is now warning of julian assange just a possible death in british custody and the u.n. warning of his torture in britain and now joins from camera by australia's former deputy prime minister barnaby joyce forward everybody minister thank you so much for coming on going underground before we get to one of your fellow australian citizens and his alleged torture by britain's belmarsh prison in london your take on the catastrophic bushfires we're obviously having a climate change a conference call 25 in madrid at the moment your reaction 4000 square miles of just new south wales alone bird to aggress your walls catastrophic when you have far as where the smog ends up in new zealand you know that it's a catastrophic fire we have to repeal some of the vegetation wars because people couldn't get proper access on roads because trees that form of the roads and excess green legislation that said you cannot have a trades in paid the capacity of fire trucks to arrive at areas and people to evacuate from those areas obviously we have to accept that the climate is changing

and it's harder and it's drawing but no legislation in our palm that's going to change that we need you know when the people's republic of china decide to change in india the zaza change and. then i suppose we can have a some water a mitigant against that the chinese communist party claims to be engaging in the largest renewable program in world history but what you seem to be saying is it's not just climate change it's. some of the responsibility has to be the prime minister scott morrison says well look at china can say that but they are going to put on a lot more call for power stations and stronger as in the coming years. it's kind of which way do you want to. also we have to acknowledge that china doesn't have to sign up to any of the the you know the emission reduction process they might be signing up to the treaty but their actual active active action once started 2030 likewise with india and you know as i always say to people if you think we can change. his actions in regards carbon emissions then why stop there maybe you

should make a move on getting them to mensa pave the way to people who are incarcerated in excess of a 1000000 a north west of china well of course china also denies that the existence of any reeducation camps of the sort you talked about in mainstream media but let's get to our australian citizen julian as zoology confinement in britain what do you understand australian prime minister scott morrison is doing for julian assange the world's most famous publisher well i think is the issue here is we've got to take the julian a songe as the central figure out of the equation and let's just talk about sovereignty remember julian assange was in a stray incidents the novices in the united states he wasn't in the united states when they happened they didn't come from julia songe there were leaks from a person who had that thomas called bradley manning now called chelsea manning so what exactly are you going to extradite julian a songe

a citizen of the stroke here to the united states for for the actions of a another party bradley manning who gave him information which he then published surely that is no different to the newspapers you then publish what was on wiki leaks maybe they should all go to the united states to be tried under united states law i mean where does this one stop it's patently absurd with you like him or not i think i particularly like you in a sanjeev i met him i don't think i don't warm to him as a character and i want to make this explicitly clear this is about the principle of law the principle of sovereignty not about my views good or otherwise about a person i'm jus innocent. obviously the un special rapporteur actually spoke to us the other day telling us smears of his character a part of his georgia but after what you just said why do you think then that prime minister scott morrison is clear he says he is unable to intervene for what you say

is a case of an australian facing the wrong jurisdiction well you know i try to. pose the question i'll do my part here i'll say that. even in the united states there are those that have clearly said that they cannot be an indictment against you in a songe is not says and of the united states certainly there are people from the united states who are not even though other countries may wish their presence to be indicted for events is there's no way in god's earth of the united states release them for that we have an issue here they talk about press freedom and that is the capacity of journalists to print what has been delivered to them by another source where they haven't actually committed a crime breaking in accessing those that information but merely printed it and my problem is not just with people in sort of premier positions of politics in the stroller it's also with the media i think really a little bit hypocritical on this that they railed against other journalists who

they feel were if affected in offended by. raids on them in regards information they've got. on other issues person and to government policy and they say that this is unfair not rageous but when it came to the issues with mr songe they weren't so vociferously in fact though in some instances they lost their tongue now woods suggest you have to be consistent. and consistency should not be on the character of mr assad's because that becomes a person's personal views about another person to be on the principles of law and should be on the principles of sovereignty it's. to be on the premise of facts but he wasn't in the united states so i mean how do you commit a crime in a country weren't in. here will the united nations agrees with you so what are australian elites so frightened of as they said i mean this is scott morrison says he can't intervene but surely you're referring to barrie cassidy of the australian

broadcasting corporation who runs a program inside is apparently. they were revealing u.s. war crimes in afghanistan based on wiki leaks revelations and they were raided by federal police in australia or you will i mean are those follow me on wiki leaks i read about it in the australian i brought it up with president barack obama actually when he was here said are you might have read about me on wiki leaks some rather surprised and your views about me i hope that we have an argument or debate around the principles of loran the principles of sovereignty not some sort of sort of he said she said character assessment about mr songe because that one just gets bogged down in personality bog and people's fears and and loses sight of the facts now we've had something similar this before and that was the david hicks case is another person that i have are a god for but in that case once more i spoke up against then my prime minister

