when to turn that oh he didn't. have none he moved can you hear me show a. diminished. welcome to worlds apart from a bloodless revolution to a constitutional coup both supporters and opponents of president putin have been pretty dramatic in describing the changes to russia's power system that he recently proposed what's the real intention behind them and do things after work as intended in russia to discuss that i'm now joined by nikolai patrols senior research fellow

on the russia and eurasia at chatham house disappear trust me it's good to talk to you thank you very much for your time my pleasure and i'm sure you would agree with me that the russian and western media are rarely in seeing but it is really striking to me how differently they cover their recent proposed changes to russia's governing system because. it seems that for the well as the only thing that matters is really whether they're put in stays or goes nothing else is of significance for the russians it's the exact opposite they discuss everything but putin's future role don't you think that both camps missing something important. i do think they have. a clear right to one of major reasons is can they have to to with a flag if they had. known what it did explain. in detail. and that's why everybody can make her own constructions how exactly it

will go on and what exactly goals of the. transformation of the political system on. your right to end saying that. there are 2 camps generally speaking and those who are eager to see that the glass is here full pretty much positive and those who do think that glass is half empty. pretty much negative and the major reason is that now we do see only very general draft of what will happen. with no it's very important how exactly all those sadia switch expressed in the draft law adopted today in the 1st reading by the state duma how exactly they will take shape well let's the let's talk about your own perceptions because in your recent piece

for chess and pals you contend that it's all about prolonging put in its grip on power do you think that's really all he cares about and if so a do you think the staying in power isn't aimed in and of itself or is it a means to something else i think that if allies president putin. seeings. to look at what has happened to on january 15th. there can be no other serious reasons. they saw a life scale can situational reform except for changing the system in a way transforming this is them in a way which will allow puts into keeping after 20 or 24 and they have various nothing strange. if and when he goes with these what looks a little bit strange it's that there are no more political play us who.

know reacts not just in the way. within wholeheartedly support or wholeheartedly oppose the sadia but to analyze what exactly will happen to russia's concede to sion and to russian political system in the result well as you point in your point out in your article the changes proposed by putin introduced checks and balances on his close associates and at the same time and i'm quoting you here ensure that countries judiciary legislative and executive bodies remain passive and that sounds like a bit of an extreme wrong to me is how can heal limit the personal influence of his associates without empowering institutions well the reason why i have described what's going on in a way you have cited is that there are different stages when transformed in the political system at this stage all political institutions very weak and the

throes of a weakened by 1st move some way by the president but it can not last for long and thin the law that transforms the system he it should definitely establish or restore or strengthen political institutions that's why we can speak about the timing of this report reform so that's why i. go in on not. shortly before 2024 but it's going on no because it takes a lot of time to establish institutions to change them to check whether they can to make them practically useful but mr petrov i'm sure you would agree that putin doesn't want to see a russia government by and not that putin and i personally don't see any ah there

are alternatives to you putin is that would satisfy large and if we did on personal and historical. other than democracy what is the scenario that would provide an absolute curative guarantees for him personally without empowering ave individuals while also ensuring his place in history not only as somebody who raised russia from its knees but also somebody who put it on to pass of stable politically stable development in my view a democrat is a sham it's exactly what putin doesn't need it because in this case he will be vulnerable because in this case and in. so the development can lead to questioning him how exactly he was acting as a president did anything send so one way to go he definitely doesn't want so there are no authority around leaders who would like to democratize this system when

leaving from there because see its security problem but if he keeps the current system in place with the super strong presidency he could be just as vulnerable if not more vulnerable to the same kind of prosecution or persecution whatever you call it in fact i thought that those checks and balances on the locals of a kid that you talked about the law enforcement the security agencies that actually sized their power in very oblique ways those the introduction of those checks and balances would make the russian government far more transparent than it is now is that really not a good thing. well 1st of all wish should not speak about checks and balances in the real sense way should speak about kwasi the checks and balances wage will somehow in the bowl to come trawled. next president who will not

because they have powerful as putin looks know that will enable somehow to balance the powerful institution say on 1st the wall polloi agencies exactly and so wouldn't that make russia by extent more democratic even though even if that's serving put in its own personal goals if one does make this system more balanced and more democratic well speaking about balance in this system where should de for bit when balancing from outside from its of citizens all balancing from one side and no with to see the changes switch leading to these balancing from the inside and to providing a kind of. chix wage will in the able. first of all to keep some holly in power i'm not speaking about. this same power as

he does he have no but keeping control over some strategic move sent strategic decisions and at the same time not to let anybody including his successor to change this system easily is that bad or in a way which will not be in favor of those who are implementing one goal in transformation you know one of the scholars that i see quoted a log these days in russia is daniel trace a man and his article democracy by mistake in which he comes to the conclusion that out of the $146.00 political systems dad democratized over the last century and a half only see. 7 percent did it by in time in all the abba cases the circumstances or sort of the logic of history the logic of development to care of that do you totally rule out this outcome for russia nothing can be ruled out now

