yes nuke hoops as well speaking about pretty killer ethnic groups your book the jurors century god the national jewish book award but if you look for example at the reviews at amazon there are lots of reviews but almost every reviewer calls your book controversial and i would have to i think there are hasn't been enough of the public discussion about your very interesting thesis so i wouldn't stand why the germans for example would be sort of tip toeing around the issue or trying to avoid it altogether but why would the americans feel any hesitation at around the jewish question well actually the book was translated into german and the with some discussions in germany and reviews. but of course it is controversial because i discuss the role of jews in the modern world i discuss their success their overrepresentation in the most important

occupations in the modern world. in revolutionary movements what's what's remarkable really about them is that they were in addition to being over represented in key modern professions they were equally over represented in the world of capitalism. now use the banking and so on just to conclude briefly on the one hand and various anti-capitalist radical movements on the other including both of us along with other road movements and those observations. are all beautifully controversial. in your work you often rely on matter forests as a vehicle for the historical narrative and i think in the jewish century in particular you're talking about jews not only as an ethnic group but more so as

a matter for for modernity moreover you start and and your book with the prediction that we will all become jews at some point of time. what do you mean no i don't really see that we will become jews i'm saying that we that being modern. means being in some ways similar to. the traditional jewish way of acting so in other words you from a there are nitty is a bug being urban mobile occupation the flexible physically for studious articulate and soul and then jews were the 1st moderns because that was their specialization sperm just to be clear that applies not only historically it is that applied not only to the jews but also to the armenians to the chinese to the germans to their roman and many obdurate roster of people who had to be more

adaptable more flexible. maybe taking bigger risks as well but i think your argument right now is that in this day and age that applies pretty much to everybody regardless of whether your and they are if or an expatriate it's used to apply to groups as you say to mostly diaspora groups that specialized in service provision as opposed to food production vs intermediate groups that specialized in dangerous ph. and jews were very prominent among the prominent in europe but they were in the only ones and there are certain traits that they all tend to have in common and those are the traits that are now becoming universal. and so they tend to be more proficient at things we associate with but then it is so it's not all about metaphors and symbols it's really about a particular

a particular way of life particular ethnic groups specializing in particular thing . things that not seen. in something. good morally valuable by the neighbors but things that are that are indispensable in the world today now the jews in europe were treated differently than other ethnic minorities there was a lot of discrimination but i think the discrimination of jews how its own particularities and they had to live in ghettos they were often precluded from holding regular jobs and forced into last socially desirable occupations. do you attribute the success of the jews the fact that today they hope

they are overrepresented in many a well paid socially desirable positions do you attribute to the inherent interpret neural nature or is it to some extent a function of the circumstance in other words do they have to credit the process persecution of that ancestors for their success to date or is the premiere of the persecution he had to meet the boat specialization jews have been specializing in these things as they said they forced to specialize or was it sort of there is how to reverse the among scholars about that. but it wasn't entirely or even primarily about force about exclusion they were excluded mostly because they specialized in things that were viewed with suspicion and often scorned by the surrounding society in other words if it is morally suspect to

engage in the use of the so called in any operations involving money interests in particular. if it is dangerous. to do you with the body. healing which would lead be good medicine. from a very non prestigious occupation in the polluting dangerous occupation to one of the most prestigious and will remunerate in today's world. mediation of all kinds the or we all of these things that were in the course not being seen as native jews themselves didn't consider themselves need to all those things resulted in their persecution but also helps them perform their function in your book you often refer to america he who is of course the roman god for trade interprete no ship skill but

also thieving and historically your success. was perceived as my last. game mentality is really hard wired at the inn in humans were there is outsiders always perceived as taking something away from their host societies or worse some of them more successful than others in cultivating the sands of goodwill in the local community well they were certainly seen is. morally suspect all of them because they engaged in things that peers and considered dangerous unpleasant and maybe a little bit i mean well in the end of it i'm not sure that's the but the again this is prison economies be on the various forms of reciprocity traditional food producers engage in various forms of exchange. people who are

merchants who do with money which is something that few peasants have a clear conception of arsene is. seeds they make money out of nothing right it's one thing when you devote yourself to cultivating the soil growing crops in the north and people who somehow live off different kinds of exchange who create wills out of nothing out of thin air or out of say in there which is actually an expression in the you just might have to question is very politically incorrect but i think you're still the best scholars. do you think and to some a tism they perpetrated motivations for it the imagery the intensity of it was it in any way different from other forms of ethnic hatred. yes and

no it wasn't different in that there are other groups some of those we have mentioned that were in the same position that used to perform and sometimes still perform the same functions and so host societies view them in the same way so it is to the stewards jews in europe are very similar to added to toward indians in the a staffer of syrians or lebanese in west africa or the caribbean. chaney's in southeast asia and souls in that sense it's not unique to jewish history but if you look at europe within the any of those regions and compared to its towards towards these intermediary groups compared to other neighbors of course you see and you know all of your viewers we all know more or less what that means right when. people think of the neighbors in certain ways if we stink of ukrainian folklore for

