national day without having and nation state do you hear us have to wash the independence referendum put on your remains both in the morning and in bargaining chip in spanish politics and that's the acting government in many very bad just average loan said to the north elections in 4 years what is it leave the session in coffee i'll be putting this question to alfred bosch minister for foreign action institutional relations and transparency of patel on am. all for bush it's good to talk to thank you very much for your time thanks for inviting me. i introduced you as a minister but the spanish authorities you're more like a counselor with an outsized mandate because the spanish authorities don't believe that colony is supposed to have any foreign the action of foreign policy and then they are independent state why this could to lonny need to have for an action that you are responsible for or we're not going to argue about words we simply

translated like that in english so that you understand that i'm part of a government the catalan government is still the independent government belonging to recognise state but still we do have a minister like lenders and germany or other governments also have. yes we been seeing how the spanish government especially the ministry of foreign affairs. brady has been trying to stop us from making any foreign action we think we're entitled to that because. in 21st century you go to be competitive and have a place in the world otherwise you won't prosper i'm sure would agree that the lonnie's know it's like any other city in spain this dispute has been plaguing this country for 3 centuries and if you look at the recent polls it's not evident that the majority of couple one support independence i wonder how do you frame this issue right there is it still about full of flood. independence or do you stop way

out self-determination and the right to vote the regardless of which way the boat goes from a pro independence party and our ideas that we can have a better country and better welfare for all people with a capital and republic so that's what we're pursuing and regarding how many people support that you have all kinds of polls some of them were a majority and some of those perhaps not but that's exactly why we want to vote we want to know the real numbers we want to know who's supporting in the pens and who does not and there's no way the kingdom of spain can agree on such a referendum like the u.k. did it for scotland or. so we don't think we're better than any other nation but we're no less than any other nation but the e.u. know that the problem with referenda and i think the bracks of station shows that the independents moment it's called support is that as well is that people may

change their mind the circumstances may change. are you sure that if you have internationally recognised referendum and if the majority of catalan say no to independence is that going to put the issue to rest once and for all. not for me or people like me but we will have a result and we will accept it obviously. the same thing if there is a yes we expect the spanish authorities and the international community especially the spanish government to do what they didn't do on october the 1st 2017 when such a vote was held and they did exactly the opposite which is put people in jail my predecessors in the catalan government we saw. police troops being sent to hit people in their heads and we seen almost 2 years of preventive chill for people who organize a vote can i ask you specifically about that our friend because. from what i

understand neither the current cut on authorities nor the spain authorities consider it illegal or free and fair for you it wasn't free and fair because of the police presence for them it was illegal as far as they resolve the concern and i think over 90 percent of people who came to the polls they supported the independence cost as far as the result the country do you consider them illegitimate there were it is it more like a legacy or every torkel issue for you it was an enormous wonderful feat bringing millions of people to the polls enabling them to vote despite police disruption and brutality and it's something the people of catalonia achieved and the government which was in place then helped the people to do to vote freely for the future that's the way we think things should be done perhaps we didn't have the strength to fulfill the mandate of the people and that's why we need international

complicity and support to convince the government to spain that this is the sensible a reasonable way of doing things the democratic way because the use of force is not helping. people in catalonia we believe that the majority of people but if it's not a majority let's test it and let's find out the people in catalonia want to vote and that's a certainty for 80 percent according to most polls want to vote for the future and want to vote on independence such an issue has to be delivered to the people and democracy is the rule of the people for the people and with the people so that's the way we think it should be done now the leaders of the along independence moment hole oversaw that referendum as you mentioned and now awaiting the sentencing by the spanish supreme court and. they are given political situation in spain

over all that. jail terms may provoke and now there outburst of violence there and i thought of police cautious on the streets do you share that concern and we will discourage any aggressiveness and that's what we've been doing for more than 7 years now this is a peaceful movement it's a civic movement and it's a movement which is fighting for human rights and for a democratic outcome because that's the only way out the use of force and we've only seen that on the side of the powers of the state in spain. police troops were sent by the spanish government the catalan government was suspended by the spanish government because the law in parliament was suspended by the spanish government is a spanish judiciary system that has been put people in jail kept in there for almost 2 years a preventive jail without trial and we'll see what the sentences are right now and

