inevitable development and one of the most prolific and. colorful politicians federalist politicians in europe. former a belgian prime minister give out hope he repeatedly called european integration a bicycle you cannot stall you should move along you should move forward otherwise you will. lose something and now we see that this movement is over now in your piece you suggest the e.u. will spend the next couple of years who knows exactly how many years focusing on its internal issues so it's rather a home improvement rather than a home expansion project and here in russia we have made any jokes about home repairs how arduous it is how it usually takes much more time money and skill than initially in the visit in case of the e.u. how big is a challenge it's around

a challenge is very big the challenge is very complicated and drugs have played a very interesting role in the whole debate on the one hand it demonstrated the european union has a big problem. the 1st country is about to leave. at the same time it demonstrated to all member states how terrible it is and how actually meaning meaningless it is to try to destroy the ties which have been established. centuries and. interestingly those skeptic forces in. france or belgium were ever. dropped the slogan of the mantling the european union and that was very. nice to do i think that for that formation will be very complicated by the end of the european

union will iran have to do and we will see a new another union we don't know yet which one that one somebody renovates their home it inevitably f.x. the neighbors you hear the sound you see the masses sometimes neighborly relations get sour and how do you think this round of ation is going to a fact the neighbors especially those who once hoped to move in with the e.u. . for sounds i think sounds. big. out. from the european union. euphoria and extension well we still are hearing accusations that it's russia that is ultimately on demining be sure. to hear it from the european union. likewise from the united states but the main thing which all of

us here in russia understand because we have same experience it's very tempting to blame anybody else your own fault. and in this concert in russia to do it but we see exactly the phenomenon in the west especially in the european union but i think it's it it to. a new stage because. for quite a long time the european x. was in the in a state of denial they tried to say that everything is ok there are there are some problems but mainly those are produced by outside forces now they finally concluded that shot something should be done in fact heard you make a very interesting point that for the 1st time since the collapse of the soviet union the countries between russia and the e.u.

seizing to be the prime geopolitical real estate sometimes inflated values that they're finally left to that own devices do you think that realisation has already started to sink in do you see any change in how those countries in between there are relating to both russia and the e.u. . it's sort of difficult process because for those so-called in-between countries i think is a terrible name by the way this has been their geopolitical. extremely discriminating. those countries most of them they got used to live in in in vironment went to perceive themselves as very juicy after office and from the beginning from 1090 s. it was consciously or unconsciously this willingness to play games between those who. russia against the e.u.

and russia gives the or maybe not. but the. entity has to get some benefits out of them. and we see the results unfortunately what happened in ukraine 5 years ago. and what does continue to happen now it's still a logic stand product of this is psychology of course this is a problem for both russia and the european union as well and i remember personally my multiple conversations with the european friends and american friends in 1900 specially into silence when i tried to explain to them that. soviet union lost the cold war and the former warsaw pact states where. it was inevitable that they would go to nato or to juge western alliance but don't touch ukraine because ukraine is something completely different for russia and. they never never

bought my arguments in that same article that aired referenced earlier reach was published in july you also predicted that from now on the ukraine will be encouraged to develop a less confrontational relationship and with russia and well you know next week the russian and the ukrainian presidents for the 1st time will meet in person under the watchful eyes of their french and german counterparts how significant is that. it is pretty significant because this is the 1st meeting in this so-called normandy 4 months since october 16th so it's quite quite a while and i personally have no doubts that the. president really wants to move forward he wants to he was elected because of public demand for peace and normalization with russia but this is a positive side negative side since july.

july when he was elected and then. rather the parliament was in place. he go it's enormous credit and he got enormous. he got a historic mandate mandate you sad that he's not been killed full and now off to use and my question to you is you know some people could argue that meeting with putin is already a pretty bold step for the ukrainian leader what else could he have done that he's not doing to move things forward you know meeting is rather or rather a gift from fortune to him because. you know he's facing a lot of political pressure from ukraine and extreme ride that not to do that i mean that there it he's also under pretty difficult political he's under extremely difficult political conditions and. she's struggling. opponents inside the

country and opponents outside the country and now he is obstinate that. position should be set to say bargaining chip in domestic infighting in the united states but i mean speaking about his own domestic politics what else could he have done to fulfill demanded this unique mandate that you mentioned i don't think he could do much. underline of don't boss in this process yet what he had to do and what he from my point of view so far failed to do to establish a war kink mechanism how to govern the country as we mentioned a couple of minutes ago she got the historic moment that no one before nor ukrainian president had such a strong support from both population and the parliament and then this in this regard if. a more skillful

a more experienced politician would be in his place maybe he would the chief more unfortunately zelinsky from my point of view is still in the position of playing the role of a president which he did before he became politician rather than to be a real president who is in charge of the country well mr o'keefe we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. to what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy confrontation let it be an arms race on all fronts very dramatic development only really. i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time to sit down

and talk. in this community there are people who believe that it's ok. it's really hard there are no jobs and you see their kids. and as a parent. i can come up with arguments there's a lot of conflict. in the game between the 2 most of the conflict i would say. close one on the children's clothes. is good because the state of california alone makes $6000000000.00 a year of prison complex just to get some $25.00 where. you don't care.

