coverage ations theoretically with russia and with china well you know. don't train that are more and more frets i mainly do was this confused but rather stable i mean in terms of france as far as i know and so you know russia and china are they are where the yacht i bade i don't fit in they are actually menacing and frightening made all more than they did befall so i don't see this raising of threats let's put it that way say you don't agree with nato secretary general against bolton even saying that he wants to nato to make space an operational domain enjoying the success of nature missions while you know it depends what you mean by that you know it is not today that he's agree with the secretary general is that i say that nato always always adapting you know it has been adapting since the end though to cold war you know and so it continues to adopt and of course it is true that the way to that kind of sadat is changing and china is rising and made less what up so the

secular now is writing his own times if you like. wouldn't peace has nato actually kept in its 70 years i mean right at the beginning there was the killing of 20 percent of the population of north korea by nature nations there was a cause vietnam 4000000 dead tens of millions have been killed or wounded or displaced because nato nations attacked iraq and nato ever helped peace whoa you know i don't think that you ask me the right question because. you're right in terms of the people who had that in those bloody walsall but i don't think that you can blame a toehold that you know as a matter of fact they had all of never been in vietnam. you know to play the dimension meter nationals is a different frame you know we are speaking about nato as an organization i made was what i got as actual as it is mainly a piece if you will remember history you know even the cold war was called the cold

war because there was peace of the old. no peace for a lot of the nations in the developing world arguably well then why do you think french president macro calls nato brain dead well i feel that he docile 1st of all because it will leave you no liquid world we're living in. a less structured wall that befall and i think that missy mccrone defines president is thinking about you know a new more popular for european defense dimension you know knowing that respect he things probably that nato should give wayne a name is in the subtle signs to a new european union or it is from the european union perhaps led by france in a way and you think that was being signaled by installed timber when he said the united states is going to cut funding for nato and that funding is going to be made up by johnson merkel of germany well you know now that is the discussion about if

american president you know his views about nato but you know in the end you know if you look at facts malden wanted to say here and there in various capitals i see nato are obvious table we're going to zation i don't know if you have any with me you know i don't think many things happen in a major by the way and as far as i know even in united states that have been recent polls and there is a large majority of populations supporting nato on in spite of all that so when nato member turkey. takes russian s. $400.00 missile defense systems and accuses. outside forces perhaps nato countries of backing elements in northern syria attacking turkey you think nato is still a stable organization well it depends how you put the question you know because the fact that turkey is acting it let's play in

a special way because i thought it in fact of buying the russian equipment is very unusual i think of the 1st time that the medal count it does it in seoul in such a way i don't think it is a very good thing to do on the other hand needle you know is an alliance you know is an alliance and it doesn't say exactly what every country has to do so we may disapprove of turkish foreign policy but i don't think that is for nato to tell the turks what they have to do i mean in specific terms when turkey threatens to send isis die as fighters to. the factor nato countries if if they don't respond in the way turkey once nato is still a strong alliance while you know but if you think about that in a different way i agree that it is a difficult situation and it is easy to criticize turkey for sithen actions towards the latter menses syria on the other hand if nato abandon. for this reason i

figured that it would add to instability in the middle east instead of adding to stability so if you look at times of you know all submitted in the area i think it's better to have turkey you cited their thought on an outside nato. you are acting secretary general if you were secretary general today what do you think your reaction would be to intelligence and to announcements from ankara that they were thinking of buying weapons systems from moscow well of course be the secretary general of nato i would not be happy about it this is clear you know normally or you don't by being if you are a nato country important they could have been from russia so this is something that you know i think is not. i would say a normal procedure to do only what i have is not illegal you know all of that would be much dave might do a way to address that in a call those world elements you know i don't know i was surprised as you are

surprised by everybody will survive by that decision and what do you make of the fact that beijing and moscow of course continue to claim that a promise was made to moscow that the collapse of the u.s.s.r. would mean no eastward expansion of nato and yet install timberg continues to talk about expansion eastwards well again you know this is a controversy which is going on since a long time in fact you know to do russians are saying that there was a promise by president bush if i'm not wrong say that data would not expand to the east there is nothing written about it by the way so 'd it's a story that you can't claim to be true or false and you know you have to trust the people who say that or you know to hand you know if you have if you have a country like paul other like above the country like hungary who want to be called