with this point and it's understandable that transformation of such a scale is very recent and the price that's why by the way we do see how the kremlin these. providing all those changes which could be planned the very beginning but nobody in the it will go that's why they will trace money is absolutely right then too we could see we could see it could have done for example we could see. with. transformational schemes has been well realised. i would not sustain made they have results as absolutely positive for those who have the transform in this system well i actually agree with you and i'm sure you remember this the famous saying by former prime minister of russia viktor chernomyrdin that we were aiming for the bass but

it all turned out as usual do you think putin at this point of time has enough influence and. instruments to see whatever he wants to be realized realized in the way he wants it to be it i'm not that sure. to see 2 major reasons one can they have to with a flag that the life scale of reform which is going on now is not the one which has been discussed for long by different to experts and that's why wage could be seen as more or less well prepared it what we do see in though is well prepared but it's a kind of. threshold appear a sham so we cannot be sure that those who are preparing this reform did everything in a way which will guarantee it from different packages can sequence is this is this

. well the system is phased the 2nd is connected with the fact that in order to slim wigs this transformation to go on in the smallest way the kremlin did that we can all institutions which means that it's much easier to make any moves without being some hollow to vote different political players who could intervene and who could some hollow try to influence what's going on in their own favorite going back to your point about planning i mean russia is not a planned economy anymore and i think the russian leadership has long abandoned any ambition of being able to plan things had in fact itself and accused of playing by the ear and not having enough strategy but one thing that i think is consistent is dad any public opinion poll you look at points to cheering and more

demanding populous putin himself mansion's that in almost all his speeches including the latest state of the nation address if that indeed leads to democratize ation a broader distribution of power within the russian society and the strengthening of the institutions do you think the west and people like yourself the x.-press like yourself who have long been critical of this regime do you think you can accept that as. democratising with putin still being associated but at no i do and i can imagine seeing the area like the one the of nonchalant like those described by then they'll trace money democracy by mistake or by failure and it can be the case used to be the case in many. well similar circumstances but i cannot see any road. well

basement for political pull or look even at this stage today they did vote on them you only know what maine has slid for these. projects with. without. any rejections without any ideas how to improve it this am shelley without any substantial discussion so how could you imagine that they had. to give them as representative self. more riots or how could you imagine that the next generation of duma deputies would be at a you president population imagine that these are he's only and is a mother i can tell you that development doesn't happen overnight i mean your kid doesn't become a 16 year old 2 months after birth it all takes time and it takes a certain degree of practicing in making mistakes to reach i think should be

allowed to russia as to any other country but let's continue that discussion after a very short break we'll be back in just a few moments. operations understand that the cost of doing business is buying and building support in washington d.c. and that includes staffing up with former members of congress put them on your payroll you want to hire a chief of staff from a powerful senator or committee. member get their chief of staff put them on your payroll as a lobbyist this is what washington does on a bipartisan basis in fact i think it's the only point of true bipartisanship in d.c.

is corporate influence over governor. welcome back to worlds apart it's been nikolai patrol senior research fellow on russia and eurasia at chatham house mr patrols in addition to those proposed constitutional amendments that may or may not change the way russia has governed in the future last week witnessed sweeping changes in the way russia is being government right now in the moment there's a new cabinet in place huge. social and infrastructure spending has been

announced what do you think about those don't you think that those practical and maybe the changes always tend to be more important in russian in the russian context than any future amendments to the constitution i don't think so because. well in my view what we've seen on january 15th. the beginning of the presidential address was pretty successful kremlin city and to create there is a very poor is it if backgrounds fall for a name move swayed on not conceded by majority of russians to be that important for them like changing the constitution that's why the president came with a whole bag of different gifts to different social groups and categories but i don't think they have these. they have more important development

they are the one. and the problem i see is not that much connected with a fed call my church the government is giving or is promising to give population no but with a fact how exactly a population in the whole. wot in decision making can take pot in managing themselves by themselves without not waiting for something close gifts like see one of major thinks wages not that much discussed at the time of this transformation is the fact that they have unlike in the. new one will not in the homes they have to sell for administration is separate braincells but not the pot of state management we build your respect i mean local governments and russia is. seemingly extremely weak and sometimes extremely corrupted i mean

you are talking about as if major powers are being taken from them when in fact those powers have never been executed properly but to the point you know people governing themselves i have had numerous accidents on the show who have claimed that the issue of bracks it should have never been put to the vote in britain simply because people are not knowledgeable enough to make such a complicated that economic and political decision just and to fly and here you are suggesting that. the russian people should decide everything by themselves i mean that in every country there is every l.a. zation that certain powers a being delegated to specialists to improve lives in those respective countries like some of you are absolutely right when saying that self administration is extremely weak but its not myself its the constitution my constitution and to your constitution which proclaim slow called self administration has separate branch of

power not the part of state management a matter of the fact is they have to joining all i would say 25 or even 30 years of development. up a levels being the federal government or even the regional governments trying to take. money in the wall for a local self administration but. coming back to your previous point on democrats i cannot see any at all the way of democratising they come true except for practicing democracy local elections absolutely but integrating the local administrations into the power structure is not going to put an end to that in fact it may empower those low. administrations and give them the resources now i want to move on from that

