the groups your book the jewish century god the national jewish book award but if you look for example at the reviews at amazon there are lots of reviews but almost every reviewer calls your book controversial and i would have to i think there hasn't been enough of the public discussion about your very interesting thesis so i wouldn't stand why the germans for example would be sort of keep toying around the issue or trying to avoid it altogether but why would the americans feel any hesitation at around the jewish question well actually the book was translated into german and the with some discussions in germany and reviews. but of course it is controversial because i discuss the role of jews in the modern world i discuss this excess the over representation in the most important. occupations in the modern world. in

revolutionary movements what's what's remarkable really about them is that they were in addition to being over represented in key modern professions they were equally over represented in. the world of capitalism now use the banking and so on just to conclude briefly on the one hand and various anti-capitalist radical movements on the other including bolshevism along with other road movements and those observations. are all beautifully controversial. in your work you often rely on matter forests as a vehicle for the historical narrative and i think in the jewish century in particular you're talking about jews not only as an ethnic group but more so as a matter for for modernity moreover you start and and your book with the prediction

that we will all become jews at some point of time. what do you mean no i don't really see that we will become jews i'm saying that we. that being modern means being in some ways similar to. the traditional jewish way of acting so in other words you from a there are nitty is a bug being urban mobile. the flexible physically for studious articulate and so on then jews were the 1st moderns because that was their specialization sperm just to be clear that applies not only historically it is that applied not only to the jews but also to the armenians to the chinese to the germans today roma and many obdurate rasper of people who had to be more adaptable

more flexible. maybe taking bigger risks as well but i think your argument right now is that in this day and age that applies pretty much to everybody regardless of whether your and they are if or an expatriate it's used to apply to groups as you say to mostly diaspora groups that specialized in service provision as opposed to food production if you use intermediaries groups that specialized in dangerous ph. and jews were very prominent among them prominent in europe but they were in the only ones and there are certain traits that they all tend to have in common and those are the traits that are now becoming universal. and so they tend to be more proficient at things we associate with but then it is so it's not all about metaphors and symbols it's really about a particular a particular way of life particular ethnic groups specializing in particular thing

. things that not seen. in something. good morally valuable by the neighbors but things that are that are indispensable in the world today now the jews in europe were treated differently than their acne minorities there was a lot of discrimination but i think the discrimination of jews how its own particularities and they had to live in ghettos they were often precluded from holding regular jobs and forced into last socially desirable occupations. do you attribute the success of the jews the fact that today they hope they are overrepresented in many a well paid socially desirable positions do you attribute to the inherent

interprete neural nature or is it to some extent a function of the circumstance in other words do they have to credit the process persecution of the ancestors for their success today or is the premiere of the persecution he had to meet the boat specialization jews have been specializing in these things as they said they forced to specialize or was it sort of there is how it's reverse among scholars about that. but it wasn't entirely or even primarily about force about exclusion they were excluded mostly because they specialized in things that were viewed with suspicion and often scorned by the surrounding society in other words if it is morally suspect to engage in using be so called in any operations involving money interests in

particular. if it is dangerous. to do you with the body. healing which would lead to be good medicine. from a very non prestigious occupation in the polluting dangerous occupation to one of the most prestigious and will remunerate in today's world. mediation of all kinds the or we all of these things that were in the course not being seen as native jews themselves didn't consider themselves need to all those things resulted in their persecution but also help them perform the function in your book you often refer to mercury who is of course the roman god for trade interprete no ship skill but also thieving and historically your success was perceived

as my last 0 sum game mentality is really hard wired at the inn in humans were there is outsiders always perceived as taking something away from their host societies or were some of them more successful than others in cultivating the sands of goodwill in the local community well they were certainly seen is. morally suspect all of them because they engaged in things that peers and considered dangerous unpleasant and maybe 100 a little bit i mean well in the interview i'm not sure that's the but the again this is bisan economies beast on the various forms of reciprocity traditional food producers engage in various forms of exchange of people who are

merchants who do with money which is something that few peasants have a clear conception of arsene is. seeds they make money out of nothing right it's one thing when you devote yourself to cultivating the soil growing crops in the north and people who somehow live off different kinds of exchange who create wills out of nothing out of thin air or out of say in there which is actually an expression in the you just might have to question is very politically incorrect but i think you're still the best scholars. do you thing. they perpetrated motivations for it the imagery the intensity of it was it in any way different from other forms of ethnic hatred. yes and no it wasn't different in that there are other groups some of those we have mentioned that were in the same

position that used to perform and sometimes still perform the same functions and so host societies view them in the same way so it is to the stewards jews in europe are very similar to added to toward indians in the a staffer of syrians or lebanese in west africa or the caribbean. chaney's and southeast asia insoles in that sense it's not unique to jewish history but if you look at europe within the any of those regions and compared to it's towards towards these intermediary groups compared to other neighbors of course you see and you know all of your viewers we all know more or less what that means right when. people think of the neighbors in certain ways if we stink of ukrainian folklore for example right then poles are represented in one way muscovites that represented in

a certain way and then jews are represented differently or may be seen negatively but choose jews as you negatively in a particular way and we can talk about this if you are heard you say that they need to semitism in europe in the 19th and later in the 20th century a was to some extent a response to what's called jewish emancipation that is the end of the pale of settlement policies and that is actually a pretty chilling idea. progressive social change the morally right change can ultimately lead to a backlash that would give us something like the color cost i mean there was there was traditional anti-semitism dislike what it was intensified and there was a intensify that changed or perhaps it was in some ways you're right it was intensifying when jews lived their traditional.