nato members how you'll forbid that i mean which grounds you know independent countries after something you know you have to accommodate them there has been a process of them that has been going on for some yes and those countries finally reached nato and to follow the fall if i'm not wrong i'm not sure unger he wants to join nato right now but a game a lot of countries around the world the international community as it were. they they may look at the install timber claiming that china is coming closer to us meaning to nature they may claim that that actually is a declaration of intent what do you think he means that china is coming closer to nato. are well sir you know this is of course very difficult for me to put myself into the shoes or mysterious cult of a ghetto i suppose or what he has in mind is that. probably

needs or should create its own idea about china sooner or later because china is such an important country that cannot be ignored and so in that way but this is on a speculation of course that they make in that way china's issues come to brussels not that we have to go to china i don't think the dentals going to china anyway yes because china says that it's in fact major nation bases particularly the nation of the united states that surrounding surrounding it again there does seem a lot of talk though about chinese intentions e.-n. stoltenberg also said we should be aware that china's investment in infrastructure development in africa could pose a threat he appeared to say what do you think it means whether it was what or who we are calling about a very how can i say i direct things you know the fact that china is president africa so far is mainly in peaceful ways you know it is something which is well

known so i don't think that nato as a direct interest into that looking back on it whilst some commentators are saying because macros that face. face the greatest problems when you were acting secretary general of nato just after the beginning of the us british war on iraq when the entire international community was criticizing britain and the united states for their actions in iraq. 2 important members of nato well you know at that time as you can recollect a nato had no direct role in iraq so it was through the united states and united kingdom attacking iraq of their perfectly true but nato as such as an organization was never involved in that neither the director nor i'm directly so you know to put nato as an aggressor of iraq i think is unfair but at the same time did members

that your meetings of nato when you were acting secretary general expressed concern obviously france did not support the invasion and war in iraq oh yes i mean in a sort of serious it is true there was a division in the alliance because they work on players who actually present in iraq with military forces beyond the united states and and u.k. so there were in fact. disputes and very how can i say very important discussions inside and off atlantic council but the decision has never changed at all have been to the syria not to be part of the war many kind of very clear ideas about it so if you're going to is actual unluckily if you like it i think is a good they're going to there to get good decision not to be part of the war in iraq. you didn't seem as concerned with the imminent threats from moscow and beijing is it the function of a secretary general then at

a nato meeting to claim that there are outside threats i mean we've had here in london the royal united services institute saying britain may need cluster bombs in case it goes to war with russia i told you earlier about un stoltenberg talking about china coming closer to the us is it just something a secretary general has to say to galvanize unity. a nato summit wow you know in a way you're right in a way i mean if secretary general has to galvanize a little bit his own organisation i mean this is you know goes everywhere i think for all got his actions and i am not an octave duty anymore so i cannot really read into that mr stoltenberg but of course i don't think that that is a major dancer today coming from military dangdut i mean calling from russia from china more than it was in the past but you know this is probably something that you say when you are in

a context where you are of an important meeting all member countries when you ask in fact i think member of congress to focus on the international environment former acting secretary general thank you after the break did nato collude with fascist eugenics programs in pursuit of victory in the so-called cold war we speak to the director of an award winning new film investigating international complicity in the fascist crimes against humanity of nato member spain over them all coming up about 2 and going underground. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then.

as labor has spent a mollusc in america and the average income for americans hasn't budged at all in 2030 years because they were neutered from their ability to compete for capital labor has no seat at the table labor has no seat at the central bank labor

has been abandoned the jobs have been shipped overseas and wall street now gets all the count they get 100 percent of the capital every dollar printed by the fed goes directly to wall street bypasses labor bypasses way to. welcome back this week the week of london's nato summit marks 82 years since the secretly nato nation backed bombing a bus alona by fascist leader general francisco franco his dictatorship would not only inspire and help catalyze world war 2 but lead to the killing of hundreds of thousands in his native spain a new documentary produced by oscar winning pedro almodovar about the legacy of franco including his eugenics program and his support from washington is now one spain's most prestigious film award it will be on u.k. channel b.b.c. 4 today and at its heart is an amnesty law nicknamed the pact of forgetting the film's co director robert joins me now from

