worlds apart their minions like to say that this on the won't always stay behind the cloud implying that the suffering of their ancestors and the crumbling autumn an empire will sooner or later be recognised as genocide but a century later it can be squashed for historic truth and earthly justice after be divorced from contemporary politics well to discuss that i'm now joined by maura down lecturer in middle eastern south asian and african studies at columbia university professor more again it's good to talk to you welcome to the show thank you for having me now i'm sure you would agree with me that the american armenians will remember this december as a major landmark as both u.s. house and the u.s. senate have now recognized the massacres of their mean eons in the early 20th century ass genocide is there anything more to it though than just a symbolic victory. as you mentioned this is

a significant month for our mean americans but not just i mean americans i believe that this is significant. you know these have been a few significant weeks for armenians around the world who have been following clause closely these developments i remember growing up in lebanon myself and following these discussions in the united states as they were happening. as you mentioned this is significant and at the same time it is clearly cannot be divorced from the current situation on the ground the symbolic aspect of this is important but i believe that these resolutions also go beyond the symbolism you mentioned that this is not just a symbolic event but this was passed as in the form of simple resolutions which are known by adding and i assume no one executive will what exactly do you think.

passing of these documents is going to achieve in practical terms our part from perhaps raising present on present day are the ones blood pressure there are a few ways in which these are important so for the longest time in the united states whatever the issue of the armenian genocide that has come up on matters small and and and less small the issue of the fact that there is no congressional recognition of the crime or there is no federal recognition of the crime has been used against any for any form any effort to meaningfully commemorate the genocide the national level to give one example the library of congress which is the you know one of the largest libraries in the world does not list genocide as a crime and listed as army massacres and the reason for that is there is no congressional recognition more significantly there have been several lawsuits filed in particular in california but also elsewhere where the reason one of the

important impediments for these lawsuits to move forward pertaining to the army and genocide has been the fact that there is no recognition into united states of this crime so i do believe that although these resolutions are nonbinding as you mention they also carry a lot of significant weight and i'm not even talking about additional dimensions like education creating awareness etc now i mentioned the president to go on and he's already threatened to shut down the interlake airbase which costs the u.s. nuclear warheads and it is threats like this that prevented previous american presidents from throwing their full support behind the genocide recognition even though some of them like i think president obama seem to you jane you know you believe in if where does president trump stand on this while it is i would like you know over the past particular over the past week there has been a lot of speculation about president trump's position particularly some media outlets. the b.b.c.

and others have reported as if president trump refuses to acknowledge the army genocide. what has been what we know as far as the administration is concerned is that the administration has not changed its position and the position of the administration has been and it is reflected on every year in their april 24th statement has been that this is one of the greatest crimes off the 20th century more than a 1000000 a half our means have been killed all kinds of other words have been used however the term genocide has been avoided as you pointed to one of your articles day they have been at a number of resolutions like these before but not of them actually reach the floor usually collapsing on depression from the white house the fact that the trump administration allowed these to go that far is that aside that it cares about their immediate issue or that it doesn't give a hoot. well i think there's there's

a different way of looking at this and it's a following right. india aftermath of recent developments in the context of u.s. turkey relations which are at a low point. what has happened is that there has been the usual for the house resolution the usual pressure that comes from the administration. was not really as political for a number of reasons one is practical right the house was dominated by a democratic majority so the white house most likely don't want to fight a battle that it knew is not going to win at the same time it's important to note that in the senate it was a different situation you do have a republican majority and the white house did try you know twice to stop it 3 times to stop it and then at some point. that was not tenable either for a couple of reasons one is that. this is not. 2000. this is not the 1990 s.

