30 minutes will see them. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics or business i'm show business i'll see you then. come on welcome to worlds apart the kurdish strive for self-determination has long been a bargaining chip in the ferias geopolitical arrangements including the syrian war

they've been promised march and even more with the americans pulling out from the territories east of the euphrates river what does the future hold for the currents across the region well to discuss that i'm now joined by hoshyar zebari a prominent iraqi kurdish politician and former foreign affairs minister of iraq mr zebari so good to talk to you thank you very much for your time good talking to the 2 who are too old now you called the u.s. myth troll from syria quote painful and shameful why is that wasn't it the american presence in that country that fitted that description better well the u.s. . side of the not this isn't true this engaged its forces. who fold together. with.

cocksureness or understanding came as a shock a great disappointment to everybody really not only to the kurds but to all. us our allies in the region as a whole. but honestly. there is a lack of clarity 1 and policy and a confused agenda i mean they're pulled back and then went back 1 again to protect the oil. still the situation is very divided. government gone we in iraq. receiving refugees coming across the board as a result of the turkish military incursion so far we have nearly $15000.00. who have crossed into northern iraq now mr zebari there's a lot of talk right now about the u.s.

so-called betrayal of the kurds but their merican decision to rely more heavily on the kurdish military units in eastern syria grew out directly of what some see as the american betrayal of the turks it's no secret that the obama administration actively sought to draw and correct into the syrian war only to abandon its slavery was it realistic for the kurds to expect the dam mary can split have their backs for longer than it suited washington. american themselves u.s. leaders congressional leaders diplomats told the this is an arbitrary. this has created. a mistrust. with the united states. mainly because of this.

abundant. greenlighting the turkish army to intervene. so far through. russia. we are encouraging some kind of a dialogue between the. syrian regime for the syrian forces to come by russia patrols also in certain parts of the of the border but the situation in south. america i think they reconsider their position somehow they went back to. did a zoo or but the situation is very very and so out of everybody's watching the upcoming visit of president or do go on to see president trump to see what will come out of it i will definitely ask you more questions about that but before we go into there let me ask you one more question about the kurdish the syrian kurdish

decision to align themselves more closely with the americans now you obviously come from iraq and formally speaking the iraqi kurds are a separate entity but i'm pretty sure that you've been following the developments across the syrian border very closely do you know even what word the syrian kurds x. dictations when they aligned themselves with the panther gone back in 2015 of were they promised anything concrete no archer or nothing has been promised to them by the must because government when the. foreign minister of love rule visited iraq on a visit to kurdistan and i met him and i've been. really to initiate some kind of dialogue between the mosque goes on that as if this was before the incursion because we believe they will have a better future we're trying to reach some. accommodation of the region is also

a lot of voting much still it is acting or behaving in the old mentality of the baath regime unfortunately but the recently that has been some positive movements i think some interaction. of course we look forward to this me things that happen in suit geneva the un is trying to do to have a constitutional conference on for the kurds also to be represented that. they have legitimate rights and concerns with the. new see the new constitutional hopefully democratic syria mr zebari you've been talking about the lack of promises on the part of the demographic of government but my question was about what the americans promised or didn't promise to the kurds back in 2015

they are there just to protect them they have fallen. on the ground to fight the isis. these were the promises then when they pulled out all of us saw the news so there could this reaction which was voted angry young also international reaction and american reaction by congress by the media by the think so all this pressure as i think convinced that mr asian to reconsider the position . reset in some forces may involve protecting the views not to fall into unsafe hounds that's part of the way the reason i'm asking this question is because i covered the syrian war extensively from from the ground and in the 1st years of the conflict there was a tacit agreement between the assad government and the many kurdish communities in

syria and. tackett shot that there was. a bit of a neutrality in the works and then the kurds decided to abandon that neutrality for the sake of what we now see to be a very short sleeved alliance with the americans in hindsight do you think it was a mistake to for the courage to align themselves with the pentagon at the time back in 2015 of the moment they were facing this existence will it by isis by. terrorism. what happened in many parts of the. bonding. with the constant through. the kurdish communities so they were looking for support or for. that assistance from other countries that. seized on the fortunate to step

in to provide. logistical support for the. forces they formed. so really it was our current of. being as a support to the way. in order to follow their common enemy but there could should not see themselves. out of younes to be honest with you too far to be good fighters and so on the should have a political agenda. we are using all up influence to encourage them really to be part of the political process speaking about this political edge on the kurds in iraq where the main beneficiaries of the iraqi invasion your people managed to secure very good terms for for that tommy both politically and economically as far as you know were they similar assumptions assurances maybe hold in the case of the