a welcome do going on the ground waterloo mazing film it is it's already won the award it's a documentary film award in spain what is the pact or forgetting is featured in the silence of us thank you so much for having me the pact to for gathering is a pact that was formed at the end of spain's dictatorship so spain had dictator franco for 40 years after he died in 1977 an amnesty law was passed and that law not only helped political prisoners get out of jail who had been fighting for democracy but also included the clause that said political crimes committed by the state or. in the franco dictatorship would not be prosecuted and that became a bigger impact of forgetting where the crimes that took place during the franco dictatorship to this day have still not been investigated and the gospel has been that it's best that the past be forgotten now it's stunningly short but there are

some vox pops in it of young people in the capital for spain us to talk to it's not only the pact of forgetting in terms of the amnesty for those who committed crimes during the british american backed dictatorship of general franco it's an added inference on education itself when people young people in spain watching this film it may be the 1st time they're hearing of the crimes that were committed in their country many many people if their families were not in some way touched by the crimes that took place don't know or they think that this is the past this is something from 80 years ago and part of the purpose of the film was to show actually some of the suffering continues there's still families fighting to get more than 114000 bodies out of mass graves there are still people who were tortured as recently as 1975 who know where their torture is live and that torture has never

been prosecuted just to be clear that when spain became a democracy because as a member of nato they're meeting their people in london member of european union march in villa one of franco's cabinet ministers just easily transition into becoming the deputy prime minister in a post franco democratic spend and what you see there's a sequence in the film where we look at the transition and you see that in the judiciary in parts of government in the security forces there are many different continuity s. between dictatorship and democracy. see and if you think of this more generally in terms of transitional justice in countries where there's a revolution there's a complete change of government in the case of spain franco died while he was still in power and so his regime had of other of influence in shaping how democracy

would be found it now the journey for justice cortical in the filmography begins in the context of something that happened here the blair government was released general pinochet of chile the ridgeback the chilean dictator why seeking justice for all the 10s of thousands of people dead and the baby stolen in spain pinochet so this is the core principle called universal jurisdiction that says that if the crimes committed and if crimes were committed by a state and those crimes cannot be prosecuted in the place where they took place governments in other countries can prosecute them and ironically it was a spanish judge hearthstone who pioneered this principle and who indicted it across to a pinochet and that led to his detention for 500 days here in london. and because in spain even though they pioneered this work when arthur and tried to prosecute

crimes of the franco dictatorship he himself was put on trial the victims and human rights lawyers in spain have had to use the same principle and go to argentina and they found a judge in argentina who would take this case and so it's a parallel it's the same thing happening in this very moving testimony tell me about maria. who is one of the stars of the film as it were to who was who seeks justice before she she dies in the early days of the spanish civil war reemerge teen's mother was taken and was killed with a group of about 27 other people in a small town she was 6 years old and maria martine was 6 years old when this happened. and her mother's body was buried in a mass grave by the side of the road and her father dedicated his life to

trying to get her mother's body it's so and maria martine. took that responsibility and her entire life she wrote letters to the marriage she voted letters to courts she wrote to the king she wrote to everyone she could asking if there was a way that this road could be lifted and this mass grave could be opened. that camp. and now. it's been a life it was of life beyond struggle for her and now her own daughter continues that now it's not just the 10s of thousands of people tortured the 10s of thousands of bodies that lay today in the dairy spain the in unmarked graves. there

is the allegations of hundreds of thousands of children taken from their parents so mothers were told the children were yes dead yes on giving birth when they were they were given to fascist parents. and so going this goes back actually to nazi eugenic theory it's and so there was a spanish psych psychiatrist named antonio but i don't know her and he studied the nazi eugenics programs and published books and his work led to the creation of a law in 1941 that actually allowed babies to be taken from republican mothers at the time who were in jail and given to families that were loyal to the regime and what's believed to have happened is that all over the decades this practice evolved and moved from the politically unfit to the more of the unfit to families that may