we're very optimistic but the use of coercion on the side of the spanish it does not help and we believe that it is a historical mistake now what we say to the international community to people in russia europe elsewhere what we tell them is. look that's not the way to solve things nowadays we believe another way the only way possible is the one has to be agreed upon there are per kershaw's for the leaders of that referendum drastically different depending on which legal system they fall on their former president. pushed him on to go by the german court where some of his associates are now facing up to 25 years in prison on charges of rebellion how do you explain such a drastic difference in terms of the legal treatment in europe where. legal systems are supposed to be harmonized so i think it explains itself you've got some of the members of the previous government. half of them which went into

exile and there they have been overseen by courts judges legal systems they are all free citizens in europe whereas those who remained have been almost 2 years in preventive jail awaiting these sentences and we'll see what falls on their heads so clearly they're there's a european justice on one side which acts in a certain way and there's a spanish justice or injustice we think that shows very well different ways to deal with a situation which can only be met through dialogue through talks and finding this way which has to be democratic let me ask you a personal question i'm sure many cut alarms are asking themselves if you had to choose between leaving your country or staying but being behind bars what would you personally opt for as you can imagine a thought about the dozens of times and i don't know i think both

both options are respectable it depends on your own personal situation obviously if you have small children it's one thing if you don't it's different. really don't know. well i don't want to go to jail but ready to face it if the time comes because it's not my situation which is important it's the condition of the freedom of our people they are entitled to decide us of thomas jefferson said the world belongs to the living not to the dead not to things which happened hundreds of years ago it belongs to citizens who have full rights and are living nowadays in this place so we must deliver it to the citizens so how do you take the lead. if you deliver it to the citizens while being behind bars would be somewhat constrained yes but morally high. all those in jail.

are saying. telling those that are telling the world that there is a lesson of dignity to be learned that when you serve the people you have to serve them to the last of the consequences and that. their their situation is less important than the goals which the these goals apply to rights to collective rights which cannot be relinquished which will not be surrendered now there but their morals is really much more important than their capacity to act effectively and that's why we consider them and that's why they are our leaders still are and will continue to be. i saying that. they have moral high ground is a little bit higher than the situation up here former president. no. it's also when somebody who is in exile is also

a victim of repression and then just a different choice isn't going to compare them and he is not facing 25. in prison he's away from his kids. his family and general small children and it's not a desirable situation in my own party scatterable gonna we have one of the leaders the president of our party mr get us was in jail in madrid and the other one the secretary general this is for a leader who is in exile in geneva now i understand both of them and they both took their decisions and when i talk to them either in jail or in exile i feel enormous admiration the same for both of them i think that these people resent the deserve our respect for what they did for the courage they had and all the time when i try to think about them when i have to take decisions i think they do have moral height and that's why in moral terms i think we're way ahead of what. the

powers of the state in spain are doing well minister we have to take a very short break now and i think we'll be back in just a few moments they can't. time after time corporations repeat the same mantra sustainability very. transition to sustainable transport sustainability. the more equitable and sustainable. they claim their production is completely homines. the big. companies want us to for. good about buying their products while the damage is being done far away this isn't all this

that's the point any minute i'm. used to do don't even. understand the. join me every thursday on the alex simon chill and i'll be speaking to guest of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. welcome back to worlds apart with an alfred bosch minister for foreign action and situational relations and transparency of get along and. minister speaking about your of the supporters of get along as independents want to stay with then you are a bad one to have independence from spain what does it mean in practical terms well

the difference is that we can have our own say and. we don't think country or for instance a minister in spain lying mr war a was trying to close down our delegations our voice in europe we want to be in europe we want deal in trade or in culture we want to have a free voice in our own voice in europe we think we can deal better with our problems if that's the case and that europe will listen better to our own circumstances. also to a certain extent it's difficult to work with somebody in madrid like mr were a again minister of foreign affairs or spain who shrine to block our action who is somebody else undiplomatic as to say something like russia is a role. and i mean things like that i think that out rage is real and when there is

you i mean ministers common to go you can always encounter difficult personalities whether they come from your country or from somebody else has become the representative of foreign affairs in europe exactly talking about that now that i mean that even if you were independent he would still be in that position if he gets his way so. who would want to be represented by somebody like that who would want to live in a place where your leaders are put in jail because they organized the vote so what we're saying is we want a catalan republic because we think it would be fair to our people we think that we would be free to take our own decisions we think it would be better for our welfare for our opportunities in europe and elsewhere that's what we think and i think it's legitimate to correct me if i'm wrong but from my perspective border is the way big this and russia for example they don't exist anymore in europe and catalonia has a fairly broad that tommy sound would say that compare it's you the governmental