which was john howard saying look corpus is a principle that exists beyond the seas of david hicks and we have to abide by habeas corpus now the good thing about that is she was there many senior q.c.'s that actually came out after that and supported me and i said you know we're so glad someone said that because that is exactly our views we have no we have no real law like or otherwise or affinity or. with the david hicks he image of david hicks was really incidence sent to us torture camp but guantanamo you campaigned for him do you think us are just lawyers should bear in mind given that the 26 hicks case. against the australian government was also about extradition this going to the australian citizen rights well the thing that annoyed me that's a just one of one of his grades advocates was a former marine u.s. marine went to listen to a u.s. marine. basically condemn us and say why don't you stick up for your own citizens

it's not a character of system as a belief in your own laws now. you know i had to agree with him and what i want in this instance is the same sort of. clear thought that we're not going to bat for mr assad's going to bat for the principle of a strain sovereignty and the promise of a strand lords over straley ans. to be quite frank who were in australia ok but you were deputy prime minister are you seriously saying the north who is a at the cia n.s.a. base at pine gap near other springs could commit a crime and would be tried in australia or not immediately bundled off to one of the united states is black sites or or even going to have them or would they have a different scenario there 1st of all there in australia and then be initially tried by strand lords and if there was an offense against the strand laws then i suppose. that you know that what course of action happens after that i'm not

familiar with all the can or espionage or laws in the strobe it if that was an offense against a strand law for which one of the actions is so prescribed by that law was that you could be extradited to the united states and that's completely different issue but in this instance i don't think society even broken australian war there was no law to break he he didn't he didn't go in and break into a computer bradley manning deed he was merely the receiver of information from bradley manning so we can at least reveal the gulf with bloom was a victory overthrown by the usa for speaking out about buying gap saying it might be close if you threw the cia out do you think given that was by the governor general of australia. might have to explain what the governor general is this quote morris is a bit frightened of intervening on his because david hurley you know governor general zack scott morrison well look i don't think that's not a look on trying to be a straight shooter and i'm telling you the way i see these signs so i'm going to be a straight shooter on this other hence absolute rubbish and you know that the cia i

changed is trying government is trying papal change is trying government because everybody misses the 2nd part of that story yes. governor general her at that stage . basically sacked or put aside. gough whitlam the promise to go off with them because the palm it was becoming an operable and things were and i bill to get through it now the then they had an election and the astronomy and people decided who the government would be the final arbiter of that was these trained people play thought that you know mr whitman was the right person i would have elected him back in but i didn't and just finally about election interference and xander down of the 4 were foreign minister a controversial figure being attacked by one of the old drums full of foreign policy advisers george problems in the united states he is warning the british people of a corbin government in the united kingdom the interference from a former australian foreign minister. you know if you want to listen closely to

alexander downer and i bet you've had a straw poll of 100 people in the streets of piccadilly i'll be very surprised if more than 5 of them knew who alexander downer was i don't say that is interference for what everybody has to thank you you're welcome thank you very much after the break with mainstream media coverage of politics ahead of thursday's u.k. general election down for bias could know him chomsky the author of manufacturing consent about power and propaganda actually be wrong not about propaganda but about linguistics we talked to professor marc methot about the cradle of humanity all this is. well coming up about 2 and going underground. globalization the dollars a share you know that's happening in the world us time drifting apart

a lot of different ways we look into it because there's an economic force spined it as always. welcome back whatever the result of thursday's u.k. general election one of the key themes of the campaign leading up to it has been the propensity of particular politicians to lie to the public but where does this human characteristic to manipulate come from and how did it arguably become the most important evolutionary trait of all time one that guaranteed human supremacy over the other apes joining me now is professor mark madison whose new book the cradle of humanity have the changing landscape of africa made us so smart is out now mark welcome back to going on the ground tell me about the cradle of humanity you what what 3 and a half 1000000000 years in this book well i to start watching the beginning of the

universe and what we really want the bike shops are you know but really on focusing on about the last 5000000 years where the real key steps for human evolution are things that make us who we are now before we get into the skull i'm going to ask you with climate change obviously being the most pressing issue homan ns now which is what you call them there in the book. some people might be surprised to see that you talk about obviously the book is about brain development and evolution but you talk about the hugely important aspect and influence of plate tectonics from climate over. geophysical changes on climate you don't think putin in trouble read the book and say drill away with the fossil fuels well i think the interesting thing about plate tectonics is it sets the scene if we look say at the difference between say amazonia and east africa at the moment amazonia is flat and has been

