hello and welcome to worlds apart just as the canadians or the chileans have a long drive to the united states appropriating the words a married couple american for itself so to have the russians about the european union calling itself and only europe or european as the e.u. like the last coms to what it is and what it stands for what does it mean for those sharing the continent pretty well to discuss that i'm now joined by federal of ghana editor in chief of russian global affairs magazine it's good to talk to you again thank you very much for coming over thank you now earlier this year you published a very interesting article in one german magazine on the future of european integration and what's interesting about that article is that while the content was the same it had to carry different titles in russian and in english in russian it was the house construction is finished meaning the e.u. enlargement is over whereas in english it was something about the new dawn in the

e.u. russia relations others 2 things indeed related. course . the relationship between russia and the european union and it's interesting to remember that the russian federation. incarnational russia and the european union is a contemporary incarnation of european integration were born. it was emerged on the wall stage in late december. and european union formally was established. so we are. of course. very long tradition the russians or this need have been integration the relations on. what will happen inside the european

union. and we need to know what kind of transformation. before we or we can speculate what kind of relationship we can build between russia and when you talk about a new dawn which is you know it carries a positive meaning i think you're somewhat suggesting that the whole to the e.u. enlargement actually preserve a chance for improving this relationship whereas the continuous expansion i would presume would have. jeopardize this relationship even more. yes it would. even more in. extension or the logic. is officially called in the european union would continue i doubt because i think the era of. growth of the european union is over we see the 1st ever example of

a country. leaving the european union the whole atmosphere is completely different than we remember from 100924 early this century when extension of the european union was seen as an absolutely. development inevitable development and one of the most prolific and. colorful politicians federalist politicians in europe. former a belgian prime minister give a host he repeatedly called european integration a bicycle you cannot stall you should move on you should move forward otherwise you will you will lose something and now we see that this movement is over now in your piece you suggest that the e.u. will spend the next couple of years who knows exactly how many years focusing on

its internal issues so it's rather a home improvement rather than the home expansion project and here in russia we have made any jokes about home repairs how arduous it is how it usually takes much more time money and skill than initially in the visit in case of the e.u. how big is a challenge it's a challenge is very big the challenge is very complicated and drugs have played a very interesting role in the whole debate on the one hand it demonstrated your opinion. it has a big problem. the 1st country is about to leave. at the same time demonstrated to all member states how terrible it is and how actually meaning slightly meaningless it is to try to destroy the times which have been established . centuries and. interestingly

those skeptic forces in. the or france or belgium where ever they dropped the slogan of this mantling the european union and that was very fair and to do i think that for that transformation will be very complicated by the end of the european union will iran have to do new quality and we will see a new another union we don't know yet which one now when somebody renovate their home it inevitably f.x. the neighbors you hear the sound you see the masses sometimes neighborly relations get sour and how do you think this round of ation is going to a fag the neighbors especially those who once hoped to move in with the e.u. . as for songs i think sounds the contrary it

might become less vocal and less out. from the european union at the peak of its euphoria and expansion well we still are hearing accusations that it's russia that is ultimately on demining to be sure. to hear it from the european union. likewise from the united states but the main thing which all of us here in russia understand because we have same experience it's very tempting to blame anybody else on your own fault and in this concert in the rush to do it but we see exactly this phenomenon in the west especially in the european union but i think it's it's it it to move over it's a new stage because. for quite a long time the european next month was in the in the state of denial they tried to

say that everything is ok there are there are some problems but mainly those are produced by outside forces now they finally concluded that shot something should be done in fact heard you make a very interesting point that for the 1st time since the collapse of the soviet union the countries between russia and the e.u. seizing 2 b.b.c. prime geopolitical real estate sometimes inflated values that there finally a left to their own devices do you think that realisation has already started to sink in do you see any change in how those countries in between there are relating to both russia and the e.u. . it's sort of difficult process because for those so-called in-between countries i think is a terrible name by the way their lives has been their geopolitical yeah it's extremely discriminate. those countries most of them

they got used to live in in in vironment went to perceive themselves as very juicy after office and from the beginning from 9 to 90 s. it was consciously or unconsciously this willingness to play games between those who. are who are fighting russia against the e.u. russia is the or maybe not. but the. entity is to get some benefits out of them. and we see the results unfortunately what happened in ukraine 5 years ago and we're just continue to happen now it's still a logic stand product of this there's psychology of course this is a problem for both russia and the european union as well and i remember personally my multiple conversations with the european friends and american friends in 1900 specially into silence when i tried to explain to them that. soviet