crisis in spain your ability for sell through is now bigger than for many other parts of spain don't you already have all the tools that you would you suppose though well we obviously we think we don't we need to and we want to have more but if what you're saying is true if there's a. huge amount of self-government and borders are not as straight as they were in the past then what's the big deal what's the big deal why not accept a new state in europe of people who are pro european want to remain in you were not brought to tears will remain yours and want to contribute to the well for of europe into the european values of democracy of equality of dialogue of peace and we think that we are ready to contribute on our own to this new europe. but it's part of the euro meet the european community and constituency what's the big deal

what's the problem why can't we accept that possibility in the 21st century. i'm sure you would agree that. separate from spain perhaps in your vision would be better but it would also have to recognize that spain without catalonia would not be the same country do you have any sympathy for your spanish friends and neighbors and brothers because cattelan it contributes a significant portion to the spanish g.d.p. it's a very vital region and obviously spain would lose a lot if it loses get along in. are you suggesting that the kingdom of spain is dealing unfairly with catalonia that we're paying the bills for spain is a word you're suggesting i'm not suggesting that but i know that they stealing is pretty widespread here in catalonia and i think many people here at least from the people we talked to yesterday they feel that the central government is taking more

than it's giving to them let me say that right now the main issue is not economic there's an economic side to everything but right now the issue is of civil rights and of democracy we want to be of age we want to take our own decisions so i think it's quite reasonable to understand why we want to stand up have our own say and contribute to the welfare of europe and of the world on our own from our own side we think we're perfectly capable of and as you said we're a prosperous place we don't have economic problems as a country with our economy which is booming right now tourism is booming and whoever has been in catalonia or in barcelona knows that this is a place of talent creativity of economic prosperity hardworking people so we think we could make an enormous contribution. to europe and its diversity it minister i think there is a clear correlation that when economic times are good they support for independence

tends to the window and when there is a crisis economic crisis. support for independence towns to increase. some people in a retort to your argument that one of the reasons while the lawn and get along as a whole has been made so prosperous is because of the contribution of the entire country of spain is that not the case which contribution while the budget their contribution to support for barcelona when it was preparing for the olympic games etc i mean but like you have a very long history and they were both good and bad economic times for for the entire country we believe in solidarity and i think we've proven that the biggest demonstrations for welcoming refugees because the international aid incorporation have taken place and parcel in our society is a caring society concerning the whole world and concerns spain as well no that's not the issue the issue is is that solidarity free and voluntary or is it

forced to what extent does help in sticking together and helping other people to what extent can that be taken and forced to another situation where you're actually being ripped off where you're not being dealt with fairly and you also have strong theories in favor of the 2nd issue but i insist this is not an economic question and right no we have a government from the catalan parliament which came from the elections and there's a pro independence majority when there was a crisis. but certainly years ago the same slight majority you're mentioning was there so things are not that different in times of crisis in times of prosperity people that are supporting in a band well it's been fluctuating to be fair let's vote for this because what's the

problem about voting well i think the problem from the point of view of both madrid and brussels is that if. they do you course as you see it is pursued here it may inspire other independents or secessionist moments are nationalist moments as across europe do you have any concerns about that because obviously because of an issue is a very old one but there are more recent coffees would you like to see europe pursuing that nationalist secessionists path more actively and then it now look they voted freely for independent scotland the result was no they did in quebec the result was no now what's the result when you say to people that they cannot vote and that whatever they vote they won't be recognised it actually helps you in increasing your numbers now since this whole process started and the spanish government and the spanish war nicky and spanish power has been saying constantly no you're not free to decide you're not free to vote what has happened the numbers

have been increasing the last 15 years we've increased from roughly 10 percent of pro independents population to half of that population 50 percent but obviously there's been a very sharp increase in support for independents and white in part and only important in part that's also because of repression because people are not allowed to decide what happens when you tell a teenager no you can't be free you can't go out tonight you can't engage in sex you can't do anything freely the teenager will probably feel a desire to do things freely all which is prohibited there is not a lot of people to a teenager and comparing the attitude of the spanish government to a parent who doesn't realize that young people turn of age and then they have their rights to be free to decide upon their selves and to emancipate now is