. and kurds going back to 2015 did they hold that this alliance with the americans would pave the way for larger autonomy and hopefully maybe even independence. of independence is not on the table let's be very frank with you but some form of autonomy. regional council of autonomy yes our experience differs with syria brothers are to move come a long way. in the kurdish struggle for freedom for recognition as it goes through so through the foundation of the few states from the twenty's onward but. honestly we secured a rise with the iraqi constitution in iraq for their own state and we have a federal entity or region. to run out on affairs we have on the elected parliament of all and regional government we have the board the.

regions the guard which is the push various forces and also working very closely with. so our experience differed from them i think they are aspiring they look forward to copy what we have achieved but the situation and see the journey graphically demographically is a little bit different somehow you just mentioned that the issue of independence is of the table and yet nothing is permanent in the middle east and i think the iraqi kurds joe that message home for everybody 2 years ago when the masoud barzani level government held an independence referendum don't you think that that referendum despite its non-binding nature in a way the how to bring the american pullout from syria bowed because it definitely made the turks far more perhaps if i'm perhaps far more persistent with the. but

ministration in communicating its apprehensions yes we. went into different them to exercise our right of self-determination 1920172 years ago. and it was an overwhelming successful process 92 percent voted for that but either we declare to the war that really that cutting out of that or from them doesn't it does not mean automatically to establish an independent kurdish state but this is a message by the kurdish popular to the war that this is the desire this will how that could be translated it should have been worked out with iraqi government i mean you have ideas also in crimea. which also you call for self-determination and you see absolutely but we acted on the resolve of those

referendums and like the kurdish people bad there is a big difference there no no i think we have those discussions with our russian friends by the times the standard should be equal to see the judges. this is. have a right the right of self-determination and have a nation but the geopolitical situation differs definitely from different parts. we did have that effect on them but also we will resist the not only by turkey by iran by the iraqi army. by the iraqi security forces who tried to restart as that of control but they failed because the people resist they felt they haven't done something wrong just express their views so i think we are on on a stronger footing with our people and also in our relations with back. the middle

of nowhere still well mr zebari we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments statement. because . it's not going to be good that you see. what happens to the west. the so-called individual is always in this. strong belief. society and the freedom of the individual.

welcome back to worlds apart because she has the body of a prominent iraqi kurdish politician and former foreign affairs minister of iraq mr zebari just before the break we were talking about the strategic process and cons of the kurdish alliance with the americans and you said that it was a marriage of convenience which is hard to deny because both sides needed each other to fight isis but what i'm struck by is the sheer gap in casualties the as d.f. is believed to have lost 11000 of its fighters while the americans in the same period recorded its 5 call but casualties while still maintaining that they are the ones

who defeated i says how do you take it. well it was very painful definitely i mean after all this losses i mean over 11000 people that have lost thousands of injured people hundreds of thousands of displaced people definitely was it was very painful i mean to look back to the recent history with this. alliance was it was new and. it found a very bitter taste to be honest with you with the kurds that our alliance with. allies is not reliable and i have abandoned and they have abandoned their friends and the past also on many occasions but the united states is the. foobar power factor. it has interest here we have to be realistic really how to deal

with this changing position. as i said they have reconsidered their. position that back in the small of number but we hear from that diplomat. that there are still committed somehow and i would prevent through see a massive turkish incursion or invasion. of yes and one of our main concerns actually is ethnic cleansing in this kurdish areas or demographic changes this is extremely rewarding and we are also boarded up accidents of people from issue freight is from kurdish areas and seed into iraqi kurdistan as i give you the example i checked today even the interior minister he confirmed that all the 15000 refugees have crossed into iraqi kurdistan

recently now i think. you don't have to agree with me but i think there is a definite tendency on the part of the united states to kind of short change the currents and i think it was well demonstrated in the recent story with the killing of the isis later died because the americans claimed all of the credit and yet according to the as the f. all intelligence had access to all but died as well as the identification of his location of his identity were the results of the kurds own work who are you more prone to believe in this case whose achievement is that reading the world of that horrible man well if just to do the questions yes they were hopeful archer's out that the. location of. the head of isis is a terrorist organization and also. have been helpful tool and the

kurdistan region as well as the iraqi intelligence organization have all collaborated some people believe i don't know how true or not of believe in their conspiracy theory but see some some do have been struck between. turkey. over this issue. but on us they are not believe in conspiracy theory but they were helpful instrumental in tracking or following 'd the location of a bunker about yes when the obama administration managed to eliminate the some of bin lot and there were there was a lot of talk about decapitating al qaeda but it simply didn't stop being a major security challenge with all baghdadi hopefully gone do you think i says we'll continue being a problem for your country and for your region as a whole no arse's threat the ideology of isis

is the invite. rich led the isis to rise really is still available both here in iraq and we can sense it we can smell it and also in syria so the head of isis is the capital but the organization the ideology is still there just 2 days ago there was an explosion. near much more south of the guests on italian special forces unit which led to the injured are 5 of them this is the most recent incident and therefore they are regrouping they have sleeping cells not only here in iraq about in syria too so we have to deal with this problem actually for a long term it's not the media. as well it's been loved and was decapitated but it

still was oprah to so i think the certain logic applied to this terrorist organization which have a global. now one of the most pressing issues as far as isis is concerned right now is the refugee camps the security of refugee camps in syria some of them of being still being guarded by the kurdish units there are a lot of isis women and children there are some of them are many of them in fact are iraqi citizens and not many countries want to take them back how do you think these issues should be handled. this is the whole come which really holds thousands of isis families and children that is why there are former members and some of the double nationality from european countries french of british german and saw.