is your media a reflection of reality. in a world transformed. what will make you feel safe from. the isolation or community. are you going the right way or are you being led. direct. what is truth what is faith. in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the depths. or a maybe in the shallowness. in a world of big partisan movie lot and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever

we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth. welcome back to worlds apart be a further look at it or in chief off russia in global affairs magazine mr mccann i've just before the break we started talking about this december 9th meeting in france which just like the whole normandy format was designed to address specifically the conflict in eastern ukraine as. untangled as that issue is can it be tackled without reassessing at least in part the whole e.u. russia ukraine conundrum and by that i mean economic ties between russia and ukraine. publicly warm but privately cold and distant relationship between

ukraine and the e.u. the nature of the mutual commitments etc all these host of issues that precipitated the conflict in the 1st place. that's very difficult because on the one hand you write. whole ukrainian disaster. of product of a relationship between russia. and. the stage who are now. global. and say ok let's discuss. and then the university can just start with the e.u. for example could start with having an honest conversation about the ukraine and discuss whether ukraine will ever be part of the e.u. what ukraine is getting from the association agreement whether ukraine once you

have some sort of economic relationship with russia i mean we don't need to start big i mean those are issues that directly affect the lives of everyday people. would be great unfortunately in this particular case i'm afraid that no one. those involved. wants to be 100 percent. honest that that was the. from the beginning it was based on very sort of. lie from all sides and to start with this. chance to undermine everything why. very formal. described in the documents because this is a way to. formalize steps which should be done and to

start to. drive to go. particularly. in the future at the same time for ukraine. agreement. was an agreement to stop war it was a very big war which ukraine was about to lose and they signed this agreement which from. that's argument that they don't have to fulfill it because it was signed under duress. argument not to fulfill them and president poroshenko. and. ukraine have no choice but that was a product of very complicated circumstances now on the one hand sometimes it looks like a deadlock in the same time why all sides stick to that there is no other framework to go if. agreement form then nothing else is left

and that risk for a new war will be quite high now the russian ukrainian relationship has 2. major components economic and security i want to start with economic and i'm sure you would agree with me that in addition to solving the conflict in this to me ukraine russia and ukraine now has a much more accurate. dispute to settle i'm talking about the expiration of the gas transit contract they had the contract for transiting russian gas to the european union and what i find historically ironic that ukraine now after arguing for you. here is that russia is using gas as a geopolitical of weapon against it it is now insisting on the long term called contract with moscow which moscow is trying to evade do you think the 2 will be able to meet each other halfway yes i think so. fortunately or

unfortunately. so we have trouble with ukraine on the gas field since. 2910 years ago it was a. disruption of supplies to the european union. which is expiring now was signed the moment. i'm right there will sign it because they know after. will be. launched. a russian position will be much much stronger and ukraine will be not in the position to dictate now i don't know if you would agree with that but i think one silver lining in this genuinely awful russian ukrainian relationship is that the crayons over the last $44.00 or 5 years have stopped taking russia and the economic benefits that they derive from being graphically close to russia for

granted and we have to discuss that flipping over the. gas transit contract is one indication of that is there any chance that these economic promises and this whole conflict erupted into what it is today from the economic promises the promises that are alive is it possible that the relationship could ultimately be patched up by the economic considerations as well that the ukrainians will see the pragmatism of having some sort of a very relationship with russia or do you think we have long been pals that i'm rather skeptical. of course we see how strong ties are and where because after 5 years of mutual rejection of a very very clear and. aggressive.

