in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the death. or inmate in the shallows. come on of welcome to worlds apart it's a defensive alliance destroyed several countries a union of the like minded to come to agree on what the main threats are and then the b. to me off military mindset to be both in great shape and brain at the same time as

neda celebrates its 70th anniversary isn't it finally time to think it's not about retirement done at least a change of course to discuss that i'm now joined by yusuf political analyst for turkey state run broadcaster tara tara world is to everyman's good to talk to you thank you very much for your time thank you now turkey has been a member of nato since 9 to 52 year it's the 2nd largest military in deadlines it's taken part in many of its operations including the one in libya which triggered the largest migration crisis of did take it with a profound effect on turkey and south as nato celebrates its anniversary is it more of a reason for celebration or perhaps contemplation in turkey. well i definitely think it's a time for contemplation because nato right now is lacking a strategic vision many of the allies inside nato right now have very did

different threat perceptions inside of their own domestic national security apparatus and when they don't comes together as the 29 members it has a problem agreeing on who the threat is now we saw the french president mccrum the couple days ago before the nato summit called nato braindead he wasn't exactly correct nato still has value but nato definitely needs to be diagnosed i like to call nato's problem a midlife crisis at 17 years old it's still thinks it's 40 years old and it's still things the enemies the soviet union when there is no soviet union there is no communist china and there are much more imminent threats right now in the globe non-state actors terrorist organizations i agree with you there are lots of disagreements internal disagreements within their lines and yet at the same time to turkish officials continue extolling the value of neda and how substantial turkey's

role within the to has been if we look specifically at the last 3 decades what did carry key gad out of nato for all its contributions frankly i over the last 3 decades i don't think turkey has gotten much out of nato besides a couple air bases inside the country at times the limited deployment of some air defenses turkey hasn't got much but when you look at what turkey has given nato whether it be supporting the afghanistan operation whether it be supporting kosovo or bosnia and when you look at the turkish military nato 2nd largest army you see a army with a very high operational capacity and a heavy experience when it comes to hot conflicts. geopolitically turkey is the long arm of nato that extends deep into these hot conflict zones and gives need to a border where it can operate militarily in these areas very very comfortably but

what is turkey gotten out of it we're seeing that turkey has been isolated right now especially in syria when it has a serious national security threat most namely the presence of the syrian army of the u.s. designated designated terror organization the p k k i'm talking about the y. p.g. there syrian army turkey has repeatedly make calls to nato to recognize this group as a terror organization they've made calls for support they've also asked for support regarding a safe zone in northeast syria and turkey has been left all by itself on this matter and frankly the turks and the administration feel very very betrayed by their u.s. allies and nato allies if it's given so much it's if it's receiving so little what's the point of still being a member of this organization that is pretty costly and that is targeting one of the countries that turkey considers so its partner which is russia they go still

does have many values it is a 29 member alliance it's a huge insurance policy for turkey an insurance policy against want or against whom well that remains to be seen you don't know when you're going to need insurance that's why it's called insuring i mean the you you need insurance right now you just said that terrorism is a major security threat for turkey i mean you're dealing with it all along that receiving no support in the lot of criticism from your nato allies so again why do you need that insurance policy for for a paying a lot and not get it getting too much in return your true that is correct and that's one of the things that needs to be reevaluated but it is a very important sharon's policy and not just from a military means also from a political means as well so i mean when we look at nate. yes the it needs to be reorganized it needs to be a review but that does not mean that the alliance does not have value going forward

it just needs it just means that there needs to be more of a look into the organization and creation of a new mandate for nato and i really believe that this is something that's going to be talked about over this $365.00 days until the next summit because regardless of the reaction to my comments he was definitely right there are problems inside nato this is something that president ad want to talk about focus on the specific comment by the by mr mccraw about nato supposedly brain death to each president. reacted very negatively how do you explain such a negative reaction by the turkish president to micron's assessment which at the end of the day doesn't really contradict what they're doing himself has been saying about the lack of the he said this about the lack of 1st a prosody about the lack of me chill in the standing calling the brain dead right before the leaders summit is a very undiplomatic movement it's true and the president erred on likes to telling truth with voters and his partners i suppose right if we look at the lead up into

the nato summit president that one had stressed that there were problems with nato he stressed it himself he stressed that he wanted the y.p. jeep to be recognized as a terror group and as i just stated before he stressed many times that these old institutions need a restructuring they need to become more dynamic he said they need to become more in close all inclusive and this security structure it needs to be $360.00 degrees all encompassing not just protecting baltic states not just protecting germany not just protecting x. y. z. country but also protecting turkey as well so why then yelling at micron why yelling at mccrum because mccrone is making a populous move and that was discrediting nato this is something that needs to be talked behind closed doors across a rookie president. he made this move to bring the spotlight on to himself if you make a rookie move like the way mccrone did you open yourself up to comments like an elder

