election and the u.k. court appearance by the most famous publisher in the world julian assange of wiki leaks who doctors fear will die imprisoned in solitary confinement at a supermax prison for revealing defacto u.k. backed war crimes coming out of the show australia's former deputy prime minister barnaby joyce shells going on the ground that the issue of a songes extradition to the usa is one of australian sovereignty over its citizens and justice itself and the cradle of humanity from the big bang to the birth of civilization we investigate the cause of a clue that led to the creation of the human ability to manipulate others all the small coming up in today's going underground but 1st the day after this week's u.k. general elections on thursday june innocence founder of wiki leaks is said tool to appear at westminster magistrates court in london it follows his removal from the ecuadorian embassy here with his 70 is he had been granted political asylum from u.s. prosecution for revealing nato nation war crimes and songes australian and successive australian governments have come under fire for not caring about the protection of

this citizen australia as part of the so-called 5 eyes mass surveillance system about which cia whistleblower edward snowden revealed so much before seeking asylum in russia with doctors now warning of joining a songes possible death and british custody and the un warning of his torture in britain and now joins from camera by australia's former deputy prime minister barnaby joyce forward everybody minister thank you so much for coming on going underground before we get to one of your fellow australian citizens and his alleged torture by britain to belmarsh prison in london your take on the catastrophic bushfires we're obviously having a climate change a conference call 25 in madrid at the moment your reaction 4000 square miles of just new south wales alone burnt to a crisp you know walls catastrophic when you have fires where the smoke ends up in new zealand you know that it's a catastrophic fall we have to repeal some of the vegetation laws because people couldn't get proper access. it's on roads because trees that form of the roads and

excess green legislation that said you cannot have a trade in paid the capacity of fire trucks to arrive in areas and people to evacuate from those areas obviously we have to accept that the climate is changing and it's harder and it's drawing but no legislation in our palm that's going to change that we need you know when the people's republic of china decide to change in india desires to change and. then i suppose we can have a some water of a mitigant against that chinese communist party claims to be engaging in the largest renewable program in world history but what you seem to be saying is it's not just climate change it's. some of the responsibility has to be the prime minister scott morrison well look at china can say that but they're going to put on a lot more coffee is about another person to be on the principles of law and should be on the principles of sovereignty it should be on the premise of facts but he wasn't in the united states so i mean how do you commit a crime in

a country weren't in. here will the united nations agrees with you so what are australian elites so frightened of as they said i mean this is scott morrison says he can't intervene but surely you're referring to barrie cassidy of the australian broadcasting corporation who runs a program inside his apparently. they were revealing u.s. war crimes in afghanistan based on wiki leaks revelations and they were raided by the federal police in australia or yeah well i mean are those follow me on wiki leaks i read about it in the australian i brought it up with president barack obama actually when he was here said are you might have read about me on wiki leaks some rather surprised and your views about me are i hope that we have an argument or debate around the principles of loran the principles of sovereignty not some sort of sort of he said she said character assessment about mr songe because that one just gets bogged down in personality bug and people's fears and. and lose sight of

the facts now we've had something similar like this before and that was the david hicks case is another person that i have are a god for but in that case once more i spoke up against then my prime minister which was john howard saying look corpus is a principle that exist beyond the seas of david hicks and we have to abide by habeas corpus now the good thing about that is she was there many senior q.c.'s that actually came out after that and supported me and i said you know we're so glad someone said that because that is exactly of use we have no we have no real like or otherwise or affinity or. with the david hicks he image of david hicks was really an citizen sent to us torture camp but guantanamo you campaigned for him do you think us are just lawyers should bear in mind given that the 26 hicks case against the australian government was also about extradition this going

in australian citizen rights well the thing that annoyed me that's a just one of one of hicks is gray's advocates was a former marine u.s. marine went to listen to a u.s. marine. basically condemn us and say why don't you stick up for your own citizens it's not a character of system and see a belief in your own laws now. you know i had to agree with him and what i want in this instance is the same sort of. clear thought that we're not going to bat for mr assad's going to bat for the principle of a strained sovereignty and the primacy of a strand law was over strongly and. to be quite frank who were in australia ok but you were deputy prime minister are you seriously saying the north who is a at the cia n.s.a. base at pine gap near other springs could commit a crime would be driving australia not immediately bundled off to one of the united states is black sites or. or even going to anima where they have