through to receive them. still looking after this comes but the danger actually if this god will be removed definitely and i will go back to that old tactics most of the iraq is not all of that. really within the iraqi government there are discussions and debates we should. they have this 5000000 years or this people or try those who have committed crimes. by iraqi laws so those discussions are ongoing but it is an embarrassment to everybody what to do with this sons of isis or their wives who are stark and come well it's not only the embarrassment it's also a major security challenge and present area don of turkey when mentioned

a couple of times during this conversation just earlier this week sad that turkey is going to x. sure that those fighters regardless whether their home countries want them or not i think he already sent one of the former isis fighters to america to the united states there are 7 aves who will be sent to germany and perhaps other countries what do you think about this initiative do you think that's the way to handle the issue really the news or compressive solution not by piece smell. some. cases i think this is a problem that not concerned c.d.o. to iraq are such but all those countries who. listen to fight isis and some of the nationals have taken part and crimes and war crimes and definitely this should not be used as bargaining chip they are a threat to the security of our people of our countries and there has to

be differences. loosens i think i mean through and screen these people through. those who are wanted. by the court in iraq or in. countries the rest of the truth. should be rehabilitated in my view now you mentioned just a moment ago that these people are very dangerous people some of them should not be used as a bargaining chip in geopolitics and some accuse president though on of doing exactly that because he's conditioning his relations with the european union on what turkey die as with many of those rebels or that many of those jihadi fighters as we are talking president are there on is visiting the united states do you have any concerns about what may result from that meeting because he already said that

he wants to turn a new page with the trumpet ministration and develop a new call peroration based on security do you have any concerns that he's in charge of security may come with insecurity or for your brother and across the border in syria. no definitely there are concerns on this the fate of this people should not be used as a bargaining chips against european and other countries that has to be there is a problem of security problems and needs to be dealt with collectively. and we have codes of this people are released. they will pose a threat on a danger to our security to the security of others but. so far according to my information i mean these people are still under the protection under god. they have not used the control of this car. for

them also is not our good policy at this recount all do we would release the. this is also not acceptable i think we have to to engage other countries let's to deal with this issue collectively to find some last things so do so and it's not. convenient solutions or symbolic solutions to this major problem and how thick now we've talked a lot about the syrians and the iraqis and there's a lot of mutual grievances between these 2 countries the syrian government has been accused of providing safe haven for the iraqi insurgency and vice versa iraq has been accused of abetting the insurgency in syria now that to be our sort of back to square one do you think these 2 governments these 2 countries could come up with a more new chile accommodating and arrangement one that would focus on the security

of their own people rather than the interests of foreign players. but definitely haven't the iraqi government relations with the syrian regime or government. government gets. its call for it in terms of security in terms of visits by security officials there is that count as him so on the ground yes in the post of his cell phone from all this jihad al qaida coming from different countries foreign countries through see them turn and that has been a problem between iraq and syria but no i think. there is a better understanding between the 2 countries because of the threat. because of the civil war and see. that this may spill over to

across iraq already has suffered from. major protests these days and back that in other. southern provinces and iraq. really all out of to try to contain this peacefully and to seek solutions to respond to the demands of the demonstrators because the whole region is boiling to be honest with you well mr zebari we have to leave it there thank you very much for sharing your perspective but that's today most of us most of our viewers can keep this conversation going in our social media pages as for me and the team we hope to see you again same place same time one of the world's apart.

what i suggest is a call the reverse hunger games then reverse order again or randomly pick $10.00 to $15.00 billionaires every year and strip them of everything get it down to 0 and course them out there and make it into the world of commerce and see if they can build it up scratch again introduce risk back into the american capital system once you have a certain amount of money there's no more risk you're just clipping coupons for finity and you have no stake in the game whatsoever. in a world of big. law and conspiracies it's time. to dig deeper to get the stories that make the stream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door. and shouting past

each other it's target for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks. and the final day of the brick summits in brazil ramps up the russian president stresses the organizations importance the bringing global stability and developing future markets among its. high school shooting in california leaves one person dead and 2 others finding for their lives police say they have the suspects in custody. and now that harrowing shooting takes place in a college in russia's far east needing one day didn't wounding 3 others the gunman then turned the gun on himself also in the program this hour.

supporters of bolivia the ousted president clashed with police.