a lot of welcome to well it's a part of helping people in need this is still the novelist's thing in their wallet but just like the resolve to make it a while the better place it's increasingly being mad with suspicion fear and even violence is it still possible to draw the line between genuine humanitarian efforts and politically or geo politically expedient do gooding to discuss that i'm now joined by frank turner a board member for doctors without borders frank it's good to talk to you thank you very much for a time thanks for the most welcome now let me start with you personally you still

practice medicine you are a general practitioner at a berlin hospital you teach humanitarian medicine and for the last i think 20 years you've been involved in various humanitarian actions around the world is it more difficult to be a humanitarian these days than it was when you just start it well it's i think each decade has its own let's say complications so in this regard it was always a difficult undertaking because you're working in very let's say a resource limited settings you're working in very risky environments you're often coming as an expert but you're not really because you don't know when you arrive so in this regard it hasn't changed so much but what became more and more in issue is of course let's say problems related to conflicts where it's not really very easy to understand who is behind what kind of action and that is of course ever growing concern for. us the less we are getting respect for our let's

say medical and humanitarian work now when doctors without borders were set up i believe in 1701 this phrase without borders didn't really carry any political or ideological meaning but i think at this point of time a border is a highly charged issue especially i think when it comes to the european union and as a deals with migrants and refugees do you see that impacting your work in any way yeah it is of course i mean in general the no borders is to say we are we think that we should not let's say only go where we allow to go but we also should try to fight for access to the people because it's where they need they deserve it's a human right also if you be taken care off and especially in conflict situations where there is no support when the health systems are failing then of course there

is a lot of need and its own mission somehow to go and it was if used to be i think 20 years ago it used to be a very popular notion both among the public and the hmong the decision makers especially in europe i mean that europe was moving to. a world without borders but clearly it's not the case anymore people in europe actually want to bring borders back in much greater matter than before well as a matter of fact we are we are seeing already we have a big border around europe now it's not amongst the different individual states so much it's on the outskirts of the european system and we see particularly the let's say most deadliest border in the world is emitted and you'd see thousands and thousands of people have been dying over the last couple of years due to not being rescued in the sea and this is of course there ever growing concern for. because we

are actively hampered also access to these places even though we have to the means we have the boats we have the capacities to medically care for these people but they try to prevent us from doing i would joke now you've been very diplomatic so far in expressing your concern and i know that you're a person and yarden as they should have been very critical of the way the european union is dealing with this issue with it ultimately have bandon ingle they are asking operations in the mediterranean sea do you think there is a way of dealing with this issue him mainly without at the same time encouraging further migration well i think the myth somehow around it that we are encouraging by just hoping people in the in the. risky situation is absolutely wrong because there have been several let's say studies who proved it completely wrong that it didn't have to happen according to being available on the sea but people were going it's just the need and if you take libya as of course one of the

departing areas and maybe putting area in the central mediterranean sea you see that people they don't have any way to go elsewhere so they have to go through the sea and if you don't rescue them in these situations a lot of people have died but i'm sure you know that there are people crossing through a ban on just libyans and their knowledge just people fleeing from war persecution there 1200000000 of people living in africa many of them in abject poverty and i'm sure not many of them where would be able to make that crossing but many. would like to do that thing i mean it's. i think it's ultimately a question of about borders but about limits do you think the humanitarian responsibility has to be balanced against other considerations economic social political and others i think we have to be very careful not to judge too much numbers because as a matter of fact if you take for instance now the situation we have

a very limited of moment of people who are even trying to cross and if you leave these people dying because of political reasons and there's no other reason to say it is just for political interests that people are drowning in the mediterranean sea we have the capacity to doing something we can save all of them and we just not doing it so it's just. negligence of our humans turn in and you main responsibility if you just look around you see that we have a very serious issue around climate change for instance more and more people cannot sustain their living anymore they're moving but usually people are moving in the regions from where the originate so there is very limited amount of people who anyway go through. let's say the european. border us let me play devil's advocate because i mean as a doctor you have to think not only about you know treating a person in the moment you have to think about how what you're doing right now will