statesman like president once said called him brain dead you have a media savvy president like the u.s. president u.s. president dollar trump saying hey how about some isis fighters you want them i can send them back to your country and then you have sitting at a press conference looking very funny at the camera because he has no answer to this mystery international politics has always been a bar with hard core bargaining sometimes even blackmail but most of it i would agree is usually done behind closed doors but i would argue that present added on together with mr trump by the way is one of those leaders that has brought it out into the open he often makes connection between for example the refugee issue and economic threats i mean he's doing that more than anyone else i do serious in saying that he he really dislikes populism if you want to touch on the refugee issue we look at the 2016 i know that i want to touch on the leadership style and the pope and the devotion to pope it was because if you say that though on the was

a nerd by mccrone populism are doing is the last person to blame somebody for populism i mean he's using populist tactics by himself and perhaps more than anyone else. well when you look at many of the stuff present that one stands for whether it be taking in 303600000 refugees whether it be asking the united nations to amend itself whether it be buying us for hundreds in the face of u.s. sanctions whether it be standing up for the j c.p.o. a and iran's rights these are not populist moves these are actually anti populist moves absolutely i just don't understand why he has an issue with somebody stating things as they are but cohen was just expressing his opinion about native with reach you agree that you're just sad that nader has many problems i think one of his biggest problems was what with the way mccrone communicated what with what he had to say he used very undiplomatic language we can go back to the letter that donald trump had sent president add one before us pro vice president mike pence

came again very undiplomatic language this is not the type of style the president wants used to be he's an elder statesman he's been around as the leader of turkey almost 20 years and another 1520 years in politics before that he likes protocol he likes diplomacy when you talk call a time honored sushi like nato braindead just 23 days before a summit and you put this tremendous amount of pressure on all these nato leaders who are coming and trying and hoping to be proactive yes you're going to get a lot of you're going to get a lot of backlash from these leaders. just happens to be more vocal than the other lead leaders i really like your jokey a matter for about nato. you need not so much of a brain surgeon but a psychologist to overcome what you again called i made life crisis but 70 years is not exactly midlife it's pretty it's a 3 day advanced age at which the risk of cognitive disability is indeed pretty high although most of them are usually in all pro bowl at that stage if the turks

don't like the analogy of brain doubt how bad scintillate t would you agree that nader is past its prime that. it needs to reconsider its life mission well like i said before it needs a strategic vision it needs to decide why it exists it needs a strong mandate right now the way nato is looking employing strategies and vision from the 1980 s. and 1990 s. nato basically looks just as an instrument for united states power projection on the continent of europe this is not helping anyone continuing to target russia and why many european countries are russian gas flowing through him many european countries meet with the russians on a regular basis you have turkey you have hungry you have greece talking with russia nato needs to change the way to gauge is russia this should not be

a target i mean just a couple days ago the russian president made a very sensible comment he said you know when they do was formed when they had it was formed look at its borders a look at nato as borders today and you know nato calls itself a defensive alliance but you see nato continuing its border towards russia i can understand from a perspective from the kremlin or from moscow when they look at nato if we empathize with them yes it does look threatening it doesn't look like a defensive alliance and it's not the time to escalate any more nato is not just a military means alliance it also has political means it needs to take into account the bilateral relations of each of its members and take a strong consensus of what serves the alliance the best today and tomorrow well mistery and we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments.

so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy confrontation let it be an arms race this on off and spearing dramatic development only closely i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time time to sit down and talk. with politicians to. put themselves on the line to get accepted or rejected. so we want to be president. for some water. to the right to due process this is what will be for 3 of the people. interested in the water.

you. are. welcome back to worlds apart but yusuf political analyst for turkey state run broadcaster right there world mr everyman just before the break we were talking about nader's need for a new vision and this is not just wishful thinking in fact every day keep nader is supposed to produce a concept its vision for a decade to come and the next one from what i understand is supposed to be out in 2020 but the work hasn't even started yet. do you personally believe that nato will avar reconsider reid just saying its main purpose which is confronting

containing moscow. i'm hoping it happens i'm hoping it happens because if it doesn't happen this alliance is slowly losing its mandate and reason for being and it would be very very sad because it's a very strong alliance that can get a lot done together these 29 countries when they come together there's no political or military force that can stand in their way it's incredibly powerful but it needs this vision it needs to be able to address the threats that these $29.00 countries are facing right now and these threats right now are mainly non-state actors instability in the middle east instability in the north africa these are the areas that the nato should be concentrating on we look at what europe's doing. no type of humanitarian effort into these areas trying to just block migrants or outsource the migrant issue they're not even taking back any of their isis fighters they're trying to outsource that issue to iraq which is not going to work because turkey is