example right then poles are represented in one way muscovites represented in a certain way and then jews are represented differently or may be seen negatively but choose jews assume negatively in a particular way and we can talk about this if you are heard you say that they need to semitism in europe in the 19th and later in the 20th century a was to some extent a response to what's called jewish emancipation that is the end of the pale of settlement policies and that is actually a pretty chilling idea dogg. progressive social change the morally right change can ultimately lead to a backlash that would give us something like the call the cost i mean there was there was traditional anti-semitism dislike what it was intensified and there was a intensify that changed or perhaps it was in some ways you're right it was

intensive and when jews lived their traditional. occupations and moved into the center of national or social life and became identified with success. we're seeing is sometimes is monopolizing certain very desirable patients or basis is. rivals competitors particularly according to parasites or even somebody if somebody wants to take some up there is that there is traditional for any peers and you need merchant is a parasite now when that do receives an education moves into the national capital leaves on the street the you can actually see that much more vividly and the contrast between you and him is much more painful it's different it becomes it acquires the new shape it looks different. and of course jews become visible.

in seaver's that are associated with prestige and influence in even greater degree in other words when you see that so many of them are among journalists are among lawyers you know that what you gives rise to this conspiracy of this area one of the jews running unfairly running to professor we have to take a very short break now we'll be back in just a few moments stay tuned. during the great depression which must remember that it was mostly family were poor people and there wasn't it was bad you know much worse objectively that day but there was an expectation that things were going to get better. there was

a real sense of hope. there isn't. today today's america where shaped my the turn principles of concentration of wealth and power. reduced democracy attack soloed. engineer election manufacture consent and other principle holds according to. one set of rules for the rich officer several sure. that's what happens when you put her into the. narrow sector of will switch rule is dedicated to increasing power for chills just as you'd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the modern civilization of america.

welcome back to worlds apart but professor of russian history at the university of california berkeley professor is the skin you doubt live in the united states you teach at berkeley where i'm from what i heard the guarding against social styria typing is pretty vegetal and making jokes about the jews and money can cost want a career and yet you how have a whole book based on the thesis is that jews are overrepresented in look for it if and socially desirable occupations did average gets you in trouble like a democrat. or you can of course make jokes. but it's

better to be careful but no no i have not been in trouble though there were people . who were unhappy with what they have to say. there were various criticisms some of them very strong i would say accusations well perhaps one reason for that is the book was published in 2004 before the age of campus outrage but i think it reads very contemporary today especially in the light of the current immigration debate in the united states the fact that america or at least half of america talks about the votes for national ism trump style nationalism what does that tell you what do you mean vote for them well i would claim that trump has a nationalist policies and half of the america support him i think tom the years ago 15 years ago it would be unimaginable gratian the way it's being discussed are

you mean that in that sort of the united states i mean nationalism has been dominant in the us from the beginning to see how we differ and i mean certainly national pride patriotism flag empathy man was there is our destiny those things were never discussed in terms i'm just sad tickled to make gratian immigration was thought to be a contributing factor to that kind of nationalism and now it's discussed increasingly discussed as an on demining factor for the well off when she literally fiercely recently right all half of the 20th century immigration was seen as potentially dangerous and new immigrants who are in the early 20th century seen with suspicion myth with suspicion. including jewish immigrants and so this ideology that distinctions among immigrants. no it's

legitimate is new not. realty really new so you can view trump spall this is a reaction to sincerely a fairly new policy new ideology speaking about nationalism in they're trying to censure of the jews god the historic chance to build their own. nation state and i think they're. you know after to try their hand at nationalism is increasingly looking like an iron fist because of its neighbors that's my personal opinion they don't have to agree with that but i wonder if. how it ties to the thesis of your book when the whole world is converting a cold audience as you say into mccurry and isn't aren't jews or at least some jews in israel doing the opposite of course there was the point of creating the state of israel. just because you have snow there everyone but more and more.

societies it's named groups moving to a word when there need to be coming in some ways. more jewish jews were or some jews zionist. we're trying to become what i call up a loony and. by returning to the land. becoming farmers having their own nation state. in the soil before the jewish century you made quite a splash with your work on the soviet athletic and national policies challenging. at the time the common american view of the u.s.s.r. was a prisoner of nations i think you. actually show the soviets or the early the early soviets at least celebrated and encouraged diversity for

a very pragmatic and very ideological reason i wonder what is the main difference between how the u.s. ceasar and the united states at that time approached the issue of diversity as you say the sort of us promoted yes nick particularism created the federation over its nuclear defined republics. and in the united states the ideal is the milton cause ideology reigned supreme leader on it was. culturalism. affirmative action. in other policies were developed that were quite similar to what was being done in the soviet union you mentioned a couple of that or images that matter for is that americans used to describe their . national policy for as the melting pot most recently it's mistake you use the