affect his body in a way or a year from now politicians and decision makers have to think about those things as well don't they and they have to take political considerations in mind and you know that they migrate migratory issue is a major political issue in europe aren't you concerned that if europe does what's right by you it may actually empower forces and parties that are even more and if that's a call to the kind of humanitarianism that you champion. no i think actually what we're trying to do is defend what we call the humanitarian space so the area where we can still work without any political consideration just based on the human needs of the people so alleviating suffering and trying to prevent people from dying it's a very simple thing we're doing but it's very complicated and a lot of people don't like it because of political considerations but for me as a doctor it's a very clear statement i'm here to safe people's lives i don't care who it is and

why he is in this position he is now if you should buy a gun i don't care who's gun that was but i have to care for this and this is a specific responsibility of a doctor you to cure all for that but the politicians operate in a different environment and they do you have to think about the number of people they can help and don't share expect that kind of forward thinking from the decision makers i think if you're we have basic values and we should try to defend them as much as panaro if you don't you know rights and if it if you toward human rights then we have to be very serious about it we have to defend human rights because there at stake at this very moment we have to defend human to tear in this as such we have to defend the international humanitarian law and we have to defend humanity so if you talk about well if we are talking potentially about 1200000000 of people who are given you know the half of that who would want to move to the

european continent i don't very much that so many people want to leave a lot of people who are going to be pushed all the places where they're leaving but usually if you just look at it they're staying in the regions where they know how to survive somehow and where they have some kind of connections so very few people are actually making it this far and we also have to consider them one of the reasons so if you talk about long term let's say solutions when we have to find ways that people are having a decent life that they can have a life in dignity and also sustain their family life pleasant. the expense of something like that will take decades to bring about and it's a question of whether you can actually do that i mean there are there and there has been a lot of talk in the european union in investing in those areas too or indeed stemmed the floor of a canal make migrants but. so far the e.u. hasn't done that much that merican end up doing that as well. do you think there

will ever be enough resources enough political will to invest in africa to such an extent as you are advocating you know it is it is a big question i mean we are living in a very unfair world monk president of the world population has as much welts accumulated as the other 1009 percent of those who are now is this going to change i'm not sure i have no idea if my personal idea about it but as an organization we are trying to defend just what we think is the right thing so that means in the 1st place make sure that people are not suffering according to political decisions that they are not suffering according to conflicts and that we can just prevent them from dying it's as simple as that now i know that you personally took part in rescue missions in the mediterranean a your house set up an organization that was dealing with it in a. social or personal capacity and the question i have for you do you think ordinary people can still make and often impact when that governments are not

collaborating or i think in your case when they're creating deliberately creating legal hurdles as an individual i think very much i have to do what i think is right i have to defend my values if to defend my principles and if i feel the state is not doing it or quoting to what i think is the right thing then i have to stand up and say it's not good enough and as a medic of course i have to say well if you don't respect medical ethics and i have to also stand up and if as a humanitarian feel that the next to me is not respected and treated in the dignified way then i have to also stand in this regard so yes we have to do it despite that it is may be a very long term fight and we are not necessarily winning it always while not only in the training but i think the. a number of states are creating. deliberate obstacles in

a way of here doing that correct me if i'm wrong but i think the wessel that you used to operate is now. detained or arrested the in italy you had to change your flag jurisdiction a from the netherlands to germany because the netherlands didn't really want to do anything with you why do you think the resistance to what you're trying to do is so broad based because if it was just you know italy on waltz of people would understand i mean politically they would understand why that would be the reason but the netherlands' i mean yeah it is because some there is a kind of push. towards let's say disrespect of. human rights and the values we're usually defending so in this regard it's not only an issue of italy it's not only an issue of turkey greece who ever you're talking about it's an european issue as such the netherlands are part of this consorts and somehow and they make it very very difficult for seawitch in this case to maintain

its flag and the end of the shift to german flag is maybe a right move so that we can as this german organization see which can maybe address the responsibility rather to the government where they have very close to is going to make a big difference who knows we don't know but there was no possibility to maintain the flag and we also have to say other states are on the same pressure some on the populist movement is very strong and this is why we have to fight back and try to really stand up for the human values but even the one who had an ability to operate here ship here is still had to play this cat and mouse game with the authorities because many countries for refusing entry and even the when they were allowing it was always as a kind of exception rather than a policy this crime. this is almost 5 years all why do you think the ear still hasn't come up with a policy i mean whatever it is it would be

a conservative policy but why do you think it's still. being dealt on and walk off basis i think as i said before there is some more right wing populist movement who is trying to also be very vocal and so it is on the political side people are trying to take all these let's say possible voters into account and on the other hand we also see that in the eastern european part of it's not very well let's say accepted that they also have to take a certain share of this supposed burden so from our perspective it is a political crisis rather than a migration crisis of course but they're not haven't been able yet to sort of the political issues they think they will come up with a policy for the. i have no idea but we are definitely not going to give it up even if they make it more difficult we are not accepting that people are drawing only

because of political interests and we are going to fight as much as we can ok well frank we have to check and verify break for you now but they will be back in just a few moments as they changed. the. the last.

