but there really not only to the kurds but to all. us our allies in the region as a whole. but honestly. there is a lack of clarity 1 and policy and a confused agenda i mean they're pulled back and then went back 1 again to protect the oil. still the situation is very unsettled. governed go and we and iraqi kurdistan. receiving refugees coming across the border zones of the turkish military incursion so far we have nearly $15000.00. who have crossed into northern iraq now mr zebari there's a lot of talk right now about the u.s. so-called betrayal of the kurds but there merican decision to rely more heavily on the kurdish military units in eastern syria grew out directly of what some see as

the american betrayal of the turks it's no secret that the obama administration actively sought to draw and correct into the syrian war only to abandon its later was it realistic for the kurds to expect that their merry can split have their backs for longer than it suited washington. american themselves u.s. leaders congressional leaders diploma it's cold this is an arbitrary no. this has created. mistrust. with the united states. mainly because of this. abundant and green lighting the turkish army to intervene. so far to. russia.

we are encouraging some kind of a dialogue between the. syrian regime for the syrian forces to come by russia patrols also in certain parts of the of the border but the situation in south. america i think they reconsider their position somehow they went back to. did a zoo or but the situation is very very and south of everybody's watching the upcoming visit of president or they're gone to see president trump to see what will come out of it i will definitely ask you more questions about that but before we go into there let me ask you one more question about the kurdish the syrian kurdish decision to align themselves more closely with the americans now you obviously come from iraq and formally speaking the iraqi kurds are

a separate entity but i'm pretty sure that you've been following the developments across the syrian border very closely do you know even what word the syrian kurds x. picked a chanst when they aligned themselves with the panther gone back in 2015 avoid the promised anything concrete no archer and nothing has been promised to them body. they must because government when. foreign minister love rule visited iraq on a visit to kurdistan ny met him in i b m. we asked him really to initiate some kind of dialogue between the mosque goes on that as if this was before that. because we believe they will have a better future we're trying to reach some accommodation of the region is also a lot of fighting much still it is acting or behaving in the old mentality of the

ba'ath regime unfortunately but the recently that has been some positive movements i think some interaction. of course we look forward to this me things that happen in suits in geneva the u.n. is trying to do to have a constitutional conference on for the kurds also to be represented that. they have legitimate rights and concerns with than. you see the new constitutional hopefully democratic syria mr zebari you've been talking about the lack of promises on the part of the demographic of government but my question was about what the americans promised or didn't promise to the kurds back in 2015 they are they are there just to protect them they have fallen. on the ground to fight the isis. these were the promises then when they pulled out all of

us out of the news so there could this reaction which was very angry on the also international reaction and american reaction by congress by the media by the think tank so all this pressure is i think convinced that mr asian to. consider the position. some forces may involve protecting the views not to fall into unsafe hound's that's part of the. reason i'm asking this question is because i covered the syrian war extensively from from the ground and in the 1st years of the conflict there was a tacit agreement between the assad government and the many kurdish communities in syria and not chad taki chad that there was a bit of a neutrality in the works and then the kurds decided to abandon that neutrality for

the sake of what we now see to be a very short sleeved alliance with the americans in hindsight do you think it was a mistake to for the courage to align themselves with the pentagon that dot time back in 2015 of the moment they were facing this existence will it by isis by. terrorism. what happened in many parts of the. bonding. with the constant through. the kurdish communities so they were looking for support or for. that assistance from other countries that. seized on the fortunate to step in to provide. logistical support for the. forces they formed. so really it was our current of.

convenience that spoke to the way. in order to fire their called an enemy but there could should not see them so. out of younes to be honest with you too far to be good fighters and so on the should have a political agenda. we are using all up influence to encourage them really to be part of the political process speaking about this political legend that the kurds in iraq where the main beneficiaries of the iraqi invasion your people managed to secure very good terms for for that tommy both politically and economically as far as you know were they similar assumptions assurances may be hold in the case of the syrian kurds going back to 2015 did they hold that this alliance with the americans would pave the way for larger autonomy and hopefully

maybe even independence. of independence is not on the table let's be very frank with you but some form of autonomy. regional council autonomy yes our experience differs with the syrian brothers are to move come a long way. in the kurdish struggle for freedom for recognition as it goes through. the foundation of the iraqi states from the twenty's onward but. honestly we secured a rise with the iraqi constitution earmarked for their own state and we have a federal entity or region where we are both to run out on affairs we have our own elected parliament of all and regional government we have the board the. regions the guard which is the pitch mario forces and also working very closely

with back that so our experience differed from them i think they i aspire they look forward to copy what we have achieved but the situation and see the journey graphically demographically is a little bit different somehow you just mentioned that the issue of independence is of the table. and yet nothing is permanent in the middle east and i think the iraqi kurds joe that message home for everybody 2 years ago when the masoud barzani left government held an independence referendum don't you think that data referendum despite it's non-binding nature in a way the how to bring the american pullout from syria about because it definitely made the turks far more perhaps if i'm perhaps far more persistent with the trumpet ministration in communicating its apprehensions yes really. went into different them to exercise our right of self-determination

