lay the groundwork for a united ireland we speak to a self-confessed m i 5 spy working undercover at the highest levels of shin fein over them all coming up in today's going underground 1st on saturday's show we spoke to m.p.'s from both the d.p. engine fein about the return of good friday agreement local government to northern ireland we also was lieschen fade m.p. from c. malloy about the history of his party during the troubles the subject of a new book by a self-confessed former m i 5 spy willie calling who confesses to working at the highest levels of sinn fein in the seventy's and eighty's well i said this in response to collins claim that some of the british government secretly wanted a united ireland well i think that at different times you have to find no no thought you're on the british government i do said they would never talk to their ear and yet we find that behind the scenes the war talk and they read that they were trying to get a political settlement on their terms so i think the british government like any other government work on a number of different times that the same time will be made have acted over exactly

as a thinking what's important he was good i think in the mind of british intelligence with a car and wasn't a key player we also asked him about whether the ira zylon control shion frayne is alleged by government well i think if you look at the our party as a democratic organization a political organisation to stand for election our members are that the 1st minister no was elected democratically and so with all our members with that we recently went through the west new selection where 7 of our m.p.'s were turned again so i think in order for a kerry a democratic organization well i'm now joined by the author of the book fathers' spy my life as an m i 5 agent inside shin fein with the column willie welcome to going underground how come you're still alive and why is the book called thatcher spy. is going to strange but i think i'm a very lucky person. it's one of those things that

you know when you've been where i've been and you get taken note and you know you have had a lucky escape as time goes on you miss the adrenaline because we lived on around and i lived around but i suppose the reason i'm a lady is i still practice. you know dr unknown writer both retains and going back the way i came or walking down the street. and look another sit in the one the one i'm really looking across the street to see is behind me and. i don't know where i got the. name from i think was because. there was i work in as a soldier undercover and you know i don't really believe or think that i was an

important and then when i was taken note of terry and within 4 days i'm on mrs tice's jet leave in belfast to go on the london and my family's you know my wife and my 2 sons and my daughter i think it's grieved. and i'm just sitting there thinking you know. this was plain to condon this way we use those stupid i'm going to get at that and the shadowy m i 5 s s like the f. are you in a 2nd let's go back a bit and go back to how you became a spike as he left the army. and some a girl allen reese morgan said he wanted you to go home and spy on your neighbors and friends put you in place before harold wilson is elected yes and why would you join the british colonial power that was responsible of as you say in the book they ran the are you see in particular raided your own mother's a house well you're

a catholic when i when i when i grew up on the craig in the state. there was no work for young men like me on your name for example would seem to get on the school you went to that you didn't get a deal because the protestants run the system in the north so it was unusual for a young man of my age to join the army because our fathers have been in the army me i'm i was born in 1040 it's on a war p.c. and when i got to my regiment i discovered there were 25 young navy spend the same as me they'd left fail fast and very to join the british army so that was an unusual ok it will be seen is unusual maybe on in derry around 177 the republicans they enter what you call an anti capitalist phase tell me about you witnessing that because. you didn't seem to support their anticapitalist phases

around the time the ira he killed geoffrey i gate of du pont du pont of course in from as for supplying agent orange vietnam which killed a thing a war that killed 4000000 somebody made the decision some where the thumb people time the normal a's our society in north with big factories and lots of jobs was the wrong way to go on i remember really well being at home one night and a knock came to the door and my neighbor said to me there's a young guy here looking for your sister. and i think is the trouble so we brought him and we looked after him as it turned out she was one of the people that was involved in the murder of geoffrey i get. i mean even his murder caused mayhem all the across to america when when president carter even said he knew it was a disgrace. dupont was

a drunk and to convey that bloke supplier so shortly after you met martin mcguinness you know to gerry adams is trying to promote him politically trying to get him away from the armed struggle tell me about. initially it was very in those with a cause martin martin was it was o.c. of northern command at the time. and we were we were in the sort of like the tracks on the one hand shane finn was developing it was and it was in baby stage you do we were paper sellers we collected only for the present dependence on reserve. you know all the facing us is that. but it became noticeable after a while that. gerry adams seem to have this force 8 of want to take the movement down a different route. not necessarily to the peach route the turner road where they