flat for basically 2030 1000000 years whereas everything's changed in east africa and that's the driving force so without the uplift of the rift valley without the fragmentation of the vegetation those primates that living there wouldn't have a volt and we wouldn't exist so that fragmentation in those shoots mountain ranges are absolutely essential to produce the environment which then created the right conditions for us to get smarter but it is landscape and climate together continually into change affecting how our brains became brame's what the key thing is if you think about living on africa you want fresh water you want to be able to have food etc and if those change or they drop off the menu you suddenly have to adapt and so that's what evolution is it's a way of basically changing organisms to actually cope with the rapid changes

around you and actually one of the key things was asking smarter well i'll get to the brains of the 2nd but then what do you use this phrase climate rollercoasters what are climate rollercoasters and their influence on human habitation and all animal life so one of the interesting things is it's a real mixture of all the influences we got the tectonics uplifting africa and fragmenting it we then have changes in the way the earth what goes around the sun which changes the rainfall patterns in east africa so we suddenly get wet periods and then dry periods which fill up these huge lakes in east africa and then they disappear and it's that stress that rapid stress that roller coaster or of between joe. narrations is a desert is of the lake that's what's actually driving the evolution but you maintain that all that powerful influence and determinacy is nothing as compared to the past 100 years or so of the industrial revolution in the last 100 years we have completely changed the face of the earth and it's not just climate change if you

look at all of our impact when the best stat i have is if we think about the weight of mammals on the land at the moment 30 percent are humans 67 percent is all our livestock only 3 percent of them aren't life that david attenborough and others keep running around trying to film so we completely change the surface of the earth in a 100 years and getting back to the skull yes. so crucial of all the influences of all these cross influences these girls are a testament to that so if we have a look at the skulls i mean the most important monocles is here this one is sort of lucy now lucy. is probably came up to your mid sort of arm and was slightly smarter than the chimpanzee but was walking up like by peter and that's the 1st thing that happens that's fragmentation of east africa meant that

food sources became further apart and therefore if you have to be a primate like a chimpanzee the easiest way to be fish until locomotion get up and walk so that's the 1st bit ok so we go from the this we're seeing from australia to see. so we have here the start of 'd our own lineage which is homo and the interesting thing is as you notice there isn't really much difference in size the only reason this one is called home hubble is is because it was found with stone tools and that time in these of late 6 in the early seventy's stone tools for supposed to be amazing these were the things that set us apart from other animals we now know that other animals used tools and we also know that stone tools have been found much much earlier now many years separate them. so this one occurs about 2 and a half 1000000 years ago in east africa this one occurs about 2 and a half 1000000 years and then we go on to my favorite not abstract thought yet when

you go into a when not this is where the controversy comes in because this is homo erectus this is truly the step forwards they stand about same height as us their skull is about 80 percent bigger than sort of previously it has social groups it has changes in our movement so we know that they could throw spears if they wanted to they also have nearly a 100 adaptations for long distance running and this means that this is actually being kept in home a ses i smile there bravely because later in the book you talk about female undergraduates using a male partner based on spear throwing but i gather that the 2nd well actually it's not specific it's sense of humor because in the book i'm trying to illustrate that actually we move forward socially once we get a bigger brain most important thing isn't how fast are you how strong you are it's

basically how do you controlling that group how good it you are manipulating a whole country to vote for you i know that's a big political. but there's one there so this one is robust i this is. this actually occurs 1800000 years ago and it occurs at the same time as homo erectus and this is really interesting for us because they're both at the same time and it's looks like we have this species homo erectus trying to get smarter to think their way out of problems and then you have this one which has a much smaller brain so this is a shrinking brain so you have 2 different approaches about 1800000 years ago which is the environment changing so rapidly you either think your way out or you basically can eat anything. the 2 different approaches and our understanding is you just mentioned they were contemporaneous yes there has been interbreeding between

coexistence species for hundreds of thousands of years oh absolutely of the one new thing we found with all the beautiful genetic data coming out of all the fossils particularly out of the anatole things are is that there is no true species here all of these were interbreeding they were competing with each other and therefore we're a hodgepodge of all of that there's actually made it through to the modern century what is the nature of scholarly internal politics say between these is these 2 it's these 2 other so the problem is that because of the way fines are found during time this species homo habilis was found by the brilliant louis leakey and he described it and found it was stone tools and therefore they honestly thought in the late sixty's early seventy's they found the leap forward and therefore they described it and talked about it we now know with loss more data i mean we found 15

new species in the last 25 years so our knowledge has grown exponentially we now know that really it's homo erectus is the start of homo and the problem is the species name is there and it's just too much effort to change it these surprise surprise when you do your work how long it takes for the mutations to act i mean you say it took 100000 years from say 200000 years ago for homo sapiens to get abstract thought. they were important so the interesting thing about homo sapien is that we have here about 302200000 years ago in africa and then what happens is those waves of us coming out so there's a big wave about 100000 years ago that makes all the way over to china into southern russia and that species we found tall zick cetera but there's an interesting thing because there is