a different scenario the 1st of all they're in australia and that be initially tried by strand lords and if there was an offense against the strand laws then i suppose. that you know what course of action happens after that i'm not familiar with all the can respect the laws in the strobe but if that was an offense against a strand law for which one of the actions is so prescribed bar that law was that you could be extradited to the united states and that's completely different issue but in this instance i don't think society even broken australian war there was no law to break he he didn't he didn't go in and break into a computer bradley manning deed he was merely the receiver of information from bradley manning so we can at least reveal the gulf with bloom was a victory overthrown by the usa for speaking out about prying gap saying it might be close if you threw the cia do you think given that was by the governor general of australia might have to explain what the governor general is this court morrison's been frightened of intervening on as david hurley you know governor

general zack scott morrison well look i don't think that's not a look odd trying to be a straight shooter and i'm telling you the way i see these. so i'm going to be a straight shooter on this i think it's absolute rubbish you know that the cia i changed is trying government is trying papal change is trying government because everybody misses the 2nd part of that story yes. governor general her at that stage . basically sacked or put aside. go off on the promise of off because the palm it was becoming an operable and things and i will to get through it now the then they had an election and the astronomy and people decided who the government would be the final arbiter of that was these trained people play thought that you know mr whitman was the right person i would have elected him back in but i didn't and just finally about election interference xander down to the for a foreign minister conjurer. actual figure being attacked by one of donald trump's

full of foreign policy advisers george puppet obama's and the united states he is warning the british people of a cool being government in the united kingdom is an interference from a form of australian foreign minister. you know if you want to listen closely to alexander downer and i bet you've had a stroll paul of 100 people in the streets of piccadilly i'll be very surprised if more than 5 of them knew who alexander downer was i don't say that is interference for what everybody has to thank you you're welcome thank you very much after the break with mainstream media coverage of politics ahead of thursday's u.k. general election down for bias could you know him chomsky the old 3rd of manufacturing consent about power and propaganda actually be wrong not about propaganda but about linguistics we talk to profess about mass than about the cradle of humanity all the civil coming up about to going underground.

seems wrong. just don't call. me. yet to see. these things come to cancer. and engagement equals betrayal. when something find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. globalisation the dollars a piano that's happening in the world is kind of drifting apart in a lot of different ways we look into it because there's an economic force behind it is always. welcome by. whatever the result of those u.k.

general election one of the key themes of the campaign leading up to it has been the propensity of particular politicians to lie to the public but where does this human characteristic to manipulate come from and how did it arguably become the most important evolutionary trait of all time one that guaranteed human supremacy over the other apes joining me now is professor mark maslin whose new book the cradle of humanity have the changing landscape of africa made us so smart is out now mark welcome back to going on the ground tell me about the cradle of humanity you what what 3 and a half 1000000000 years in this book well i do start watching the beginning of the universe and what a relief for the baiji i'm a chapter you know but really i'm focusing on about the last 5000000 years where the real key steps for human evolution are things that make us who we are now before we get into the skull i'm going to ask you with climate change obviously being the most pressing issue homonyms yeah which is what you call them there in the book. some people might be surprised to see that you talk about obviously the

book is about brain development in the evolution but you talk about the hugely important aspect an influence of plate tectonics on climate of geo physical changes on climate you don't think putin in trouble read the book and say drill away with the fossil fuels well i think the interesting thing about plate tectonics is it sets the scene if we look say at the difference between say amazonia and east africa at the moment amazonia is flat and it's been flat for basically 2030 1000000 years where is everything's changed in east africa and that's the driving force so without the uplift of the rift valley without the fragmentation of the vegetation those primates that are living there wouldn't have evolved and we wouldn't exist so that fragmentation in those shoes mountain ranges are absolutely essential. to produce the environment which then created the right

conditions for us to get smarter but it is landscape and climate together continually 'd into change affecting how our brains became brains what the key thing is if you think about living on africa you want fresh way drop off the menu you suddenly have to adapt and so that's what evolution is it's a way of basically changing organisms to actually cope with the rapid changes around you and actually one of the key things was asking smarter well i'll get to the brains of the 2nd but then what do you use this phrase climate rollercoasters what are climate rollercoasters and their influence on human habitation and all animal life so one of the interesting things is it's a real mixture of all the influences of all the tectonics uplifting africa and fragmenting it we then have changes in the way the earth what goes around the sun which changes the rainfall patterns in east africa so we suddenly get wet periods