could get some traction out of the british government and. indeed to get martin on board with it martin again as a long journey towards peace will never happen just so back then your talking with these high powered people in the republican movement and then what you're flying over to london and meeting stella rimington at a hotel in west london alan raised morgan introduced her to me as more as i like very knowledgeable politics music of the tell me that keith won't last for olson will be on again i mean you see. the f.r.u. which i'm trying to get you the 1st loosely allied to the s.a.'s of it the guy who ran it was colonel gordon core of years but gee did you get the feeling that this colonel let alone silly rimington there were politically against wilson against the left annoyed to know. all i knew was that somewhere in the background behind the body politic there was a movement or

a group of people who seem to think. this could lead to deification of ireland but we need to get these guys on board they need to be politics before we can deal with them because if we try to say a lot to the politicians they'll say they're terrorists we can't deal with them it's just it's difficult to explain it's as if there were people behind the scenes who really wanted the unification of ireland and they seen this as an opportunity within the intelligence of absolutely absolutely i'm pretty sure they were denied because they then go on the record i think equally unbelievable arguably is that you're shocked. at the murder of a census worker yes a young mother but this is in the context of saving a 15 year old ball with was killed by the r.u.c.

in april $981.00 to around the time of joy and mothers there were times that. i had worked with what could be called divided loyalties a was nightly sure here i was an undercover soldier trying to focus on what i was sent there to but i kept seeing these things that contradicted the whole can a back story of what i. mean for example you enlisted in the air for you after that killer yes what happened was i left m i 5 in 1980 december 1000 needed me just can't go back to shun fancy listen i want to leave it to you just don't do it so obvious sounds was on hunger strike on the election and from on a site along came up and there was an effort to get them elected and i spent a lot of time and for mana and soter on. canvas and put da posters get money for

the day of the election and i came home and i was sitting at home and. my mother said to me there's a young girl commander in the steps and i think she's crying so she went to the front door and let her and then she came and she was shaken. and it just became clear straight away that this young girl was a census collector. and that what happened was she had a clipboard and on the right hand save the clipboard was called in the scale the estate they lived on a republican area and it's all blocked in read for not to go near there this is the 981 british censors that republicans all across the 6 counties were told do not yell a lot with this colonial sense correct she was a young farmer's wife in fact she was doing what she was doing to earn

5 pounds a day and one day or a shot her they showed a young girl that was earning 5 friends of the she was killed for a fiver when bobby signed sans m p yes i don't hunger strike their streets named after him or the world did you meet bobby sands if you meet francis hughes no no but then names they meant nothing to you well in terms of any kind of revolutionary and dario you never heard it out we never heard of bobby sands and fact i mean i don't even know it was queen birthed in other words if he was a fully fledged member of a or. but but when he dated cause shock waves in the north and everybody all around the world oh when people came from they said the cardinal from roll nice and politicians from dublin and from london. and amman francis he's i remember there was something like a 100000 people went to public sounds as you know there were francis she stayed.

there was a concerted effort to make sure that there wasn't that. so. the body was ordered to be taken away to his family hole no one was allowed to get near it it was buried with just a few 100 people at the gravesite and it was said on the b.b.c. you know break and the support is staying away we'll stop you there more from will he call and now my 5 agents after this break. this is a story about what happens auster a stray bullet kills a young girl in the streets. what happens to her family and daughters in florida the mother daughter is buried in a cemetery meaning messes with your head what happens to the community the public was screaming for a scapegoat the police needed a scapegoat so why not choose

a 19 year old black kid with a criminal record who better to pin this on than him and what happens in court be. shocked shocked as far officer i feel. we don't know justice for the. end of this trial unfortunately you. will still not know who killed just. welcome back i'm still with forma and i 5 agent with a column ok what is the force research unit you are their assets i don't know what

they paid you if you tell who they paid you what exactly is the force research unit there have been submissions to the united nations about it as a death squad. the force of search in that was. a team of people that worked very early on the growing behind the backs of the british army no initially it was thought it was set up to gather information and to run agents g.e. and for trade theory to infiltrate even the e.v.f. and their own agents and gather intelligence but as time went on agents that were working for the fruit who were volunteers were maybe caught in compromising positions. there were all the agents in the same unit so no we had to be agents both both for

informers on inevitably what happened was one star of the kill the other was science crazy but it did happen and eventually we get the steak knife. it was also a free agent and he is know now i understand freddie's scupper teachy steak knife denies it well of course you would. he saved your life oh they'll never get going to say there's no they'll never get him and the court because the minister of defense the one i'm in court because if he goes into court and he starts to talk about information he passed to the free pass to his hand or peter who passed it to colonel care it passed it to the minister of defense i mean her a oped as a scope i'm new here we had a guy who was an ira bomb killing ira volunteers. and a low to do it let him get on with an exaggeration to say that one in 4 members of