welcome back to worlds apart with frank turner a board member of dr spit out borders frank just before the break we were talking about libya that used to be not so long ago a relatively prosperous country a very friendly country towards migrants which. almost over time was turned into one big slave market and i know that humanitarian workers don't like to talk about politics but since you already have expressed your criticism of the e.u. policy i wonder why we almost never hear from organizations or from people like

yourself any criticism of what barack obama david cameron nicolas sarkozy and avi's did to libya because. nobody really talks about the the core issue here and that country for all its deficiencies used to be. a relatively ok country and that problem that we are discussing right now didn't exist to such an extent why do we never address the the core issue that created all that suffering well as a matter of fact it's not our business but we are a year and 3 of very clear we in all the conflicts where we are working all the areas we are working we have we taking a neutral position if you want to address let's say political issues you can do it only where you are not risking it at the political issue and insurance are alabama is not in power anymore he is a former president's wife can't just his say that what he did to leave it was

a crime it wasn't right because it's not our let's say expertise it's not the humanitarians who have to say what the reasons were for a conflict situation and what we're just there in because there is a political. crisis at this very moment but it's nothing to do with the policies behind it ever address the needs of the people if they are multiplied to such an extent because we live in a world that has the historically highest number of refugees and people in need can you ever how them all of them as a doctor if you don't address the political issues that are at the core all of the problem and if they're not even political at this point they're historic you need to understand why decisions are good and what decisions are not good in terms of multiplying all limiting human suffering you're right if you take it from the. general analyzed and a little point of view but what we're doing is just trying to be there when crisis

are happening so we are not looking at the causes of the crisis in the 1st place but of the consequences so we try to really be there as doctors to make sure that people are not suffering. too much and where we can save lives we want to save lives i'm a bit biased i'm sure i am but i think that a reluctance to. size was a little bit less pronounced in the case of other governments i'm specifically talking about the syrian government and the russian government as they were operating in syria and i have a question specifically on doctors without borders policy there because they are going to zation made a decision not to disclose its location is in a rabble how to areas its medical facilities and yet at the same time it did allow itself to criticize those governments for supposedly deliberately targeting medical facilities do you think that's a fair or even consistent position well in general we have to be clear we see that

over the past years more and more programs are cured due to the disrespect of international human turning law which they do but in the situation of warfare in the situation of conflict those who are really trying to support of the victims of this situation need to be protected and the opposite is happening at this very moment it's in yemen a situation that's it we saw this in so sudan in iraq we saw this in several places around the world and this is a big concern for us in syria toughened as well so to this extent it's understandable that at some point where usually you think that protection will happen because everybody knows where you work it may become really a problem because also if you're targeted then the population may not show up any more despite the medical needs the geneva conventions apply noncombatants to release the locations of medical facilities there only considered to be medical facilities if the combatants know where they are in such

a context and especially in the syrian context i'm sure you know that there was nothing sacred there nothing aflame at any pretext especially a humanitarian projects was used to malign the opponent in such a context don't you think that your organization had an obligation to your staff and to the rest of the world to play by the rules. by the rules in this case i mean the geneva conventions that put an obligation on here to disclose this facility is specifically it to protect the people and the doctors well as i said the our experience with the opus it's usually what happened in a lot of these places were that there was deliberate targeting of the facilities as such whatever was behind that used obviously the knowledge about the health facilities to somehow attack the big 6 services of people to create fear to britain to create really suffering of the populations and that is something we of course also have to put into on the scale and in this regard. yes you're right we are