union lost the cold war and the former warsaw pact states where. it was inevitable that they would go to nato or to juge western alliance but don't touch ukraine because ukraine is something completely different for russia and. they never never bought my arguments in that same article that aired referenced earlier which was published in july you also predicted that from now on the ukraine will be encouraged to develop a less confrontational relationship and with russia and well you know next week the russian and the ukrainian presidents for the 1st time will meet in person under the watchful eyes of that french and yeoman counterparts how significant is that. it's pretty significant because this is the 1st meeting in this so-called normandy 4 months since october 16th so quite the while

and i personally have no doubts the. president really wants to move forward he wants to he was elected because of public demand for peace and normalization with russia but this is a positive side negative side since july. july when he was elected and then. rather the parliament was in place. he go it's enormous credit and he got enormous. he got a historic mandate. sad that he has not been skillful enough to use and my question to you is you know some people could argue that meeting with putin is already a pretty bold step for the ukrainian leader what else could he have done that he's not doing to move things forward you know meeting is rather or rather

a gift from fortune to him because. you know he's facing a lot of political pressure from ukraine and extreme ride that not to do that i mean that there he's also under pretty difficult political he's under extremely difficult political conditions and. she's struggling. opponents inside the country and opponents outside the country and now he is in the absolute that. position to be to say bargaining chip in domestic infighting in the united states but i mean speaking about his own domestic politics what else could he have done to fulfill demanded this unique mandate that you mentioned i don't think he could do much. on the line of don't boss in this music process yet what he had to do and what he from my point of view so far failed to do to establish

a war kink mechanism how to govern the country as you mentioned a couple of minutes ago she got the historic mandate no one before nor ukrainian president had such a strong support from both population and the parliament and then this in this regards if. a more skillful a more experienced politician would be in his place maybe he will be chief more unfortunately zelinsky from my point of view is still in the position of playing the role of a president which he did before he became politician rather than to be a real president who is in charge of the country well we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments statement. on. my phone with this world so confusing. and there's

a certain generation that's controlling all the politics around the world. generation. and children. materialistic don't really care about these things concrete even more automobiles want to. chop want to ride a bicycle this movement is global and it's going the world class to go in this direction and it's going to change.

welcome back to worlds apart to be a further look piano fanatic turn in chief of russia in global affairs magazine mr mccann i've just before the break we started talking about this december 9th meeting in france which just like the hall normandy format was designed to address specifically the conflict in a certain ukraine as entangled as that issue is can it be tackled without reassessing at least in part of this whole e.u.

russia ukraine command drome and by that i mean economic ties between russia and ukraine. publicly a warm but privately cold and distant relationship between ukraine and the e.u. the nature of the mutual commitments etc all these host of issues that precipitated the conflict in the 1st place. that's very difficult because on the one hand you write the whole ukrainian disaster. was a product of the relationship between russia and ukraine ukraine the us on the same time. on the stage who are now. you cannot start with the global big and say ok let's discuss. and then the university can just start with the e.u. for example could start with having an honest conversation about the ukraine and

discuss whether ukraine will ever be part of the e.u. what ukraine is getting from the association agreement whether ukraine once you have some sort of economic relationship with russia i mean we don't need to start big i mean those are issues that directly a fact lives of everyday people yeah you know it would be great unfortunately in this particular case i'm afraid that no one. those involved. wants to be 100 percent. open and honest that that was the nature of this conflict from the beginning it was based on them very sort of to say. from all sides and to start with this. chance to undermine everything why russia is so. insisting on a very formal past. described in the minsk

documents because this is a way to. formalize steps which should be done and to start to. take particular can lead to a much bigger solution in the future at the same time for ukraine. agreement 15 was an agreement to stop war it was a very big war which ukraine was about to lose and they signed this agreement which from. that's argument that they don't have to fulfill it because it was signed under duress but no no it's not an argument not to fulfill them and president poroshenko he signed and. ukraine had no choice but that was a product of very complicated circumstances now on the one hand sometimes

it looks like there like a deadlock in the same time why all side stick to that there is no other framework to go if. agreement for months then nothing else is left and than the risk for a new war it will be quite time now the russian ukrainian relationship has 2. major components economic and security i want to start with economic and i am sure you would agree with me that. in addition to solving the conflict in this to me ukraine russia and ukraine now has a much more accurate. dispute to settle i'm talking about the expiration of the gas transit contract the contract for transiting russian gas to the european union and what i find historically ironic that ukraine now after arguing for years that russia is using gas as a geopolitical of weapon against it it is now insisting on the long term called contract with moscow which moscow is trying to evade do you think the 2 will be