particular point to a larger one the big gift you mentioned you know all putin did at the beginning of his addresses just to hand out some presents to you barrios groups but i see that in the in a very different light i think what we are discussing here is a major shift in the country's economic policy from us charity from the accumulation of resource this huge a more proactive spending on those resources particularly on social and infrastructural projects and whether you like it or not the central government in russia has been pretty successful at saving over the last couple of years do you think it would be just as a fact if that spending would you like it to be just as effective at spending of course i would like it to be very effective in spending money and promoting economic development in the contre the only reason they have to it's possible is can they have to it's with constituents from by the way with the flags there in the

contre like russia you cannot manage the whole big contra consisting of very different regions from one in the same sentence so i would say that in my view is the country is there in watch centralised over you need to round eyes know putin did dick live it will go. and that's why i. cannot imagine how exactly. manager can decide what is needed it's what is needed to grow what is needed so that i actually leave in russia and i can see and you can see that in pulls after pulls developed regardless of which polling organization does it there's a huge swallowing of civility in this country volunteering organisations people coming to the streets to protest against it. environmental hazards against construction what have you this is unprecedented in this country isn't in nobody's

talking about strangling dots kind of activity in fact whatever for the only thing that putin sad in his address is that he wants to bring they stayed in contact and incorporation of of those groups some hole to you i would rather not discuss my age era but let's say i'm. i've been on the spot that's long enough to see changes at least in russia so the room i am. going to. say is that no no we do see much more see they. actually leave to this country i am speaking to you from my personal experience i'm sure from london it appears to be a different picture but the way it's felt here on the ground is very very different and i think it's very uplifting as well my point is that we do not hear of a real. grassroots political activism and this is due to the pressure

the government on to local self administration mountain regions you yourself wrote about mosco city elections scandalous mosco city elections last year and you know that they were and number of very prominent civil activists who were running in those elections people like you to go down in there who has been a major change force for change in moscow wasn't a lower tier wasn't allowed but she continued her activism that elections to raise her profile and there are many more people who are following in her footsteps this system is designed because those activists who have to be pretty much see to do my elections although most. small the board the away which can define anything well i hope that's going to change with the next elections and there are already signs. they are far more political representation different political

representation. at the local levels and the regional level so you know that elections united russia party these prague kremlin dominant party is no longer capable of winning elections whenever it wants. well 1st of all with do no more here if they are a little a actions for. regional capitals except for 7 cases out of 857 cases that constitute the biggest cities in russia where the majority of the population leave no no no no locks on that is to speak of both more school and state business but it's different because they are subject to feed this regime so it's not to vote directly with or a little it's a bold we're not totally actions by the way we're not totally elections. produced staged by the kremlin so. we've seen for he says when those who are pointed by puts him has been rejected by popular vote and

2019 the kremlin did it by its best in order to avoid. in gubernatorial elections then that's why i'm saying that the system moves in the wrong way it doesn't play a 3000 seat is to say play a little is the ball in order to make the system more efficient let me bring you back to the issue of the cabinet because we only have a few minutes left and president putin is known for his knack for balancing in previous cabinet ministers where almost always counter balance by vice premier's representing different groups or different color within the elites the current government in this regard looks far more how mad genius i think it's probably the most liberal government that or the most technocratic government that's. russia has had in a year or so or in decades. how would you explained i've decided that there are at

least checks and balances that you discussed earlier and not really much visible in the new cabinet well this is a different case i would say they have those. kinds of balancing you've mentioned is good even if you want to keep step with squaw and certain balance between live groups like it has been made on the prime minister methods of now with the kremlin wants the government to do something and that's why it looks much more like a team i would not call it liberal i would not quality even technocratic it's it consists of a well relatively good man the joes who are pretty well prepared to realize strategists the road by below will suffer and some some of the guys can act it's wish they do this isn't over equanimity and when you seek to do something.

something would be what keeping puttin in power or pressure you know is just an idea making people's lives better no i think the role of the government is to well promote more d.c. shouldn't see governmental spending so we do see in the national projects wait on not realized as it has been plant during these 2 years the problem i see is that this government is in my view much more capable to be more effective in doing what it's ordered to do the problem is that it will move in a little bit from different directions so it will be status quo in the main and the idea is to make states investment more more effective that's good but it would be better to hear if private investment while it may mr patel. we have to leave it there i really appreciate your time with us today and thank you for watching syria

again next sunday and was a part of. what politicians do. they put themselves on the line they get accepted or rejected. so when you want to be president. or some want to. have to go right to the press this is like them up for free in the morning can't be good. i'm interested always in the wives in the house. they should be.

marking the anniversary of the 75th anniversary of the red army as liberation of the nazi death camp auschwitz world leaders and dignitaries visit jerusalem for a holocaust commemoration spoke to auschwitz survivors. i me i will never forget to me every morning i look at my hands and see well i have the number here and i see it every day that time enough for. the regrets in the face of a u.s. military tribunal the so-called mosque the mind behind cia torture techniques during america's war on terror admits he would do it again. as among other stories of the week people badly corona virus outbreak in china.