i mean we heard the term arab spring i always call the sunni winter and it's only getting worse here how do you reflect upon that patrick go ahead sure i think joshua just touched us here how he would like to bomb that patrick go ahead sure i think joshua just touched on something that is very important needs to he's talking about you know no leadership with these virtues on something that's very important needs to he's talking about

you know no leadership with these virtual movements that really exist are driven by social media no and so you will movements that really exist are driven by social media no and so you have ideological people in old political elite reminisce from the the previous ideological people in the old political leaders. eminence from the the previous old left screaming in the corner for attention saying over here over here i want to be left screaming in the corner for attention saying over here over here i want to be leading this and no one's paying attention because that's not what young people are looking for what they want eating this and no one's paying attention because that's not what young people are looking for what they want what they were looking for was visibility it's what the old left was looking for as well a voice for what they were looking for was visibility it's what the old left was looking for as well a voice for the voiceless they found that voice online but unfortunately it's individual eyes of the voiceless they found that voice online but unfortunately

it's individualized and it's reflective of an atom an atom and eyes to society and this is what the united states and it's reflective of an atom an atom and eyes to society and this is what the united states has exported this kind of corporate ties to political identity that replaced class identity has exported this kind of corporate ties to political identity that replaced class identity in the. south on this is all that i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and. this is all that i have to jump in here we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on global instability. after that short break we'll continue our discussion on global instability.

we just was talking surprises. i we were. talking surprises. i was on the. kinds so no need to trouble myself about it oxo i was a pretty kind so no need to trouble myself about it hot so i wasn't ready for all that madam it's all things happening damned that when they began to flow of it madam it's all things happening damned that when they began to act it was the spine that the society as it is was ready to go it was the spine that the society as it is was ready sue we asked what it sees as an entrepreneur done just. what it seems to have monthly or done jobs.

good politicians do something. good politicians do something. to put themselves on the line. to get accepted or rejected. them so a lot. to get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president i'm sure. more so want to be rich so when you want to be president i'm sure. more so want to be rich. but you'd like to be closer to see what before 3 of the boys. that you'd like to be close to see what before 3 of them all can't be good to. live in pursuit always in the waters of. their ship.

can't be good to. live in pursuit always in the waters of. their ship. welcome back to crossfire. welcome back to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing global instability. all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remount we're discussing global instability . ok let's go back to james here you know. ok let's go back to james here you know there was a great song i think the clash there saying that you know you should i mean there was a great song i think the clash there saying that you know you should i stay or should

i go ok and i think that's becoming the next stage of your show what i hope they go and i think that's becoming the motto of the trumpet ministrations attitude towards syria which i this had been ministrations attitude towards syria which i. admit it's a dismal policy i mean we could do talking about it here but i do it's a dismal policy i mean we could do talking about it here but i think there's a broad belief i think that i think there is. a little seeking i think there is a sense that the u.s. will and will in. the middle. middle east. be of course they'll be the the grahams out there and they'll be the tom cotton's and p. the the grahams out there and they'll be the tom cotton's and people like that they

want to keep the united states in the middle east but i think the writing is on the wall here people like that they want to keep the united states in the middle east but i think the writing is on the wall here that itself is creating instability because so much dependency the u.s. has created that itself is. hating instability because so much dependency the u.s. has created among many elites in the middle east and they're going to have to start thinking twice among many elites in the middle east and they're going to have to start thinking twice and they have social movements that see. this in and they have social movements that see. disenfranchised rising up in the are you going to have elites not being able to be clients the same kind of clients that they have been for decades go ahead james well i pay franchised rising up in there are you going to have elites not being able to be clients the same kind of clients that they have been for decades go ahead james well i i think you're

a little more optimistic than i am that we're actually going to get out of the middle east where you so i think i think you're a little more optimistic than i am that we're actually going to get out of the middle east we so i think that i'm on. my time frame and on my time frame is like 10 that i'm on. my time frame and on my time frame is like 1015 years ago and it's not in this administration i'm sorry to keep going. the juniors are going and it's not in this administration i'm sorry to keep going. the ok you're right you're right about that although what that looks like at the end of the day either you're right you're right about that although what that looks like at the end of the day i don't think anybody can say. you're right i don't know how much that and i don't think anybody can say. you're right i don't know how much that relates to elites versus people you know one thing i notice about these protests is that relates to elites versus people you know one thing i notice about these protests is that these