able to meet each other halfway yes i think so. fortunately or unfortunately. so we have trouble with. the gas field since. 2910 years ago it was a. disruption of supplies to the european union. contract which is expiring now was signed at the moment. but they will sign it because they know after. will be. launched. russian position will be much much stronger and ukraine will be not in the position to dictate now i don't know if you would agree with that but i think one silver lining in this genuinely awful russian ukrainian relationship is that the cranes

have over the last 4 or 4 or 5 years have stopped taking russia the economic benefits that they derive from being graphically close to russia for granted and they. disguise that flipping the. gas transit contract is one indication of that is there any chance that these economic promises and this whole conflict erupted into what it is today. from these economic promises the promises that are alive is it possible that their relationship could ultimately be patched up by the economic considerations as well that the ukrainians will see the pragmatism of having some sort of a very relationship with russia or do you think we have long been pals that i'm rather skeptical of course we see how strong ties are and where because after 5 years of mutual rejection of

a very very clear and. aggressive of ukrainian government to cut all ties to russia economically with russia. doesn't doesn't matter. consequences didn't matter and russia of course russia. suffered a lot from this rupture north. relationship but this by that we see that trade is growing so extremely strong nature a lot of go. and the same time you know for a very long for sure i cannot imagine any russian government to. a launch pad over konami at the time. that you wrote recently that russia is now entering into the real post imperial stage in which it

can finally a rest assured that ukraine georgia moldova i will not be part of the e.u. and nato for the foreseeable future if the kremlin is indeed as sure of that as you believe why it is sticking to its guns and by that i mean insisting very have early on the autonomy of donetsk and lugansk as a guarantee you that that's not going to have. and. ukraine is a very special case it was from the beginning. there is no other territory no other country which would be that there are 2 russian minds and hearts as ukraine for many. minds and hearts or is it ultimately about security and security is perception as well if you perceive certain territory as being highly vitally important for you then of course you extrapolate from that also security

fears and ukraine in that you might say russia is crazy you might say russia is right but this is a fact of alive what we tried to explain to our west. why do you think there is the there is still this insistence on the former path is it just the then the willingness to recognize your own mistakes because if for example i v e r i nato would tell russia in some formal matter that this is not going to happen that would solve a lot of issues connected to ukraine i mean it's understandable how difficult it is for president does have an skee but you know nato and the e.u. could do part of the difficult job for him no there will never see in the sink else to russia but. because it's. our. alliance is sort of blocks based on certain political values and perceptions. the

idea that any country has the right to choose alliances was one of the fundamental i mean look what happened with this idea. that donny rich even changed it i mean like you know a hypo chorus is another pillar of political action in the west. in. the sad story by by. or you should criterion a song that will continue indefinitely the same with ukraine at the same time no one ever. membership especially in the e.u. the only statement i can remember was made by. a former head of european commission a couple of years ago when he said that for next. to 5 years ukraine cannot expect

to join the european union. so in this regard what ukrainians. for themselves. i want to ask you about made today alliance is celebrating 70th anniversary this week and i think it's fair to say that just like in case with the e.u. it is going through a period of understanding what it is what it stands for what its future is lots of internal disagreements we just witnessed very interesting interaction between in fresno across on and president trying their formal alliance the official line remains the same russia is the existential threat do you think any amount of. internal disagreements can undo that. because. they have not just stayed but this stake cannot leave

portugal turkey and. greece. to have any common. security about threats to no one they have a completely different context and situation and in this. in the autumn and to keep at least formally going you need something which all member states to reject it was a point where he was russia wrong to take crimea yes ok let's assume that russia is a. and that's. i heard you say even before that this memo of russia's threat is very convenient very expedia and a both to the e.u. and to nato for catalyzing and reframing our internal disagreements and. you know i think it's also ironic that they would find that own internal problems more

threatening last possible to meet down the russia threat to some extent russia's threat is much less threatening but i also heard you say that at this point the e.u. actually needs russia. to increase its room from when you were with the united states possibly for many other issues as well don't you think that sooner or later these nests acetate for cooperation with russia will prevail. but again i'm not very much optimistic the only person in inside the european union who has a vision which is not strong but but some vision is present michel. and he understands that. because he he believes that france needs a relationship with russia to strengthen its positions in the unite in the european union and his over the united states. but at the same time any 2nd

european politicians start to discuss their teacher taught them in the immediately realize how we get they are themselves. and unfortunately. for russia they are afraid of russia so much that the media. keep ties with the united states either the same time the more this. week would have also discussed what is really the united states because for all their disagreements. on president trump. critical of nato and. the way open to developing a relationship with russia but mr know to leave it for some other time because our time is up thank you very much for coming. i encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages as for me and the team. same place same time on worlds apart. all.

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