the ira around this time were members of the british security services i would say 300 agents yeah i mean i would say that. towards the end whenever we got very close to the good friday agreement when mcginnis and now them's and everybody was round the table i believe that martin was short and arraigned averred way the state of play on the groaned within the ira not names but just roughly how many people in the area right off to the top are british agents and i think he knew them you know the ratings on the war were not going when the us and i think that's way the same top and this is wiles and my 5 are being infiltrated by the russians they have agents their own agents killing each other whilst being in the ira yes and all the time your working in that is and thinking this is

a job well i mean. i was in the difference 8 i was on i was on the political side but the one thing you learn aversion fein and the ira even today is that the higher up you go with fear the next thing you know you're sitting at meetings astonishing finn meeting anymore it's often half the setting where they are a volunteers the set was a are a commander's you know and that's when you realize these 2 are want i mean even today we've got the peace process we've got married in mcdonald we've got michelle in need we've got all these people but the ira army consul are still in place they area me consul is there drove the republican movement and they dictate what happens within the political decision completely deny that so the f. or you going back to this because this is a submission to the united nations i mean 864 civilians were killed around this

time by loyalist paramilitaries. and link to the air for you estimates so therefore he was responsible for 15 dead do you do you think there could be any truth was it a death squad you were working for mean you have to understand that my understanding is that steak knife would where possible tailless under the i'm going. to get this guy because we have an information that isn't and former american interrogators know there were times when he got there the guy was gone but there were times when he got there at the paris was there and he was able to left them interrogate them and shoot them now i often wonder will i think i told my under that we were going to do this and when i get there is there issued live in their way wasn't removed i mean what do you think about the fact

that the family that we do of pat finucane the civil rights lawyer who represented people on both sides of the community women in the british establishment and this is i've done more for you than any other prime minister would the trying to get to the bottom of the most people believe british state sanctioned murder of a civil rights lawyer well of course i mean the guy in new vs expert his army. is the one that went and shot putter newcomb and he was an agent of the fruit he eventually was taken out of there with a violent. when he was on trial they dropped the murder charts and they went for conspiracy to murder he was flown over of the natick of belfast after 4 years in prison and. it was really should be prosecuted it was well account saddled and cared of and he died and falling off during any of his associates did again the one

should be prosecuted here for these historical crimes against the un charter as a very difficult question. it's one of those things that i mean if you're the father of a mole or of someone who was murdered in the north of course you know you want justice on at the same time if that leads or could lead to things open up in the way as fear or. people and politics don't want. to be clear mrs thatcher took a special interest in the air for you group you outlined the fact that she was specifically interested in in this group she would have been aware of these atrocities she would have been briefed that the war against terrorism has been won and that there is a unit on the growing gallery intelligence and knowledge and also the f.r.u.

did deals with apartheid south africa did you ever have a gun the african can know that you know of any air for you people that had south african guns you know there's been a lot of stuff about how arms smuggling was done with the connivance of m i 5 these are the allegations from arms traders and from apartheid south africa or arms corps the obviously fighting mills mandela this is a learned thing that ever had i ever notice was i mean as the old soldier i mean i knew we had s n g's and we had writings but some of the hunters i had an affair had very strange looking weapons and they certainly weren't weapons of war issued by the british government i want to get on to omar because of the talk about omar and i mean there has been previous allegations about f.b.i. links to bomb making that was used by the you you talk about

cia involvement. in effect in the omagh bombing 300 injured 29 dead. and of course the allegation that you make and others have made is that the r.u.c. were tipped off about the omar bombing ahead of time no doubt in my mind. peter kelly. is known as kevin fulton he was a young soldier in the areas rangers lived in neary and he was in the ira and his recruiters by the force to search and to inform on his colleagues and. he was full on to america where he was 3 and in 02 producers of last fall mean in that there's a bomb that goes off and then when the. the r.u.c. turn up with their so-called team seems