1920172 years ago. it was an overwhelming successful process 92 percent voted for that but either. to the war that really the carrying out of that of her doesn't it does not mean automatically to establish an independent kurdish state but this is a message by the kurdish popular to the war that this is the desire of this world how that could be translated it should have been worked out with iraqi government and you have it is also in crimea. which also you call for the relation you see absolutely but we acted on the results of those referendums on like the kurdish people bad there is a big difference there no no i think we have those discussions with our russian

friends by the times the standard should be called to see the judges. this is. the right of self-determination of having a nation but the political situation differs definitely from different parts. we do have that a thought on them but also. we would resist the not all new by turkey by iran by the iraqi army. by the iraqis security forces who will try to reestablish that control but they failed because the people resist a they felt they haven't done something wrong by just express their views so i think we had on on a stronger footing with our people and also in iowa relations with back on me though i'm neighbors to ok well mr zebari we have to take a very short break now but we'll be back in just a few moments statement. it's

. just. a very warm welcome to you you're watching us and just.

your government and our government and all the other major governments of the world know what's going to happen and when it's going to. but they haven't told you and they haven't told me they haven't announced. imagine something as big as the earth is going to cause tidal waves earthquakes volcanoes are going to wrapped and it's going to chill. so very for a while right. my great grandfather's quote. nobody would care about the law or prison so you'd have wallace though should have. a turtle liason between now and.

welcome back to worlds apart because she has the body of a prominent iraqi kurdish politician and former foreign affairs minister of iraq mr zebari just before the break we were talking about the strategic process and cons of the kurdish alliance with the americans and you said that it was a marriage of convenience which is hard to deny because both sides needed each other to fight isis but what i'm struck by is this sheer gap in casualties the as d.f. is believed to have lost 11000 of its fighters while the americans in the same period recorded 5 called casualties while still maintaining that they are the ones who

defeated i says how do you take it. well it was very painful definitely i mean after all this losses i mean over 11000 people that have lost thousands of injured people hundreds of thousands of displaced people definitely knew it was it was very painful i mean to look back to the recent history with this. alliance was it was new and. it found of that a bit of taste to be honest with you with the kurds that our alliance with. allies is not reliable and i have abandoned us and they have abandoned their friends and the past also on many occasions but the united states is the. foobar power factor. that has interest here we have to be realistic really how to deal with this changing position. as i said

they have reconsidered why that position that back in the small of number but we hear from that diplomat. that there are still committed some how they would prevent through see a massive turkish incursion or invasion. of he has and one of our main concerns actually is ethnic cleansing in this kurdish areas or demographic changes this is extremely rewarding and we are also boarded up accidents of people from issue freight is from kurdish areas and seed into iraqi kurdistan as i gave you the example i checked today with the interior minister he confirmed that all the 15000 refugees have crossed into iraqi kurdistan

recently now i think. you don't have to agree with me but i think there is a definite tendency on the part of the united states to kind of short change the kurds and i think it was while demonstrated in the recent story with the killing of the isis leader abubakar but died because the americans claimed all of the credit and yet according to the as the af all intelligence had access to all but died as well as the identification of his location of his identity were the results of the kurds own work who are you more prone to believe in this case whose achievement is that reading the world of that horrible man well if the student questions yes they were hopeful archer's out that they're following the location of. the head of isis terrorist organization and also. have been helpful tool and the kurdistan region as well as the iraqi intelligence

organization have all collaborated some people believe i don't know how true or not of believe in the conspiracy theory but see some some do have been struck between. turkey. over this issue i'm in but on us they're often not believe in conspiracy theory but they were helpful instrumental in tracking or following the location of a bunker about yes when the obama administration managed to eliminate the some of bin ladin there where there was a lot of talk about decapitating al qaeda but it certainly didn't stop being a major security challenge with all baghdadi hopefully gone do you think i says we'll continue being a problem for your country and for your region as a whole no arse's threat the ideology of isis