matter for all of communal apartment for the soviet approach of communal apartment with private rooms and shared bathroom and shared kitchen. does it still apply to more than de russia is that how russia deals with the athletic and national question of this world is not quite. the russia is different from all the other post communist nations. in that it is multinational state there are a ministry to the units within the russian federation that of that are defined it's unlikely. and at least in the official rick it is common to talk about the peoples of russia not just the people of russia this is quite different from as i said all the polish communist state which are. ideologically mono yes think so russia is peculiar but

of course it's no longer engaged in tense promotion of yes nick difference. now when i was thinking about the matter for as the best i could come up with was a community garden the way it's practiced in us urban areas where you are given the plot of land to cultivate and i like it because both for the soviet union and for the modern day russia this tie between territory and the thing is very important of course people can move around even though social mobility in russia is much lower than in many other western countries but this notion of firsts mall homeland within the larger country is still very important why do you think the russians a so attached to this into a linkage between the city and territory because i mean one would argue that in in this day and age you know we are all citizens of the world but the russians are still are talking about russians being different that were i mean in some ways most

nationalist traditional nationalists. well tribalism is the book being attached to your own land right it's all over traditional myths. it's in the book of exodus and in the bible right you do you there is a part in this promised land but what is different of course is that today's russia has inherent it from the soviet union preexisting. will form. institutionalized its nuclear defined units and it's obviously politically unwise to miss with those right as we can easily imagine thinking of the north caucuses tatarstan the bush court to stun you kooky and so on and so forth the door beautifully would be. would not be politically wise to

try to deprive those areas of the of their status so i don't think that it is a particular attachment to the principle i think it's just political realism that this is these a preexisting units. and so one has to deal with them now you mentioned the war at multiculturalism and. the way russia the russians really dislike the idea of the way it's practice in there was there's a lot of free to killing over you know about you know bring large numbers of people from faraway lands settling down and gallows and i mean to some extent it's it's funny that the russians would take an issue with that because russia now there was a mourner after make or monocultural state why do you think the russians what is it do you think in the western notion of malta culturalism that i'm settles the russians so much you find distin you correctly you're referring to various.

forms of ethnic representation well racial reshow quotas or the whole family even racial quotas but nation building i mean respecting diversity but also creating these sounds of that to be our one nation do you russia and the was dealing with it in the same way i'm not sure to because it depends on what you mean again because certainly on the one hand is nick nationalism is a play to the dominant group is increasing we do with it in my eyes in the west. multiculturalism is the policy of promoting minority groups and their cultures is very important. in russia in some ways multiculturalism is there

was a big part of the soviet soviet experience. and i'm not sure because i mean i've certainly heard people read. multiculturalism but if they mean by that artificial quotas and so on there you know for finance against me you talk recy. is there what you mean well are i think most people take an issue with bringing a lot of with down control migration essentially bring a lot of outsiders into your but that's not multiculturalism i mean there is obviously in that i've heard all sorts of criticism here. of. until americans ball that's the generally inviting immigrants and that is counterproductive and dangerous and i think that they're the difference so times

are good you know the multiculturalism this is just the one form i wouldn't i don't think that would be referred to mostly in the west as multiculturalism it's related to multiculturalism is that we are expected to respect. different cultures and consider them. equal. or is on our own or allowed it and but it's no longer legitimate. to clean primacy for your with the host one you need to have culture in russia it's still perfectly ok and so i think a lot of russians see contemporary western policy is is suicidal. counterproductive. and and so on so if that's what you mean but multicultural is there's definitely a difference that i can. and that these i think related to the to something

that you mentioned before the assumption that different ethnic groups including the dominant ones have their legitimate claims have their territory have their cultural . cultural values treasures whatnot and they're expected to defend and so what is happening in the west is seen as a form of a render a form of well. thank you for eliminating that for us we have to leave it there i appreciate your coming over thank you very much. keep this conversation going in our social media pages for me and the team we hope to syria again same place same time in a while to part. join

me every thursday on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to us from the world of politics sport i'm showbusiness i'll see you then. in the troubled 19 seventies a group of killers rampage through parts of northern ireland that was coordinated loyalist attacks to take the population of tens of thousands were forced to flee their homes come up with strike and put these attacks was a p.r. you see the police actually took part in the attacks so instead of preventing it they were active participants in the burning of full streets in belfast at the time more than a 100 innocent civilians were unloaded as the review can seniors and we found out

more i was surprised about the extent and of the crates which the pollution was involved in some of those cases that killers would lead to be named. i think you. very very top i think. the washington. politicians. give the go ahead. not up. to. that up.

from the possibility of amending the russian constitution to the doping scandal from e.u. sanctions to impeachment proceeding stateside the russian president's annual q. and a session wraps up in moscow spending more than 4 hours. u.s. tech giants are being sued for allegedly abetting in the deaths of children and cobalt lines in the democratic republic of the congo parents of those killed say the companies have the means to her about the dogs. and while democrats vote to impeach trump the latest polls show the president's popularity has in fact been on the rise since the whole saga began but the commander in chief himself smelling blood in the water.