and then dry periods which fill up these shoojit lakes in east africa and then they disappear and it's that stress that rapid stress that rollercoaster or of between generations is a desert is of the lake that's what's actually driving the evolution but you maintain that all that powerful influence and determinacy is nothing as compared to the past 100 years or so of the industrial revolution in the last 100 years we have completely changed the face of the earth and it's not just climate change if you look at all of our impact when the best stat i have is if we think about the weight of mammals on the land at the moment 30 percent are humans 67 percent is all our livestock only 3 percent of them aren't life that david attenborough and others keep running around trying to film so we completely change the surface of the earth in a 100 years and going back to the skull yes. so crucial

of all the influences of all these cross influences these girls are a testament to that so if we have a look at the skulls i mean the most important monocles is here this one is sort of lucy now lucy. is probably came up to your mid sort of arm and was slightly smarter than a chimpanzee but was walking up like by peter and that's the 1st thing that happens that's fragmentation of east africa meant that food sources became further apart and therefore if you have to be a primate like a chimpanzee the easiest way to be a fish until locomotion get up and walk so that's the 1st bit ok so we go from the this we're seeing from australia you see. so we have here the start of 'd our own lineage which is homo and the interesting thing is as you notice there isn't really much difference in size the only reason this one is called home hubble is is

because it was found with stone tools and that time in these of late 6 in the early seventy's stone tools for supposed to be amazing these were the things that set us apart from other animals we now know that other animals used tools and we also know that stone tools have been found much much earlier now how many years separate them so this one occurs about 3 and a half 1000000 years ago in east africa this one occurs about 2 and a half 1000000 years and then we go on to my favor in order to abstract thought yet window into a we're not this is where the controversy comes in because this is homo erectus this is truly the step forward they stand about same height as us their skull is about 80 percent bigger than sort of previously it has social groups it has changes in our movement so we know that they could throw spears if they wanted to. they also have nearly

a 100 adaptations for long distance running and this means that this is actually being kept in homer ses i smile there bravely because later in the book you talk about female undergraduates using a male partner based on spear throwing but i gather that the 2nd well actually it's not specific it's sense of humor because in the book i'm trying to illustrate that actually we move forward socially once we get a bigger brain most important thing isn't how fast are you how strong you are it's basically how could you controlling that group how good it you are manipulating a whole country to vote for you know that's been up. to but there's one there so this one is robust i this is. this actually occurs 1800000 years ago and it occurs at the same time as homo erectus and this is really interesting for us because they're both at the same time and it's looks like we have this species homo erectus trying to get smarter to think their way out of problems and then you have

this one which has a much smaller brain so this is a shrinking brain so you have 2 different approaches about 1800000 years ago which is the environment changing so rapidly you either think your way out or you basically can eat anything earth are 2 different approaches and our understanding is you just mentioned they were contemporaneous yes there has been interbreeding between coexistence species for hundreds of thousands of years oh absolutely of the one new thing we found with all the beautiful genetic data coming out of all the fossils particularly out of neanderthals things are is that there is no true species here all of these were interbreeding they were competing with each other and therefore we're a hodgepodge of all of that there's actually made it through to the modern century what is the nature of scholars. the internal politics say between these is these 2

it's these 2 other so the problem is that because of the way fines are found during time this species homo habilis was found by the brilliant louis leakey and he described it and found it was stone tools and therefore they honestly thought in the late sixty's no seventy's they found the leap forward and therefore they described it and talked about it we now know with loss more data i mean we found 50 new species in the last 25 years so our knowledge has grown exponentially we now know that really it's homo erectus is the start of homo and the problem is the species name is there and it's just too much effort to change it his surprise is surprise when you do your work how long it takes for the mutations to act or when you say it took 100000 years from say 200000 years ago for homo sapiens to