are largely an urban phenomenon and you sort of wonder how representative they are of these are largely an urban phenomenon and you sort of wonder how representative they are of the rest of the country you know everybody's making the comparison to the arab spring the rest of the country yeah you know. everybody is making the comparison to the arab spring very few people are making the comparison to the color revolutions we've seen over the last couple decades were which were few people are making the comparison to the color revolutions we've seen over the last couple decades were which were largely i would say in many cases an astroturf phenomenon they really were not represent were largely i would say in many cases an astroturf phenomenon they really were not representative of the country at all although western governments were quick to say the ukrainian people have chosen this out of the country at all although western governments were quick to say the ukrainian people have chosen this the georgian people have chosen that so i do wonder sometimes about what the outside of the georgian people have chosen that so i do wonder sometimes about what the outside meddling in these things are as well

as the underlying goal of meddling in these things are as well as the underlying goal between the elites and as patrick has pointed out and adam ised especially younger puy in the elites and as patrick is pointing out and adam ised especially younger people but you're right if we do end up getting out of the middle east and i think the really the people but you're right if we do end up getting out of the middle east and i think the really the big question is going to be what happens in saudi arabia yet if we really yet and the big question is going to be what happens in saudi arabia yet if we really get end up withdrawing from the middle east because if you're looking for a powder keg there is one well james on withdrawing from the middle east because if you're looking for a powder keg there's one well james i can tell you is that what happens in saudi arabia i can tell you right away i don't know what it will be but it won't be good can tell you is that what happens in saudi arabia i can tell you right away i don't

know what it will be but it won't be good ok that's for sure ok joshua you know it's been it's been already been brought up here ok that's for sure ok joshua you know it's been it's been already been brought up here now and i think it's important to discuss here i mean you're an expert in lebanon you lived there for many many years and i think it's important. discuss here i mean you're an expert on lebanon you lived there for many many years i mean on the one hand i do see the legitimate protests ok but i mean on the one hand i do see the legitimate protests ok but you know james in washington does bring up the issue of outside meddling and we've seen this in home you know james in washington does bring up the issue of outside meddling and we've seen this in hong kong and particularly how the media frames it so a tough question i suppose but and particularly how the media frames it so a tough question i suppose but you know how legitimate is it and how much outside influence you think is pos you know how legitimate is it and how much outside

influence you think is possibly there because there are people are saying sure roses in lebanon right now others are saying simply they are because there are people are saying sure roses in lebanon right now others are saying this is grassroots this is legitimate people are sick and tired of it how do you weigh those things this is grassroots this is legitimate people are sick and tired of it how do you weigh those things joshua i think this is legitimate and i think people are sick and tired. i think this is legitimate and i think people are sick and tired and part of the right way you can tell it is that it's not sectarian there are of course every part of the right way you can tell it is that it's not sectarian there are of course everybody is trying to spin it as a sectarian yet you know spin their sectarian view their body is trying to spin it as a sectarian yet you know spin their sectarian view and so you know a lot of the western press is is trying to highlight and so you know a lot of the western press is is trying to highlight the role is

a lioness in that there's criticism of his ball and it's the reason that the role is a lioness and that there's criticism of his ball and it's the reason that it's taking place is because hizbollah is to has gained such a predominant part and it's taking place is because hizbollah is to has gained such a predominant part in the government and so forth but you know i think the lebanese most people real up government and so forth but you know i think the lebanese most people realize that you know most people are just worried about where they're going to get enough money to live you know most people are just worried about where they're going to get enough money to live expenses has gone through the roof you know electric is irregular you can't get good internet expenses has gone through the roof you know electric is irregular you can't get good internet all the services that lebanese want whether it's picking up the garbage shirt jet all the services that lebanese want whether it's picking up the garbage shirt just keeping

the streets clean or not making sure people don't park on the sidewalk all those little is keeping the streets clean and not making sure people don't park on the sidewalk all those little insults that overwhelm you when you're in lebanon after a while i think of the insults that overwhelm you when you're in lebanon after a while i think of a piled up and that's why you're seeing people joining hands from one end of the country to the other aisles up and that's why. you're seeing people joining hands from one end of the country to the other it's symbolic and it's course it can be you know it can be twisted a little bit but either it's symbolic and it's course it can be you know it can be twisted a little bit but i think at heart the lebanese really want their government to spend think at heart that lebanese really want their government to spend some to solve some of these economic problems which have not been solved same question you patch ups to solve some of these economic problems which have not been solved same