this is not a period where you know the scholarship awareness of the armenian genocide nationally and internationally has reached this level so it's very difficult to really for congressman for senators to come out and say you know what you know is there are there are we don't know the history we don't you know so that that those days are gone i heard you say that this issue has long been turned into a political bargaining chip to be used by both the americans and the turks and you actually suggested that washington quote has exploited and weaponized armenian genocide resolutions t. extract concessions from. their friends who do you think is gaining and who do you think is gaining watch from these particular resolutions there typically was a veto for lack of a better term here against resolutions recognizing the genocide because of the united states and the circulations and the fact that turkey is considered to be

an important ally what happened over the past couple of months is that that veto became untenable for a number of reasons on the ground which essentially created the possibility for this resolution to pass in a congress in the house and the senate that already has been very open to acknowledging darlene genocide and constantly been forced to defer to the president on issues of foreign policy know who benefits most on this i believe that 1st and foremost i believe that justice and truth for the army and genocide in general a more open confrontation with the past is the 1st beneficiary however it's important to realize that this is not happening in vacuum there is a political context and political consequences for this you mentioned the truth essentially is a beneficiary but there are also some suggestions that congressional leaders. has

the resolutions as a bit of a ratchet beautician for anchor is going to have with the offense if in northern syria if that's indeed the case isn't that enough wrong to the memory of those who perished in the massacres and internment camps isn't it more respectful to say nothing about their dad them commemorate them out of political necessity or political advantage and so there is one way of looking at this which is the following right in the house the democrats were unhappy with trump and were unhappy with turkey and that's why the resolution passed in the senate the republicans were more unhappy with turkey than they were happy with trump and that's why the resolution passed but this is i think one way of looking at this it removes from the equation decades and decades of activism that kids and decades of involvement in engagement by i mean americans with their representatives many of whom have been part of this struggle over the past decades and many of whom have been willing to

push for disaffected mission and when things lined up and the opportunity opened up that resolution was passed no again it's very difficult to parse through which element which piece of this is you know is taking advantage of political circumstances which part of it is purely motivated by justice but ultimately beyond motha motivations i do we can question the motives of anybody but at the same time beyond all of this the outcome of this next year 10 years from now 20 years from now is going to be the fact that the united states is now standing alongside more than 30 other countries on the right side of history now you know that the turks themselves dawned really question that the hundreds of thousands of armenians laws die lives in night in 15116 during their forest departed ations but they do dispute the scale of the death toll as well as the printed. taishan to kill

the systematic state effort behind it so why do you thing it is so important to pin down on these i mean because it's i mean looking at it from from from a side it looks like it's not going to make the relationship between the turks and their menials any easier yes no it is 20 years from now 20 years ago it would have been much easier to say the turks turkey have this particular position on the army in genocide today things have changed significantly for a number of reasons 1st of all the turkish state's position has shifted because outright denial of their means genocide the position that they had decades ago which was essentially not only denied the fact that there was a genocide of the armenians but also accused armenians of having committed genocide that untenable position has shifted because it's untenable at the same time other

developments have tried to transform churchy in small ways but in ways that is difficult to turn the clock on for example civil society publications on the genocide that over the past couple of decades have. thousands upon thousands of turks and others some political dimensions related to the particular to the main kurdish. party in turkey all of these things have transformed the turkish landscape and i believe that today anyway it is important you know any pressure. any effort to raise awareness of the genocide is actually on the longer term can be helpful when the issue off the armenian genocide is discussed it especially by politicians it is usually treated as as a standalone devoid of the historical context a context which in my view at least is absolutely vital in understanding the janice's of those mass atrocities i mean the preceding mass expulsions of muslims

from the balkans diary settlement in the natalia the resentment of income inequality that existed between their medians and their newly relegated muslim neighbors aren't all of these contributing factors lost in today's geo political bickering. but look ultimately i believe that scholarship is at the foundation of any kind of full reckoning of the historical context right and i believe that that you know scholarship evolves not by some kind of the way it is framed right now in politics particularly in turkey where the turkish prime president would say you know let's bring. turkish scholars and other scholars and have a historians commission to discuss this right this is not some kind of street fight where we bring people and you know make them clash scholarship evolves over the years over decades and it has its own dynamic of engaging and deep going deeper and