occupations and moved into the center of national or social life and became identified with success. sometimes is monopolizing certain very desirable. or basis is. rivals competitors particularly if you're going to parasites or even somebody if somebody wants to take some up there is there is traditional for any piers and you need merchant is a parasite now when that jew receives an education and moves into the national camps he leaves on your street that you can actually see that much more vividly and the contrast between you and him is much more painful it's different it becomes it acquires the new shape it looks different. and of course jews become visible.

in seaver's that are associated with. influence even greater degree in other words when you see that so many of them are among journalists are among lawyers and you know that what you gives rise to this conspiracy this year you won't the jews running unfairly are running to professor we have to take a very short break now we'll be back in just a few moments stay tuned. well it finally happened donald trump has been impeached by the house of representatives in complete opposition to what the founders envisioned the articles voted on were along party lines it is highly unlikely the senate will vote to remove the.

president from office so what is the point of this entire exercise. over the school hoops it has been absolutely true with davis so it's a behavior that appears even in death and going babies even if you've never heard or seen love to you will love if you're ticals by your parents. and then we learn how to use this in a more complex way i'm one of the things that we learn is to how to join in with love to contagiously to love and somebody else loves even if you don't know why they're laughing. welcome back to worlds apart with professor of russian history at the university of california berkeley professor you doubt live in the united states you teach at

berkeley where i'm from what i heard the guarding against social styria typing is pretty vegetal and making jokes about the jews and money can cost want a career and yet you how have a whole book based on the thesis is that jews are overrepresented in look for it if and socially desirable occupations did it ever gets you in trouble look at demichelis. know well you can of course make jokes. but it's better to be careful but no no i have not been in trouble though there were people who were unhappy with what they have to say. there were various criticisms some of them very strong i would say accusations well perhaps one reason for that as the book was published in 2004 before the age of campus outrage but i think it reads very contemporary today especially in the light of the

current immigration debate in the united states the fact that america or at least half of america. talks about the votes for national ism trump style nationalism what does that tell you. where you mean votes from the left i'm well i would claim that trump has a nationalist policies and half of the america support him i think tammy years ago 15 years ago it would be unimaginable gratian the way it's being discussed are you mean that in that sort of the united states i mean nationalism has been dominant in the us from the very beginning just what are we defining i mean certainly national pride patriotism flag empathy meant is our destiny those things were never discussed in terms i'm just sad tickled to make gratian immigration was thought to

be a contributing factor to that kind of nationalism and now it's discussed increasingly discussed as an on demining factor for the well off when she was actually in fear only recently right all half of the 20th century immigration was seen as potentially dangerous and new immigrants were in the early 20th century seen with suspicion myth with suspicion. including jewish immigrants and so this ideology that distinctions among immigrants are not legitimate is new not. relative really new so you can view trump spall this is as a reaction to sensually a fairly new policy new ideology speaking about nationalism in they're trying to censure of the jews god the historic chance to build their own. nation state and i think there. you know after to try their hand at

nationalism is increasingly looking like an iron fist because of its neighbors that's my personal opinion the you don't have to agree with that but i wonder if. how it ties to the thesis of your book when the whole world is converting a cold audience as you say into mccurry and isn't aren't jews or at least some jews in israel doing the opposite of course there was the point of creating the state of israel. just because perhaps now the everyone but more and more. societies ethnic groups move moving toward worked there into becoming in some ways. more jewish jews were or some jews zionists were trying to become what i called up a loony and. by returning to the land. becoming farmers

having their own nation state. in the soil before the jewish century you made quite a splash with your work on they saw it after nick and national policies challenging . at the time the common american view of the u.s.s.r. was a prisoner of nations i think you. actually show the soviets or the early the early soviets at least celebrated and encouraged diversity for a very pragmatic and very ideological reason i wonder what is the main difference between how the u.s.s.r. and the united states at that time approached the issue of diversity as you say the sort of units promoted yes nick particularism created the federation of its nuclear defiance republics. and in the united states the ideal is the milton point ideology reigned supreme later on it was a mile to

a culturalism. affirmative action. in other policies. were developed that were quite similar to what was being done in the soviet union you mentioned a couple of that or images that matter for us that americans use to describe their . national policy for as the melting pot most recently it's mistake you use the matter for all of our communal apartment for the soviet approach of communal apartment with private rooms and shared bathroom and shared kitchen. does it still apply to more than day russia is that how russia deals with the athlete and national question the world is not quite over that russia is different from all the other post communist nations. in that it is