get abstract thought. at one point so the interesting thing about homo sapien is that we have here about 302200000 years ago in africa and then what happens is those waves of us coming out so there's a big wave about 100000 years ago that makes all the way over to china into southern russia and that's a species we found tall zick cetera but there's an interesting thing because there is a new species or actually it's the same species but slightly altered that then comes out at 60000 years this one more than humans or homo sapien 2.0 other than this one over much better i mean where it where we're it ok with the modern human to point spreads out an interesting lee takes over from the early homo sap eons it basically outcompetes possibly kills all the other competitors and that's a species that we're all related to so it's about 60 to 70000 years ago something

changed cognitively in homo sapien in east africa that meant that we started to cumulate knowledge quicker and quicker and quicker and that's were as species does too we're not talking the language yet because you you do criticize the interim view of linguistics arguably or these you don't believe it was a single event or chomsky suddenly thinks that homo sapien appeared and went i can think i can speak no again if you look at say chimpanzees communicating they already have communication if you look at say homo erectus they're working in large groups they were communicating i'm pretty sure that homo erectus was already using language so primitive language to organize remember this is a species that is going out hunting well maybe not generative grammar though they will get where they are going to turn because we don't the show before we get them back again to say you know space infinity will get back to us yeah well timidly all

of this evolution its impact on brains. as you talk about new theories about the fact the brains the need for it was to do with sexual interaction sexual and social interaction and the choice of partners and also this op to him no matter of 150 people within a community basically the brain is about community not isolation oh absolutely so what the ideas are about why we have such a large brain is not so we can do advanced mathematics is not me so we can understand language it is so we understand the so short situations where in it so we can basically protect ourselves in a social situation it so we can manipulate others and again the sexual bit comes in if you happen to be looking for the perfect partner you don't necessarily want the tallest the strongest the fastest you want the one who's basically most persuasive you want the one that basically looks after $150.00 people go why now i think

you're really good at hunting you should go out hunting you should be collecting berries i'm going to stay here make sure what he does everything and i'm going to control the group this is why when you ask people what is a really important sort of kalak touristic that they want in a male it sense of humor and just for anyone who wonders why they are always communicating with 150 maximum what's been the 150 on social media that works as well it does no i think and people think i've now got a 1000 friends no you haven't so the 150 is what our brains can actually deal with and 150 is people that we know lots of details about so you have some idea of their backgrounds the way they're going to react in certain situations beyond that we can go up to about 5000 people that we actually know their faces and put a name to thank you so we still have much wind in that 150 is repeated it's

christmas card lists it is church sizes it's mediæval village is all about 150 so it's a number that keeps coming up and they are not they should also given that this program talks a lot about extreme violence between humans. in that you talk about these numbers of people within communities you call them ultra social we're ultra social we are the most unlike any other and we are but we have disproportionately less violence as human beings than to any other as a living i think this is what many people not good believe well no what people don't understand is that man no male violence ok we acted violence which is you look to me strange i'm going to hate you it's so rare in human society ok so we live in london in a city of about 8000000 people ok and men are walking past each other all the time without trying to hit each other a male chimpanzee in a small social group cannot go a day without hitting somebody ok or getting annoyed ok

a lot of animals are like that because all the testosterone we as males has so many subtle ways of sizing up opponents making sure that we have some status lots of smart ways of showing who's smarter who's got more money etc lost a little showy things which then deescalate so we were really really good avoiding one on one violence so if you and i are out we will work together as a brilliant team make an abscess of the taking down mammoths ok as regularly this isn't a well let's take a mammoth let's do it once what we want them all out for has among them thank you that's over the chair we'll be back on wednesday still in the u.k. general election reporting restrictions and on the eve of the vote until then people talk about social media don't forget to subscribe to going underground future.

first ukraine leaders from russia ukraine germany and france meet in paris to tackle ukraine's internal divisions are there reasons for optimism and impeachment are the democrats secretly scheming to have trump actually really. you know world of big part of. lot and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door on the bad and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks.

for years off the will states the international antidoping agency shuts the door on taking russia over what it said was tampering with the data about. russia crisis file though saying it provided all the necessary ounces and claims it's been ignored for the authorities plan to take the decision to schools and the punishment is harsh and politicized. elsewhere the normandy foretold some underway in paris of the leaders of russia ukraine france and germany gathered to agree a road map for peace in eastern ukraine right now president putin told him his 1st ever one on one meeting with his new ukrainian counterparts.