question you patrick is you know how do you how do you put the scales there of you know people intentionally wanting to inflame it from trick is you know how do you how do you put the scales there of you know people intentionally wanting to inflame it from the outside and then these grassroots grievances that we were just numerated by joshua the outside and then these grassroots grievances that we were just numerated by joshua go ahead i think lebanon is actually a good example back to and i agree with go ahead i think lebanon is actually a good example back to and i agree with everything joshua said and i think it's clear this is a genuine it's very much resembles everything joshua said and i think it's clear this is a genuine it's very much resembles the occupy movement in the sense that the young people in lebanon regardless of their 2nd the occupy movement in the sense that the young people in lebanon regardless of their sect or their affiliations religious affiliations agree that there's an oligarchy and the problem or their affiliations religious affiliations agree that there's an oligarchy and the problem is in all of

gorky privileged in a hereditary class unfortunately it's also isn't all a gorky kind of privileged in a hereditary class unfortunately it's also a sectarian all of our key and that's a result of the confessional system that's been imposed a sectarian all of our key and that's a result of the confessional system that's been imposed on lebanon and we might see the end of that perhaps by the end of this to mulch just on lebanon and we might. i see the end of that perhaps by the end of this to mulch of this period but i think more than that there's this issue of the period but i think more than that there's this issue of the united states meddling you have to address the fact that during the cold war you know united states meddling you have to address the fact that during the cold war the number one priority of the u.s. was to thwart or to move out of power any number one priority of the u.s. was to thwart or to move out of power any left leaning government around the globe

and that was number one priority that was an essential left leaning government around the globe and that was number one priority that was in central america south america in the middle east including arab nationalist governmental america south america in the middle east including arab nationalist governments that were seen to be going in a socialist direction so. that we're seen to be going in a socialist direction so it's really disempowered a lot of countries over the years and i think the u.s. has won that cold really disempowered a lot of countries over the years and i think the u.s. has won that cold war it's one that imperialist war globally and it's now exported war it's one that imperialist war globally and it's now exported it's atomized and individualize societies to the point where i don't think they have that but it's atomized and individualize societies to the point where i don't think they have the

political direction or where with all our ability ideological ability to find out what little direction or where with all our ability ideological ability to find out what's better what's a better option than neoliberal economics it's people are better what's a better option than neoliberal economics it's people are pains to find the answer to that question right now and so it turns anarchic in to find the answer. to that question right now and so if it turns anarchic in and or kids or seems to be expressed more than a political organizing and real solution anarchism seems to be expressed more than political organizing and real solutions this is the problem that they're all facing right now many of them oh that's not a good message and this is the problem that they're all facing right now many of them oh that's not a good message at all is go back to washington here if we could bring up the case of iraq huge it all go back to washington here if we could bring up the case of

iraq here where you know the some of the troops that are withdrawn from syria american troops are being sent to or where you know the some of the troops that are withdrawn from syria american troops are being sent to iraq without the permission of the iraqi government and the whole issue of american troops iraq without the permission of the iraqi government and the whole issue of american troops in iraq or is hotly contested here how does that add to a lot of the pros in iraq or is hotly contested here how does that add to a lot of the protests because there's been a lot in iraq and a lot of people actually died go ahead james because there's been a lot in iraq and a lot of people actually died go ahead james. yes that's right and you raise the issue of people dying you know we've had people yes right and you raise the issue of people dying you know we've had people being killed in chile over what over over bus prices i mean it one of them being killed in chile over what over over bus

prices i mean it is one of the things i can't help but notice it again not only in the in the arab spring but also in the color revolution of the things i can't help but notice it again not only in the in the arab spring but also in the color revolutions is how the media covers the question of the use of force and is how the media covers the question of the use of force that i say well you know you see for example i remember in kiev in 2014 they were saying oh let us say what you know and you see for example i remember in kiev in 2014 they were saying oh look at the police beat up the demonstrators in a fact if you looked at the footage it was actually the demonstrators because the police beat up the demonstrators in a fact if you look at the footage it was actually the demonstrators beating up the police what's the what's what is the the ratio or beating up the police what's the what's what is the the ratio or the or the or the equities between what kind of force or restraint is being used by the authority or the or the equities between what kind of force or restraint is being used by the authorities on the one hand