working very hard to repatriate these fighters back there is a growing presence right now in north africa nobody's addressing this matter at least in a serious way there's instability in libya very key country protests throughout other north african countries and nato has been silent they have not been able to address these issues now i know that the starting from 2021 turkey sad to see him the latest ship of nato spear had for speech was created in 2015 specifically to watch the russian borders and to reassure the poles and the bulls against the suppose it russian aggression now do you think the poles and the bulls will feel any say. a for against the russian aggression on did the turkish command well when turkey is serving under nato there's totally different mandates for what the

military needs to do in the turkish military is professional it follows its mandate it's serving under the nato flag right there not under the turkish flag so there's no reason for the poles not to feel or the baltic states not to feel secure because of turkish presence in the end this is a nato command mission not a turkish mission and they will be following what their command mandate by the turkish military would also bring its institutional experience to that and you know that russia and turkey have had some pretty accurate security crisis the latest one the just a few years ago back in 2015 when we came very close to the press a precipice when the turkish military to down the russian. military jets and nato had to consider whether to invoke article 5 not just in theory but in practice we walked back from that precipice we have that experience that our 2 countries do you think turkey has anything to impart to its other nato allies about how to deal with

russia in a program matic manner the 1st thing with the russian downing of the russian jet there was many many many factors at play there that had nothing to do with the turkish leadership i think the kremlin and i think the kremlin understood that very well well they the kremlin the distant that's very well and then rolled out very how sanctions against turkana to get the mediation of some of our neighbors to bring their relationship back together i don't want to argue about the specifics because i think we would never agree my point is that we had that moment of crisis and we were able to overcome the mistrust i'm sure the mistrust is still there between moscow and acro but they are able to work together on areas that are mutually important do you think there is and i think that they can share with its mater. allies with regards to how to deal with russia turkey can definitely serve as a mediator need be because it does share many it does share many interests with russia

also shares many interests with its nato allies and one of the things that turkey has tried to do over the last 10 to 15 years is create a more independent foreign policy creating this independent foreign policy is cause a lot of friction between it itself and the united states a country that it used to always call strategic ally but nowadays it's seeing less and less like a strategic ally but turkey's ability to be able comp compartmentalize problems and negotiate on strengths this is something that does very very well it's done this very well with russia on this very well with other countries you know there's a new nato russia strategic council that meets almost every year and even though this group is small and even though it doesn't get much press it does exist so there is dialogue between nato and russia it's not that it's nonexistent but it is something that does need to be strengthened we're seeing many of the members of the

alliance are slowly starting to have by a list stronger and stronger bilateral relations with russia especially regarding commercial and energy interests between europe and russia so as these interests grow and as this economically russia becomes more intertwined with europe going forward into the future. i feel there's going to be less and less need to be half of the members to want to escalate anything with the kremlin and i just see a vision changing with inside nato but this is something that countries like. united states and the u.k. the heavy hitters of nato. the members of nato that actually have serious diplomatic weight inside the alliance are going to slowly have to come in except while denied states has difficulties accepting many things including the turkish purchase of the russian made asked 400 systems reach is older more surprising

considering that 4 years ago after the jat incident the russian moved its own 400 systems to syria and didn't. exclude a possibility of fusing them against turkey itself. why do you think perceive your face. despite all depression and old the criticism and all the potential sanctions threatened by the united states well 1st thing we know that the u.s. turkey 1st tried to purchase u.s. patriots it didn't get a favorable deal the financial conditions were very bad there was no technology transfer turkey was put on about a 50 month waiting list if it did approve the sale and even after the sale even after the deal was signed there was no guarantee that congress was going to approve the sale so turkey didn't want to risk its air defense system on a patriot that could quite possibly never be delivered so it reopened the tender at

1st it was in talks with china that didn't happen that deal fell through and then there was the s 400 s. for hundreds a very good air defense system i think frankly it's superior to the patriot the price is cheaper and it came at a time when turkey russia relations were improving so it was a natural step forward to bind that relationship even better going forward mr m. you said to add a few minutes ago that nato provides you with the perfect security guarantee why do you need to buy an additional security and against who against what turkey wanted its own air defense system this is something that is wanted for a while said the nato security guarantees not an advantage of the day maybe it's not enough maybe that's something that does need to be looked into like i said we know that there's about $6700.00 missiles that touched down on turkish soil throughout the 9 years of the syrian conflict this is a huge number and while turkey does have i believe patriots from spain in the