government to cut all ties to russia economic ties with russia. does matter. consequences didn't matter and russia of course russia. suffered a lot from disruption of economic relationship but this by that we see that trade is growing so extremely strong nature a lot of go relationships and the same time you know for a very long. i cannot imagine any russian government to. a launch pad over konami at the time. that you wrote recently that russia is now entering into the real post imperial stage in which it can finally a rest assured that ukraine georgia moldova i will not be part of the e.u. and nato for the foreseeable future if the kremlin is indeed as sure of that as

you believe why it is sticking to its guns and by that i mean insisting very have only on the autonomy of donetsk and lugansk as as a guarantee you that that's not going to happen. ukraine is a very special case it was from the beginning. there is no other territory no other country which would be that there are 2 russian minds and hearts as ukraine for a minute just about minds and hearts or is it ultimately about security and security is perception as well if you perceive. certain territory. highly vitally important for you then of course you extrapolate from that also security fears and ukraine. is right but this is a fact of alive what we tried to explain. why do you think there is

the there is still this insistence on the former path is it just the then the willingness to recognize your own mistakes because if for example i v e r i nato would tell russia in some formal matter that this is not going to happen that would solve a lot of issues connected to ukraine i mean it's understandable how difficult it is for president but you know nato and the e.u. could do part of the difficult job for him no they will never see. the russia but. because it's. our. alliances for blocs based on certain political values and perceptions the idea that any country has the right to choose alliances was one of the

fundamental i mean look what happened with this idea in the case of albany and north donny rich even changed i mean the like you know a hypo course is another pillar of political action in the west. in. the sad story by by. or you should to me the criteria that will continue indefinitely the same with ukraine at the same time no one ever . for almost a ukraine membership especially in the e.u. the only statement i can remember that was made by mr younker the former head of european commission a couple of years ago when he said that for next. to 5 years ukraine cannot expect to join the european union for at least 25 years so in this regard what ukrainians created for themselves is imagination and there's the problem i want to ask you

about made today alliance is celebrating 70th anniversary this week and i think it's fair to say that just like in case with the e.u. it is going through a period of understanding what it is what it stands for what its future is there are lots of internal disagreements there we just witnessed very interesting interaction between in fresno across on and president trying but the formal alliance the official line remains the same russia is the existential threat do you think any amount of internal disagreements can do that. because. in this way they have not just stayed but this stake cannot leave. portugal turkey and what. have. their

security about threats to them no one they have completely different context and situations and in this. in the autumn and to keep the airlines at least formally going you need something which. all members. to point out he was russia wrong to take crimea yes. russia is a. and that's. i heard you say even before that this means russia's threat is very convenient very expedia and a both to the e.u. and to nato for catalyzing and reframing are internal disagreements and. you know i think it's also ironic that they would find that own internal problems more threatening the last possible to me down the russia thread to some extent russia's threat is much less threatening but i also heard you say that at this point the

e.u. actually needs russia. to increase its room from when you were with the united states possibly for many other issues as well don't you think that sooner or later these nests acetate for cooperation with russia will prevail. but again i'm not very much optimistic the only person in inside the european union who has a vision which is not strong but vision is present. and he understands that. because he he believes that france needs a relationship with russia to strengthen its positions in the united. states. but at the same time any 2nd european politicians start to discuss to. realize how we get they are themselves. and

unfortunately. for russia they are afraid of russia so much that the me that is stop the sinkhole to keep ties with the united states are the same time the more this. we could have also discussed what is really the united states because for all their disagreements both present the chronon president. critical of nato and both on the way open to developing a relationship with russia but mr know we have to leave it for some other time because our time is up thank you very much for coming. i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages as for me and the team. same place same time on worlds apart.

join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. some of. the men of the. book. you talk to home doping can russia think was over for get it. through your. ability for the international competition says that stake interesting close events

like the tokyo olympics. and the fee for world cup in qatar if i am in the early as last. year when you come in you know just as it was 4 years ago in moscow anti-doping plavix at the center of the scandal so huge tampering with the doping samples database and one does greegor you want you could have to do with it and you know she's stupid because we've got to pull simeon you know. he's a push on the we should you wish to play to expose me in motion to actually go to the pollution a genius and. all that yet the euro the dollar they all refer to each other and they're all going deeper and deeper into debt so there's no basic there or there there's no so there's no way to measure the dead against something that is could be considered money remember j.p. morgan said only gold is money everything else is credit or debt ok so without that

there is no way to measure that debt and there's no at the moment you know my my view is that this is leading to a neo feudalism poor you have just a few private equity firms owing 98 percent of all the assets and everyone else is living as serfs on that we're getting back to the dark ages. of this new law.

lisa. france is crippled by a nationwide strike over pension reform plans with protests in the capital descending into violence. the russian foreign minister rejects germany's claims that moscow's not been cooperating with an investigation into the murder of a georgian citizen in berlin this summer. faces fresh censorship accusations off the changes to its terms of service leads to fears of shadow banning. from moscow.