and how militant violence are and even using deadly violence stories on the one hand and how militant violence are and even using deadly violence you're seeing sometimes from people in the crowds and you wonder look i'm not i'm not you're seeing sometimes from people in the crowds and you wonder look i'm not i'm not a believer in the whole marxist paradigm that you know once the once the oppressed masses really believe or in the whole marxist paradigm that you know once the once the oppressed masses reach a certain level of misery they rise up as one in rush of righteous indignation things dota certain level of misery they rise up as one and righteous righteous indignation things don't. it don't happen that way people don't behave that way and still has to be some kind of people don't happen that way people don't behave that way and still has to be some kind of there has to be some kind of a even if they don't have leaders in the way that joshua refers there has to be some kind of a even if they don't have leaders in the way that joshua refers there's somebody

somebody ends up organizing this somebody ends up taking the lead and there's somebody somebody ends up organizing this somebody ends up taking the lead and there's usually fairly small groups of people that sort of set the tone and there's usually fairly small groups of people that sort of set the tone and get other people involved and i get i guess i'm a bit of a cynic i would get other people involved and i get i guess i'm a bit of a cynic i i always wonder who is the hidden hand behind the scenes and of course this is also an actual wonder who keep hidden hand and that's behind the scenes as you know this is also and that bucky my observation that he moved there and by a by the american side you see there's a them there's a matter of the diplomat at saying that the problems in chile are being fed by who else by vladimir putin the russians are causing the problems in chile are being fed by who else by vladimir putin the russians are causing it so that's more russian

battling so i i don't know i always want to look at the last more russian battling so i i don't know i always want to look at the different layers of the onion here and see what all is going on all the way through the different layers different layers of the onion here and see what all is going on all the way through the different layers you know joshua you know blaming russia for everything is like going to the onion website you know joshua you know blaming russia for everything is like going to the onion website but anyway joshua you know you're you're a well renowned well known but anyway joshua you know you're you're a well renowned well known one hollywood. the middle east expert here how do you see western one highly respected middle east expert here how how do you see western media coverage of what's happening in the middle east with these protests here do they have media coverage of what's happening in the middle east with these protests here do they have do they have the right optic go ahead. you know i think they have

the right optic go ahead. you know i think the western media has gone through a real education over the last the western media has gone through a real education over the last 15 years trying to figure out the middle east and they really bought into 15 years trying to figure out the middle east and they really bought into. they bought into george bush's yep original argument too. they bought into george bush's original argument that that america could scrape off these governments and that that america could scrape off these governments and create democracy in the middle east i think today americans are much more and create democracy in the middle east i think today americans are much more

a bit more sophisticated and more cynical about what's going on in the middle east more a bit more sophisticated and more cynical about what's going on in the middle east or exhausted a yeah there are exhausted and they've spent you know precious or exhausted a. yeah there are exhausted and they've spent you know president trump is hitting that. very hard meat he keeps on reiterating we've spent some time trump is hitting not hitting that very hard meat he keeps on reiterating we've spent 7 trillion dollars i think he said a trillion the other day but we spent a lot of money and $7.00 trillion dollars i think he said a trillion the other day but we've spent a lot of money and americans haven't paid for that they've just put it on the credit card it's going to come due americans haven't paid for that they've just put it on the credit card it's going to come due and and i think there they are feeling exhausted they want to get out and and i think they're they are feeling exhausted

they want to get out they don't they realize that this is not a place that america can wave a wand and fix they don't they realize this is not a place that america can wave a wand and fix we're seeing this attempt to get out of afghanistan get out of syria we're seeing this attempt to get out of afghanistan get out of syria there are plenty of forces that are pulling us right back again and and america there are plenty of forces that are pulling us right back yeah and and americans don't want to abandon of course a position like afghanistan and just but they are don't want to abandon of course a position like afghanistan and just but they are realizing that this is a complicated region i think that we are going to see are realizing that this is a complicated region i think that we are going to see america withdraw a lot more because they are more cynical about these forces they really america withdraw a lot more because they are more cynical about these forces they realize there's

not an easy answer that underneath the surface of lang's there is not an easy answer that underneath the surface of language like we all want a better shake there are a lot of sectarian which like we all want. a better shake there are a lot of sectarian forces there are we actual force this and their ethnic forces that are not easy to can force is there are we actual forces and their ethnic forces that are not easy to contain and that can be very violent and destructive and and then america tain and that can be very violent and destructive and and that america can't manipulate them we've seen this with the kurds trying to side with the currents that dumping the can't manipulate them we've seen this with the kurds trying to side with the currents that dumping the kurds now is a sort of very crass grab for oil in syria with herds now of a sort of very crass grab for oil in syria which is which is i think to