deeper into. the historical dimensions of any crime the elements that you you mention for example the hundreds of thousands suffering of hundreds of hundreds of thousands of muslims who were kicked out of the balkans and elsewhere the suffering of the ottoman empire itself tremendous suffering within the ottoman empire doing were one all of these things are not 1st of all they're not caused by the armenians 2nd of all this is not you know addressing you know the fact that there is a. major crime the genocide that took place during world war one in the context of tremendous suffering is in no way an effort to undermine professor i'm not talking about undermining but i would think that the ultimate purpose of the genocide recognition is not condemnation precisely because the fact that turkey rejects the charges of genocide so vehemently is itself a sign that it finds them horrendous i think the ultimate purpose is making sure

that the social and the political day now makes that precipitated those mass atrocities i fully understood not only by scholars but by people on the street and that something like this never happens again do you think by putting the blame squarely on the turkish state that you can actually achieve that. purpose is also some measure of justice right in in 1965 when. commemorating the 50th anniversary of the i mean genocide when tens of thousands of armenians in virtually every major city in the word got on the streets and started demanding justice and recognition right their intention was to find some measure of justice to this tremendous dispossession and destruction of an entire nation and in that sense i believe that but at that point you know bringing this issue on that you know in turkey and bringing it up and discussing it was impossible so what happened armenians survivors descendants of survivors of armenians all over the

world right they turned to their own respective countries asking for that kind of recognition from their respective countries and so this is an important element of this so yes the recognition is a lot about prevention the recognition is important in terms of thinking and i think we should for turkey is also important you know to break a cycle of violence that has haunted the country for for generations now but ultimately it is also about the victims and here it's important if the victims. for the victims justice is important acknowledgment is important more power to them professor martin we have to take a very short break now but we will be back in just a few moments stay tuned. join me every thursday on the alex simon short and i'll be speaking to guest of the

world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. x. and stacey our continuing our south american tour and as you can see behind me we are in rio de janeiro oh my god so beautiful so much going on this is a country in transition. my name is sucking on. this jack see what i don't see it's a check. of the border you know. what we've got to get. to cause you don't need to move. you know. these speeches and i use down 6 to make it very very easy

and those who teach school on drugs used to people. who've been forced to close schools clubs do really he's trying to shift the life of a music that. i love to jazz because he makes me copy i love he dies because he meets me copy point beautiful. and when you teach me. yeah.

welcome back to worlds apart but more i don't like your. south asian and african studies at columbia university professor more of the the atrocity is against the armenians very well documented mass murders forced labor internment day treatment was every bit as inhumane as the treatment or of the mistreatment of the jews during the 2nd world war and yet. the jews managed to secure the label of john aside for their suffering and. have not managed to do that why do you what do you think is the reason for that. well in fact you know in today's world you know historians scholars and the overwhelming majority acknowledge you know the army

genocide. same applies to many countries including the united states but also in many european countries russia of course and others i believe your question pertains more to general awareness of the crime and in this it's important to note that oftentimes what happens is that it takes generations. for the survivors to actually 1st of all recover from. the challenges they have been faced. think and then you know rebuild their communities and then only start the pursuit of justice and for i mean is this took close to 2 generations now professor you mentioned the number of countries that do you recognize the armenian genocide but there is one notable exception and this is israel in fact israel has repeatedly thwarted any international effort to grab that recognition how do you explain that. israel is

indeed one of the countries that have not recognized i mean genocide yet. other nor you know countries include the u.k. and others and in the case of israel i believe that this is a. major challenge for a number of reasons one of them of course is that. up until very recently the argument was that wall even you know when the united states is is not able to recognize the army in genocide for political considerations imagine the situation of israel in the region and therefore the importance of turkey for israel and that's one of the reasons why you know israel is not able to recognize the army genocide other arguments that have been presented have been the jewish minority in turkey and others or to pass come a few years though many. jewish american organizations and other organizations have changed their position increasingly on the recognizing their i mean genocide and

within the israeli knesset itself efforts to pass a resolution recognizing the army genocide has gained greater momentum i do believe that this is a tremendously important challenge for for israel and i do believe that for a for. for the for the for the for israel that is that sees itself as. you know having survived you know for many jews having. survived the holocaust and for it to have this kind of complicated relationship with genocide i believe is 1st and foremost a major challenge for the israeli state itself it's difficult to sustain an argument that for whatever considerations political and other the state of israel is unable to acknowledge the fact that you know i'm going to have our means were killed and one of the 1st genocides of the 20th century now there are many.