have had true many children or single mother which itself could be seen as political in whichever could a seen as what this girl until the 980 s. so in the film we see the case of maria bueno who gave birth in la linea in the south of spain in 1981 and so the idea is and she sits powerfully in the film when the dictatorship stops those mechanisms don't just switch off and gathering all this evidence from all across spain for the tiniest villages to the cities that goes on you show different legal stages it gets to a stage where video conferencing in an argentinian court is all going to start but spain pressures the european union government. pressures the argentinian government not to hear the case judged her vinnie was able later to come to spain and take ted

so she traveled around spain and she was able to take testimony from victims and survivors she wants to take testimony from the people who. who is who has she a subpoena or indicted to give testimony some of the people who are the alleged perpetrators and she has not yet been able to do that. kind of game you got to show he's going to be on the board. on any moment as you know everybody putting out a lot of the real not a little. more you. will be clear in the film that aside from this 1st for justice of all these many people you show pictures of eisenhower of nixon the goal perhaps trying to explain to the viewer how it came to be that all these nato governments carried on supporting a government that was responsible for alleged eugenics and mass killing is an

important moment in the film and almost dana who made the film with me she and i felt strongly that the film needed that context and so if you look at the contents were really trying to communicate is that in the beginning of the film you see franco standing next to hitler and there was a moment when spain was viewed internationally with that association and as the years went by after world war 2 and sort of 20th century geopolitics switched to that cold war stance then spain became important in terms of its position and important as an ally and spain was welcomed into the united nations even now i think the world by perception when i'm in the united states i say to an older person what the film is about they say oh i travel to spain in the 1960 s. it didn't seem so bad to me. and then you show them the film and they hear chatter a story and they realize that while they were on a beach in spain on

a vacation chatter was in the basement of a building being tortured because of his political beliefs or because he was fighting for democracy because in this country known for galvanizing so much support for progressive causes in the thirty's but when you're talking about in the cold war you know that why is it now why the intelligence services here would have carried on supporting spain even if perhaps they knew of the torture and killing is that the domino theory they were just up communism. the reason for the vietnam war i can't speak to that specifically but i think if you look around the world i think there are so many dictatorships that were supported by the united states or by other powers and probably for those reasons because unlike say in the united states there probably isn't a big movement to wipe out more native americans or here there isn't a movement away but we're indians under the gun under the banner of winston churchill in in spain the frankie's does are there you interview some of them they

they follow logically support franco and are against the recent decision by the spanish government to exuma franco has bones from that huge monument to him in the cemetery in the film who well it's true that in the past year via a far right party with an ultra right party has risen in spain and i think as of now it actually is the 3rd number of seats in the congress and so you see those forces of the ultra right that still exist but i think a lot of the plaintiffs in the case in the film would say that even more than the ultra right it's the silence that was agreed to almost universally that is part of what has perpetual. they did this is something they can do is it it's really this indications well how many people are watching your film in spain as i

said that one won this award actually after winning the gold 2 months later public television in spain spanish public television showed the film and more than a 1000000 people saw this film it was a trending topic on twitter that day prime minister pedro sanchez actually tweeted saying that people should watch the film that night and so this actually a feeling that all the work that the movement has done for 20 years and a little grain of sand that the film or work of art can contribute to it continues and is making a difference and i was chatting to one of the characters in your film who still ugly doesn't get justice in this film because although his street is renamed his torture is still free chatter is torture is still free he has never been investigated there are many torturers from that time period who have never been investigated and that search for justice i think is is

a great challenge and chatto has really to the kid his life to continuing to fight for that. thank you and that's it for the show will be back on wednesday after the u.n. general assembly debates how to stand in the largest open air prison camp in the world gaza which of u.n. claims will be uninhabitable in a matter of months until don't you that's why social media don't forget to subscribe to going up against each. one else seemed wrong. wrong just don't call. me old yet to seep out these days can't answer. and in detroit equals betrayal. when something you find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground

. on hong kong protecting democracy or more meddling in the internal affairs of china also can members magine the alliance and more on the streets of london.

as conservative and labor parties accuse each other of failing to prevent the london bridge attackers early release from prison. membership of any terrorist organization a life imprisonment. would result but what do you mean. pressuring china strengthen that. natural gas pipeline to the power of siberia. us investigative journalism struggles to survive in the era of big corporate media and powerful political plans reporter claims hillary clinton cuts him off when.