a certain degree reflective of the exhaustion of which is i think to a certain degree reflective of the exhaustion of americans and now this this sort of money grab we're just going to go for the oil sattar rabia of americans and now this is sort of money grab we're just going to go for the oil sattar rabia grab the oil in syria it is it undermines grab the oil in syria it is it undermines. whatever principles america can bring to the table and it really shows that whatever principles america can bring to the table and it really shows an ugly face to the power in the middle east today ugly face to power in the middle east today that that. that doesn't have answers yeah but i mean. that that. that doesn't have answers yeah but i mean you're i will have

to end on that point here but you know the lack of principles stealing someone else's now to resort to end on that point here but you know the lack of principles stealing someone else's natural resources so they can't rebuild i mean i don't know how more pathetic back can be ok they can't rebuild i mean i don't know how more pathetic back can be ok but unfortunately it's not really portrayed that way in western media gentlemen that's all the time we have many but unfortunately it's not really portrayed that way in western media gentlemen that's all the time we have many thanks to my guests in washington plymouth and in norman and thanks to our viewers for watching us here and our thanks to my guests in washington plymouth and in norman and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember. see you next time and remember.

is you'll be. a reflection of reality. a reflection of reality. in the world. in the world transformed. what will make you feel safe transformed. what will make you feel safe. place and they should community. ties. a nation full community. are you going the right way or are you being led so where.

are you going the right way or are you being led to some. direction. what is true what is spray. directed. what is true what is faith. in a world corrupted you need to descend. in a world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the depths. to join us in the depths. aura made in the shallowness. made in the shallowness.

cooked additional not of what. cooked additional note of what was in etc to linger some of these it's just a blood you're looking as much as it gets up to linger some of these it's just a bullet you're looking is no no no. no no no. simply yes swim if you can call me. simple yes swim if you. look with a showing of the. last 2 and a chance. anything to look at with a showing of the bread with your. scotty's thing is lost when the shit. you think

of shit. if this keeps going to. vote a ticket shit will eat me up if this keeps going to. vote of shipping. it up and should she does the book bit the bullet yup and most of those who booked it to will work for the foreseeable still missing notes i do not want that for the foreseeable still missing notes i don't know what the move. was the move. was the latest news in the put us. boys in the place was in the put us. boys in the belief that the show yet of putting this was going to. move. the show yet of putting this was going to some. listeners through the summer in the story of the soul food.

the students are in the story of the soul food it doesn't. matter. how. their.

hello and welcome. hello and welcome to worlds apart and speaking truth or at least one class and things to power he's never easy of 2 worlds apart of speaking truth or at least one class and things to power he's never easy in russia with its fairly nascent civil culture and overly sensitive on it but in russia with its fairly nascent civil culture and overly sensitive and at times overly controlling officialdom that's a special challenge how to talk to times overly controlling officialdom that's a special challenge how to talk to the authorities so they will listen well to discuss that i'm now joined by you could see it in the ability authority so they will listen well to discuss that i'm now joined by you could see a political scientist and now a former member of russia's presidential council on human rights and civil cynical scientist and now a former member of russia's presidential council on human rights and civil society

if you could get in that's good to see you again thank you very much for coming thank you for the invitation you could get in that's good to see you again thank you very much for coming thank you for the invitation now many people. very disappointed by your departure from many people. very disappointed by your departure from the council on the human rights although apparently in the with yourself you're going to have a lot of the council on the human rights although apparently in the us yourself you're going to have a lot of sense of humor about that but before we discuss this let's establish the contact lot of sense of humor about that but before we discuss this let's establish the context because i know that for quite some time you've been arguing that the russian society is far freer because i know that for quite some time you've been arguing that the russian society is far freer and more mature than it's usually given credit for how and more mature than it's usually given. credit for how noteworthy was the summer of 200-9000 in manifesting this

noteworthy was the summer of 200-9000 in manifesting this sort of better than the given credit for nature of russia it's sort of better than the given credit for nature of russian civil society in the not just civil society but society in general well on one hand this is a society in the not just civil society but society in general well on one hand this is not the 1st definitely wave of protest and quite mass protests that we have witnessed is not the 1st definitely wave of protests and quite mass protests that we have witnessed starting 2007 team every year we have more or less mass starting 2007 team most every year we have more or less mask.