missile i believe from italy i'm not sure which country positioned inside turkey turkey wants its own air defenses. it is well under its own control and it's been after the pictures for more than a decade and when it didn't get it like they said yes $400.00 was a very logical alternative it's also good to diversify your weapon per weapons per portfolio you shouldn't just be buying weapons from one or 2 countries when you remember if a collective security treaty that supposedly covers all your security is a difficult to understand why would you spend enormous and amount of resources on the sensually following 2 security routes now the united states has been threatening turkey with sanctions quite some time but it's been 5 months since the 1st systems were delivered to turkey and cots still hasn't been applied do you think it will ever be that's a good question and i think cats is slowly causing

a problem for the united states because it's now seeing more and more of its allies . taking a step towards buying russian weapons we're seeing india we're seeing saudi arabia the united arab emirates and egypt now either bought buying or interested in buying russian weapons now if you set a precedent and placed cats on turkey you're going to place cats on all these other u.s. allies so it's it's getting to a point where it's looking like the future of cats is going to be very counterproductive i don't think they thought it all the way through when they were rushing this bill through the 1st year of the presidency and they basically had to force and force it down is down his throat he didn't really want cats about it got approved with such great support throughout congress there was nothing he can do it was his hands were tied and we are seeing the u.s. president try to hold off on it because he sees a future he sees this is going to become a problem for the united states going forward it's going to anger many of his

allies not just turkey many other allies going forward and in the end this is against international trade rules and regulations so i mean there's really. it is really not a sensible rule and every once you let the cat's out of the bag it's a pandora's box mystery my hey i hate to break it to you but i think the united states doesn't really care that much about following international rules or regulations or consistency for that matter now we're almost out of time and i want to i guess ask you one last question about the turkish fit into nato because within the framework of nato you call france germany greece and your allies but when it comes to the e.u. framework. you know alice you know i know the even the prospective member i guess anymore and i've just come back from the balkans and i think especially in the balkans it's pretty avid then that the europeans see turkish presence there as something unfriendly and something competitive so i guess i'm repeating myself but

i want to ask you how can you commit yourself to having the backs of your neighbors when you disagree on so many fundamental issues on the system of governance on the rule of law on what terrorism is on what are the main threats to you i mean what is there to agree upon what is there the cherokee agrees with nato on what we have to realize this now when we look at bilateral relations and we look at relations inside of a wider institution like whether it be nato or a union like the european union there's different mandates there's different interests at play and there's different dynamics at play yes bilateral relations with france turkey has some problems but there's also many areas of trade turkey works on defense cooperation turkey work sign and these are very very old relations with the european countries dating back centuries so it's not something that you can just look at on one issue you have to compartmentalize diplomacy and that's what the plough misses it's the power to be able to compartmentalize and work on

strengths there's incredible amount of trade with germany there's $4000000.00 target if they are these all can be done within the framework of bilateral relations why do you need nato for why do you need nato for that paying a lot of huge used to these collective security treaty and not getting anything you have to give and the other the defense system from russia you have to fight terrorism all by yourself what's the point of collective security as far as dirk is concerned i've been asking you this all along and i haven't heard the answer yet the the point for collective security is like i said it's an important it's an important security blanket for turkey if it ever needs it in the future it hasn't needed it today. it would need it maybe in northeast syria you never know what the future brings it's important to have this type of security blanket then nato is a very powerful organization it gives turkish foreign policy weight when dealing with other countries as well it acts as a balance when dealing with other countries as well whether it be the whether it be

russia whether it be china so it's an important political backing it's an important military backing is it helping today in the turkey's problems in northeast syria no it's not helping has turkey given a lot in the past it has but we don't know what tomorrow can bring and nato is still important to turkey turkey is very important to nato alcoholic mistery month very optimistic knowledge we have to leave it there thank you very much for sharing your thoughts about us today thank you our viewers can keep this conversation going in our social media pages ask for me and the team we hope to see her again same place same time i will depart. for.

join me every thursday on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics school this i'm show business i'll see you then. we'll. get his community there are people who believe that it's ok to sell fractional food and it's really hard there are no jobs and you see that kids ask and as a parent. i can come up with lots of arguments and there's a lot of conflict in the game between the close of the conflict i would say over balls around morning and then there's me. close one on each of those he knows each other is good because the state of california alone makes $6000000000.00

a year of prison complex just to get some point in your life where. you don't care anymore so you'll hear more and anything. 3 people are killed after a saudi air force trainee opens fire at a u.s. naval base in florida the authorities are investigating whether it's terror related . north korea has conducted what it calls a very important test that a site state media reports about and that says tensions spiked between the country and the u.s. with pyongyang saying its no longer willing to hold talks on its nuclear program. no matter a u.k. dimension charity show he criticizes online retailers for saying christmas called making fun of people without swathes. of those all the headlines and that's it for me for now andrew cuomo will be head next hour to take you.