witness accounts many of them coming from western diplomats at the time of the of the crimes against the armenian people and one of the most poignant that counts for me at least comes from british diplomat. who was a very respected figure at the time and who reported that the massacre of. 18 in the city in what is now the syrian desert was perpetrated by the kurdish on d'armes and technically speaking they would be the ancestors of more than de syrian kurds do you think the kurds and the syrians for that matter have to be brought into that discussion especially as attaches on wrist to tuition and reparations absolutely divil of kurdish. kurdish groups drole many other groups in the army and genocide has been documented has been documented extensively. in recent years there has been some effort particularly by. you know

the poor kurdish party in turkey to confront this past this effort has not been perfect but it has been a lot more than the turkish state has been willing to do you know diyarbakir has been a place where there has been significant efforts to restore an army and church to hold conferences and gatherings and discussions the kurdish politicians avoid and you know denial of the genocide and often are very forthcoming in their acknowledgment and their role in it i do believe there is more that need. to be done in that context as well my problem is just the history doesn't have a starting or ending point and once you start looking into the armenian genocide you come across the genocide and the what i mentioned before the forcible expulsion of years from the caucuses in the balkans i mean why do you draw the line at least as far as restitution and reparations that concerned i mean there were a lot of aggrieved parties at that time and the beginning of the 20th century was

a pretty brutal time with a very different perception the very different attitude toward both the value of human life the access to billets you know wartime losses i'm not one who will ever argue that there are worthy unworthy victims i'm also one who will be very adamant on pointing out to the fact that although there is a lot of suffering in the past although there is a lot of suffering in the world today not doing anything and not addressing major crimes is not an option we cannot say you know there is too much suffering everybody suffered and therefore nothing needs to be done there is a reality in the here which is that for over a century the army and people have been dispossessed pushed out of their lands and for them this crime and justice for this crime has been very important it's also important to also distinguish the fact that whenever we have a crime de enormity of the armenian genocide and other cases of genocide that's

that we're talking about issues of confronting it can all the doing it and injustice and reparations for it are important no it's also important that you know other cases and other crimes are recognized absolutely these days one of the discussions happening in turkey is about how turkey is going to recognize the destruction the genocide of native americans. and it's being presented as you know what let us face its own crimes and i'm sure i would say absolutely. absolutely it is important to confront the crimes wherever they happen but it shouldn't be means to dilute you know the experience of. this particular case of the army now professor let me ask you a question that made deemed to be politically incorrect because the armenians just like the juice and to last or extend the kurds are a diaspora people they are scattered around

a while then i assume that our ways of fostering athlete going to college chill identity are different from the peoples that leave in that mainland could it be that the armenians and the jews for that matter are also instrumental lies their suffering their historic suffering as a way off carrying that identity for of earth so it is important to say that before the independence of armenia one of the important significant main markers of our mean identity was genocide and its legacy and this is just a fact of life i grew up in lebanon on in an environment where you know genocide survivors were around us right it's not about i never thought about as instrumentalists thing i thought about it has to be that this person is my grandmother and she went through this experience right so this is important to be mindful off it's important at the same time as you know to say to not that put you going to be for the independence of armenia right this was central

a major issue for armenians today it still is in the diaspora but at the same time i believe that there is a 2nd important issue as of all farming is that mobilizes armenians as much if not more which is today's republic of armenia so in many ways many are means will be directly involved in efforts to secure acknowledgement for the army but they will also be very much involved in engage with their country armenia well professor mark down of a half. we'll leave it there thank you very much for being with us today and sharing your perspective thank you thank you for having me our viewers can keep this conversation going in our social media pages ass for me on the team we hope to hear again same place same time on the walls a part of. this

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