is the invite. which led the isis to rise really is still available both here in iraq and we can sense it we can smell it and also in syria so the head of isis is the copy but the organization the ideology is still there just 2 days ago there was an explosion. near much more south of the guests on italian special forces unit which led to the injured are 5 of them this is the most recent incident and therefore. regrouping they have sleeping cells not on the here in iraq about in syria too so we have to deal with this problem actually for a long term it's not the media. as well it's been loved and was decapitated but

then was offered to so i think the certain logic applied to this terrorist organization which have a global. now one of the most pressing issues as far as isis is concerned right now is the refugee camps the security of refugee camps in syria some of them are being still being guarded by the kurdish units there are a lot of isis women and children there are some of them are many of them in fact are iraqi citizens and not many countries want to take them back how do you think these issues should be handled. well this is the whole come. really holds thousands of isis families and children that is why there are former members and some of the double nationality from european countries france of british german and saw.

through to receive. those looking after this comes but the danger actually if this god will be removed definitely and i will go back to that old tactics most of the iraq is not all of that. really within the iraqi government there are discussions and debates we should. they have this 5000000 years or this people or try those who have committed crimes. by iraqi laws so this discussion is not all go away but it is an embarrassment to everybody what to do with this sons of isis or their wives who are stark and come well it's not only the embarrassment it's also a major security challenge and president carried on of turkey when mentioned a couple of times during this conversation just earlier this week sad that turkey

is going to x. sure that those fighters regardless whether their home countries want them are not i think he already sent one of the former isis fighters to america to the united states there are 7 aves who will be sent to germany and perhaps other countries what do you think about this initiative do you think that's a way to handle the. news or compressive solution not by piece smell. some. cases i think this is a problem that not concerned cd. iraq are such but all those countries who. listen to fight isis and some of the other nationals have taken part and crimes and war crimes and definitely this should not be used as a bargaining chip. to the security of our people of our

countries. there has to be different solutions i think i mean to screen these people to suffer through those who are wanted. by the court in iraq or in cabo or whatever countries and the rest of the families should be rehabilitated in my view now you mentioned just a moment ago that these people are very dangerous people some of them should not be used as a bargaining chip in geopolitics and some accuse president are there on of doing exactly that because he's conditioning his relations with the european union on what turkey dies with and many of those rebels or many of those jihadi fighters as we are talking president are there on his visiting the united states do you have any concerns about what may result from that meeting because he already said that he wants to turn a new page with the trumpet ministration and develop

a new call peroration based on security do you have any concerns that he's pretty ation of security may come with insecurity or for your brother and across the border in syria. no definitely there are concerns on this the fate of this people should not be used as a bargaining chips against european and other countries that has to be there is a problem a security problems that needs to be dealt with collectively. and we have concern of this people are released. they will pose a threat on a danger to our security to the security of others but. so far according to my information i mean these people are still under the protection under god. they have not is the control of the scum. for

them all saw as not are good policy at the recount all we would release. this is also an acceptable i think we have to to engage other countries let's to deal with this issue collectively to find some last things so do sins not. convenient solutions or symbolic solutions to this major problem and how thick now we've talked a lot about the syrians and the iraqis and there's a lot of mutual grievances between these 2 countries the syrian government has been accused of providing safe haven for the iraqi insurgency and vice versa iraq has been accused of abetting the insurgency in syria now that to be our sort of back to square one do you think these 2 governments these 2 countries could come up with a more new chile accommodating and arrangement one that would focus on the security of their own people rather than the interests of foreign players. definitely have

an iraqi government relations with the syrian regime or government the. government gets. its scope in terms of security in terms of visits by security officials there is that many counters and so on the ground yes in the possibly suffer from all this jihad al qaida coming from different countries foreign countries through see the internal and that has been a problem between iraq and syria but no i think. there is a better understanding between the 2 countries because of the threat of isis because of the civil war and see. that this may spill over to across iraq already has suffered from. major protests these

days and back that in other. southern provinces and iraq. we all out of try to contain this peacefully and to seek solutions to respond to the demands of the demonstrators because the whole region is boiling to be honest with you while mr zebari we have to leave it there thank you very much for sharing your perspective but that's today most of us most of our viewers can keep this conversation going in our social media pages as for me and the team we hope to see you again same place same time one of the world's apart.

because my. point it's not that. i want. the west. the so-called individual. a strong. society and the freedom of. at least a little. college

student goes on a shooting rampage and rushes far east today killing one and injuring 3 others before taking his own life. also. supporters of the president clash with police to. see is under pressure to explain convincingly why it pulled an explosive story on convicted. stead the broadcast is apparently.