playing to the geneva conventions we often are referring to them and we are also referring to international human terrain law but when it starts to really become an issue of security of all patients and own stuff then you have to make certain considerations do you should know that that security wasn't sure that because even without disclosing the locations of your medical facilities and rebel held areas they were attacked they were the doctors and patients kilkenny had that and blame the belligerence for targeting you deliberately because you obviously didn't let them know where where they should not strike well in general if it is we are respecting the geneva convention and all. its possibilities so in this regard of course it is one of the basic means where we can operate and how we can operate and of course if it's well known where we are that it is a deliberate targeting if you know that the hospital is getting even tight even

without you formally notifying me the other side where you are in in general terms we're doing it. in all the places where it's possible but they've wasn't the case in the many rebel held areas in syria. as i mentioned before because there was very serious considerations why the risk was much higher i don't want to get into the argument but your position now is that we are not we don't have to notify them to protect our staff but at the same time everybody knows where we are saying they strike us it's their fault now we have to be very clear what is the reason and what is a consequence the reason is that there is no respect for what is usually the geneva convention it was an international humanitarian law and as a consequence of that you may have to make decisions which are not. good ones because usually you want exactly the opposite but if you feel that what you're doing is going to cause more serious threats to the people you're working with in the patients then you may have to take different decisions i know that you've been

sounding the alarm about they have broken off international humanitarian protections not only in syria but it pretty much everywhere around the world what are the main factors contributing to that well it's in all the cases it's political let's say thinking behind that so in this regard it is from our perspective yeah. just a tactical warfare idea strategy somehow to make sure that people who are supposed to be in areas where where you want to have influence but they're really getting the troubles that also basic services on the function of anymore but is. it's a very very strategic way of looking into or using hospitals ambulances as deliberate targeting targets for for military attacks or using them as a warfare tactic because i think one of the most notable case is

a fusing medical professionals for. you know geo political military again it was a record of the thing in pakistan when they say i designed it's own suppose that a medical operation to hunt for osama bin laden and i know the vaccination activist afterwards in pakistan were killed but i wonder if the. if the damage is far more broad based because. i think in many war zones that i worked in there was a perception that if any international humanitarian organizations arrogance nation comes in if me a service as a cover for either the americans or asama some of the. other powers that are trying to. do something against the powers in that land do you encounter that and the feel that you as a doctor. ah perceived as somebody who maybe may have some other

area. yeah as a matter of fact we always have to talk with everybody explain exactly what we're doing how we're doing and why we are doing it and this is a basic let's say condition of work so in this reality it is awful but there is a disrespect in some respects and you mentioned the killing of osama bin laden and it was the use of an absolute abuse of the let's say the humanitarian cause a medical cost also and we were very straight in our statements there after and as a consequence we also had. to be even more explicit in explaining all in all the context where we are what we are doing how we are doing things and still we are seeing that in some of the places a lot of mistrust acute according to the top and now we have only a few minutes left and i do want to ask you about the ball epidemic.

in africa in this case in the democratic republic of congo a few months ago the world health organization and als that the current outbreak represents a public health emergency off international concern why do you our viewers in russia in germany in the united states have to worry about that and do they have to worry about that well as a as a matter of fact we have to go a little bit back into the history of nobody was really very much interested in tour. around this disease and it happened every now and then and it seemed to be and kind of it to make situations since long and doctors without borders one of the few medical organization has been engaged since long and and 2 dozen 15 we had a big outbreak which was west african related and it only got into a real concern of the west somehow. when there was supposedly potential but it could spread to what's europe to what's the us and it was

a very late wake up call in this regard and. now well we see the consequences of that now it's a quicker response we have from a good possibilities we haven't had at this times we have possibilities to vaccinate nowadays people but still it is by far not what we what would be needed and a proper response i know that during the previous outbreak you were in. treating people do you plan on going back to africa at the moment i'm not planning because. i'm just a board member of a mess of this very moment and working in my private home town so i have very limited time capacities but it may be that some time but i'm going back into a medical mission business and ok frank whatever you do stay safe thank you very much for spending some time with and thanks to encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and. same place same time here on one of the hard.

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this hour on r t the conservative party secures the majority in the british parliament as labor suffers in the polls and a highly disappointing night for them our live coverage from westminster kicks off in less than a minute from now. plus in other news later this hour at least $71.00 soldiers were killed in a militant attack on a military base in exposing a deep crisis for french foreign policy in its former colony. and you choose steps up its ante houseman's crusade but in rages users who accuse the video sharing platform censorship.