a new species or actually it's the same species but slightly altered that then comes out at 60000 years this one more than humans or homo sapien $2.00 other than this one over much better maine where where where it came with the modern human $2.00 spreads out an interesting lee takes over from the early homo sapien and it basically outcompetes possibly kills all the other competitors and that's the species that we're all related to so it's about 60 to 70000 years ago something changed cognitively in homo sapien in east africa that meant that we started to cumulate knowledge quicker and quicker and quicker and that's were as species does too we're not talking the language yet because you you do criticize the interim view of linguistics arguably or because you don't believe it was a single event or chomsky suddenly thinks that homo sapien appeared and went i can think i can speak no again if you look at say chimpanzees communicating they

already have communication if you look at say homo erectus they're working in large groups they were communicating i'm pretty sure that homo erectus was already using language though primitive language to organize remember this is a species that is going out hunting. well maybe not generative grammar though they will get where they are going to turn is read on the show before we get them back going to say yes no specifics will get ahead of actors here i'm a glee all of this evolution its impact on brain size you talk about new theories about the fact the brame's has the need for it was to do with sexual interaction sexual and social interaction and the choice of partners and also this opportunity of 150 people within a community the basically the brain is about community not isolation oh absolutely so what the ideas are about why we have such

a large brain is not so we can do advanced mathematics is not me so we can understand language it is so we understand the so short situations where in it so we can basically protect ourselves in a social situation it's so we can manipulate others and again they sexual bit comes in if you happen to be looking for the perfect partner you don't necessarily want the tallest the strongest the fastest you want the one who's basically most persuasive you want the one that basically looks after 150 people go why now i think you're really good at hunting you should go out hunting you should be collecting berries i'm going to stay here make sure what he does everything and i'm going to control the group this is why when you ask people what is a really important of kalak to mystic that they want in a male sense of humor and just for anyone who wonders why they are always communicating with 150 maximum what's behind the 150 on social media it works as well it does know i think and people think well i've now got

a 1000 friends no you haven't so the 150 is what our brains can actually deal with and 150 is people that we know lots of details about so you have some idea of their backgrounds the way they're going to react in certain situations beyond that we can go up to about thought. only 1000 people that we actually know their faces and put a name to thank you so we still have much wind in that 150 is repeated it's christmas card lists it is church sizes it's mediæval village is all about 156 is a number that keeps coming up and they are not they should also given that this program talks a lot about extreme violence between humans. in that you talk about these numbers of people within communities you call them ultra social we're ultra social we are animals unlike any other and we are but we have disproportionately less violence as human beings than to any other as

a living i think this is what many people not good believe well no what people don't understand is that man no male violence ok reactive violence which is you looked at me strange i'm going to hit you it's so rare in human society ok so we live in london in a city of about 8000000 people ok and men are walking past each other all the time without trying to hit each other a male chimpanzee in a small social group cannot go a day without hitting somebody ok or getting annoyed ok a lot of animals are like that because all the testosterone we as males has so many subtle ways of sizing up opponents making sure that we have some status lots of smart ways of showing who's smarter who's got more money etc loss of little showy things which then deescalate so we were really really good avoiding one on one violence so if you and i are out we will work together as a brilliant team make an abscess of the taking down mammoths ok as regularly this

isn't a well let's take a mammoth less do it once what we want them all out of as a mcmansion thank you that's over the chair we'll be back on wednesday still in the u.k. general election reporting restrictions and on the eve of the vote until then people talk about social media don't forget to subscribe to going underground to you tube . first ukraine leaders from russia ukraine germany and france meet in paris to tackle ukraine's internal divisions are there reasons for optimism and impeachment are the democrats secretly scheming to have trump actually really.

the world is driven by dreamers shaped by those great. military says thinks. we dare to ask. when there is only mr johnson mom. and i just got out of prison for. 41 years. i'm 72 years old now i gotta rest for tomorrow for some of the. big fill in on life just everything was taken out of.

my work in the hospital bed was from a. mental snowman that looks a little bit like me. i would rather color about. homicide want to come. now. and work out how tough the units battle so you go. so they don't need to go to the corner. on the phone. trying to get a. snow do something right. now

breaking news story for years off the world stage the international anti doping agency shuts the door on team russia over what it said was. the key doping. russia though cries foul saying it provided all the answers necessary claims it's been ignored for at least plan to take the decision to sports scores as an athlete's punishment is harsh politicize. the leaders of russia and ukraine france and germany with the normandy for summit in full swing to agree a road map to peace in eastern ukraine.