a multinational state there are a ministry to the units within the russian federation there that are different and it's unlikely. and that least in the official rick it is common to talk about the peoples of russia not just the people of russia this is quite different from as i said all the other post communist states which are. ideologically mono yes think so russia is peculiar but of course it's no longer engaged in tense promotion of yes nick difference. now when i was thinking about the matter for is the best i could come up with was a community garden the way it's practiced in us urban areas where you are given the plot of land to cultivate and i like it because both for the soviet union and for the modern day russia this tie between territory and the thinness it is very

important of course people can move around even though social mobility in russia is much lower than in many other western countries but this notion of firsts mall homeland within the larger country is still very important why do you think the russians a saw attached to this into a linkage between the city and territory because i mean one would argue that in in this day and age you know we are all citizens of the world but the russians are still are talking about russians being different that were i mean in some ways most nationalism traditional nationalist or tribalism is the book being attached to your own land right and it's all over traditional myths. it's in the book of exodus in the bible right you do you there is a part in his promised land but what is different of course is that today's

russia has inherent it from the soviet union preexisting. will form. institutionalized yes nuclear defined units and it's obviously politically unwise to miss with those right as we can easily imagine thinking of the north caucuses tatarstan the bush court to stand and so on and so forth the door beautifully would be. would not be politically wise to try to deprive those theories of the of their status so i don't think that it is a particular attachment to the principle i think it's just a political realist that this is these a preexisting units. and so one has to deal with them now you mentioned the word multiculturalism and. the way russia the russians really dislike the

idea the way it's practice in there was there's a lot of free to killing over you know about you know bring large numbers of people from faraway lands settling down and gatos and i mean to some extent it's it's funny that the russians would take an issue with that because russia now there was a mourner athletic or monocultural state why do you think the russians what is it do you think in the western notion of malta culturalism that i'm settles the russians so much if i understand you correctly you're referring to various. forms of its nuclear presentation well ratio reshow quotas or the whole family even racial quotas but nation building i mean respecting diversity but also creating these sounds of that to be our one nation. do you russia and the west deal with it in the same way i'm not sure to because it depends on what you

mean again because certainly on the one hand it's nick nationalism is a play to the dominant group is increasing we do with it in my eyes in the west. multiculturalism is the policy of promoting minority groups and their cultures is very important. in russia. in some ways multiculturalism is there was a big part of the soviet soviet experience. and i'm not sure because i mean i've certainly heard people read a q. list and multiculturalism but if they mean by that artificial quotas and so on you know for finance against me you talk recy. is that what you

mean well i i think most people take an issue with bringing a lot of with down control migration essentially bringing a lot of outsiders in but that's not multiculturalism i mean there is obviously in that i've heard all sorts of criticism here. of. the uncle americans of all this to be generally inviting immigrants and that you'd seen as counterproductive and dangerous and i think that there the difference so times are just you know the multiculturalism this is just the one form i wouldn't i don't think that would be referred to mostly in the west is multiculturalism it's related to multiculturalism is that we are expected to respect or different cultures and consider them. equal nor is on our own or allowed it and but it's no longer legitimate. to

clean primacy for your with the host. culture in russia it's still perfectly ok and so i think a lot of russians see contemporary western paul this is suicidal. counterproductive. and and so once if that's what you mean by multicultural is there is definitely a difference that i can see. and that these i think related to the 2 something that you mentioned before the assumption there are different ethnic groups including the dominant ones have their legitimate claims have their territory have their cultural. cultural values treasures whatnot and they are expected to defend them and so what is happening in the west is seen as a form of render their form of suicide well professor thank you for eliminating

that for us we have to leave it there i appreciate your coming over initiative much encourage our viewers to keep this conversation going in our social media pages as for me and the team we hope to syria again same place same time on worlds apart. during the great depression which i'm old mr remember there was and most of my family were unemployed working class and it wasn't it was bed you know much worse

objective listen today but there was an expectation of the things were going to get better. there was a real sense of hopefulness there isn't today today's america where shape by the 10 principles of concentration of wealth and power. reduced democracy attack solo debt engineer elections manufacture consent and other principles according to no on. one set of rules for the rich offices that arose from poor. that's what happens when you put her into the hands of a narrow sector of will switch will is dedicated to increasing power for itself just as you'd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the modern civilization of america.

what politicians do so. they put themselves on the line and they get accepted over checked. so when you want to be president. or some want to be us. that's why the press is allied with the 43 in the morning can't be good. i'm interested always in the waters in the house. i sit. in a world of big partisan movie lot and conspiracy it's time to wake to be deeper to hit the stories that made stream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter we need to stop slamming the door. and shouting past each other. it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the troops the time is now for watching closely watching the hawks.

one person is killed and 5 are injured in the shooting need the federal security service building in central moscow. last minute attempt to disrupt russian gas transit c. your u.s. senators have warned a swiss company that crippling sanctions would put it out of business if it doesn't stop almost completed stream saying pipeline and scotland for many moves to seek another independence referendum after the scottish national party made big gains in the u.k.'s recent general election plus.