a crime of theirs and they start to take photographs flash camera sets off the bomb and kills more people so he was $3.00 and 0 to do that and he was the one that invented that and the north he also made them all here to be working with the real or it was them a 5 that took a moat to the north i think what they were looking for was for kevin to get more esteem within the unity was so it because you know promoted and higher up in the movement and as far as he was concerned it was working over the border near nana it was making bombs in the bombs are just been sent up into the north and on one occasion he was involved in making a bomb and a car came from the republic of ireland collector and the conversation he overheard led him to believe that this bomb was called duma. he got in touch with his handler and he told us under no easy officer that he believed there was going to be a bomb attack on norma no i've been present with peter kelly when he phoned the

handler to ask him do you remember i told you about the bomb and clearly you could hear is unders in yes i do remember it well i have to check my notes to find the information no strange thing has. the people who partake aaron will not put it in the wrong place they put or that the ball on the street instead of the top of the street so when the ball there came and all the people were driven going towards the ball towards the car and that's why so many people were killed but as far as peter was concerned he warned the r.u.c. that that was going to happen just as if the british government oversee denies any involvement in the bomb completely the u.v.'s were also set up by aces in the free to korea town maids and dublin the korea time and money on to try and bring these forces together to loyalists in the provinces

in the north wanted more police an army on the border to stop ira volunteers bring in bombs over the border to place in strategic positions in the north and they tried to force the republic's government to put boots on the ground to put army on the grow and put police on the growing arms because they weren't armed because if you had infiltrated the go to absolutely southern island yes and the thing was when. someone got the bright idea that. these bonds is musical bands that are common from the republic to the north it might be carrying arms and ammunition over the border for the area to collect when they're in the north the famous miami showband us are good and all you have over there is well well the u.d.r. . the soldiers involved got their uniforms from it was alleged from members of the force of certain. they stopped them

a army van on this way down over the border got them all that the bomb went off to certain the static and the speakers cause the pointy blowing off too soon or in the wrong place there were no rules here you know everybody was doing what they thought they could do to to help this thing called to an end and there was a few that do no way this i'm going to calm down and it's got to get worse before it gets better and that seemed to be the view you know the british government were involved the minister the defense were involved the r.u.c. were involved i mean. all the evidence though because you're saying this 3 you think all the evidence would have been burnt and some of the documentation here is not for release to 2049 some of the killings on these legacy issues do you think most of the evidence of the kind that would support your allegations of such atrocities wells all are destroyed. john stocker when he led the 1st investigation and the stake they found the f.r.u.

. he he was tainted by having all of these were some they say this was a deliberate security services or accident and john stevens comes along and he is doing well and he gathers the evidence and the evidence is burned down in the middle of night all the files all all 0 understanding of the john stevens inquiry office they did save the papers apparently it was a 4 huge job dollar and down his office if you speak to him the 1st it was in the force of certain here going to take my will tell you that it was an attack from. ford and count that were sent over to burn not property i got to ask you know about the book itself did you know i have to get it vetted by the dino just man i got to say my program completely on vetted by dean or does this guy dino just secretary have waste bottle andrew violence yeah well you're the book and cut out most of it well i have to say there's a lot in it that you wouldn't expect to be we really we thought that when it went

up to the treasurer's listener so that the intelligence and security committee could look at it we thought that most of the very fact that we would be allowed to publish. although i have to say you know here we have a lawyer sitting along them and he's paid to do a job. whatever he feels should be taken and then my 5 lawyer yes so at the same time you've got these m.p.'s because that's what they are sitting on the intelligence and security committee a lot of them were very very little experience of the north and i don't think they would real lace by letting a lot of others go that it was going to cause more gone because yes absolutely when the collins thank you notes it for the show will be back on wednesday 14 is the day even more rama as it was inaugurated as the 1st indigenous president of bolivia he's going to be claiming asylum in argentina undernourished you. spec'd right wing coup forced him to do all that getting him to go on this issue and social media is

a scribe for the showing your true. russian president vladimir putin has proposed some important political reforms what are they what are their significance and importantly why now and what about the claim of clinging to power. or. not but also the state. it was in the slope of.

the u.k. anti doping agency refuses to hand over to the global drugs watchdog phone calls from truck superstar most far as part of the ongoing investigation into the disgraced nike oregon projects. are stronger than looks to oppose gregson britain as he hosts the 1st ever u.k. africa investment summit of the 500 comments about the continent that were far from a. free belgian doctors face criminal charges for approving the euthanasia of a woman with a psychiatric disorder is the 1st such trials since the procedure was legalized almost 2 decades ago.