somebody is dealing with a whole community or a country like catalonia as if it were underage and not allowed to. to do whatever it seems fit in a reasonable peaceful democratic way if you don't allow that you're dealing with this population house citizens and obviously we don't like that a few months ago you sounded cautiously optimistic about the government the federal . who favor it. with a toll on authorities do you think that opportunity has been for we explore it by both sides it has been fully explored by mr sanchez and his government despite the fact as you mention that if it hadn't been for them for the pro independence parties he would never have become prime minister so there we assisted in changing mr roy horn and we hope that the mr science it will be different but now we've seen

people still in jail almost 2 years there in preventive jail without trial accused of organizing a referendum because it is not in charge and they will the the state attorney and the public prosecutor have very close connections to the government in fact the general attorney is named by the spanish government and the specific prosecutor designed by the government is under the orders of the spanish government and they have required a request the very heavy sentences which i hope are not brutal let me also ask you about another controversy surrounding the european parliament in which the electoral board at the spanish electoral board for bade a number of. local representatives from taking their seats at the european parliament i think we are talking about 3 individuals do you take that as

a legal or a political issue. well the european parliament is a body of political representation so there's no other way you can take that let me say also that this proves that the catalan issue and the conflict in spain is not a purely local for it's not an internal affair of spain it's in the european parliament and they're in the european parliament they're dealing with something as substantial as finding out whether the european parliament the sovereign and can accept those any piece of those members of the european parliament which have been of which have been voted in this case for instance by more than 2000000 people now as a dozen member states like spain have the right of veto to say who goes to the european parliament and who doesn't go there i think that's wrong but it's there on the table of the european parliament it's a united nations it's a national parliaments it's in the international media it's all over the place this

is an international issue. let's face it what i said on what do you think you are a human pain that it's political but my understanding is that the court and especially the supreme court has to follow the law which would have meant that those representatives including mr pritchett mana would have to appear in person before the central electoral committee and take the pledge of allegiance on this banished constitution which explicitly bans regional referendums now he went against that doesn't well i mean they're all true that's true i'm sorry he's got no no there was a provision and spend his lot abetting referendums like you mentioned that was a raised 2007 but clearly mr bridger on the end back in 2071 against that constitution because here preceded the referendum do you think he kept watch referendums are contemplated in the spanish constitution but isn't that the

night. 78 constitution doesn't it stress the indissoluble unity of the spanish nation which i think is a code phrase for so long it so would involve having to ball in oh look i'm pro in the by the entire country i'm pro independence of and. it's in our program i've been elected to spanish congress been elected to the city council in the cuttle in government it's not illegal because. the defendant in pursuing a. particular political program be it in the pens be it unionism be it whatever socialism whatever that cannot be illegal now what the can say is that events or acts could be illegal but. we don't believe they did anything illegal by taking people to the to the polling stations to vote that would be outrageous but anyway though the issue that you're talking about is really very troublesome can

a judge really decide whether an elected representative can go to a chamber or not know sent in the sabine ruled and the spanish courts have already said these people have not been tried cannot go to the european parliament or to the spanish congress now i think that's wholly unfair and that is something which looks very illegal to me apart from unfair while mr rich have to leave it there but i really appreciate your candor thank you very much for your time you're most welcome and courage of yours to keep this conversation going in our social media pages and hope this year again same place same time here and of wealth apart.

there's a lot of here is the economy where china has caught up or surpassed you know the mobile payments market 50 times the size of the us or over here still writing checks our banking system is not innovated. kind of recently woken up the last couple years and go wow we don't even have a company that can make equipment it's been a win win for china and it's been a lose lose for the u.s. .

multiple rocket attacks in iraq missiles hit the air base where u.s. troops are stationed as well as the highly secured green zone containing the u.s. embassy and a residential area in baghdad. in the meantime thousands filled the streets of the iraqi capital holding a memorial processions for those killed in friday's u.s. air raid including one of iran's top generals and protests against american airstrikes erupt in more than 70 cities across the u.s. the u.s. get out of the middle east. and scandal in our media as a criminal scheme is revealed which helped foreigners illegally adopt newborns for over 2 decades coming up next.