attack solo do. engineer election manufacture consent another prince holds according to. one set of rules for the rich. that's what happens when you put her into the. narrow shirt. will switch is dedicated to increasing power for chills just as you'd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the modern civilization of america.

on a welcome to worlds apart from a bloodless revolution to a constitutional coup both supporters and opponents of president putin have been pretty dramatic in describing the changes to russia spot our system that he recently proposed what's the real intention behind them and do things after work as intended in russia well to discuss that i'm now joined by nikolai petrov senior research fellow on the russia and eurasia at chatham house disappear trust it's good to talk to you thank you very much for your time my pleasure i'm sure you would agree with me that the russian and western media are rarely in saying but it is really striking to me how differently they cover their recent proposed changes to russia's governing system because. it seems that for the well as the only thing that matters is really whether to put in stays or goes nothing at alice's us. if i

can put the russians it's the exact opposite they discuss everything but prudence future role don't you think that both camps missing something important. i do think they have perfectly right and one of major reasons is connected with a fag if they had. known what it did explain in detail the plan and that's why everybody can make his so her own constructions how exactly it will go on and what exactly goals of the transformation of the political system are. your right when saying that. there are 2 camps generally speaking and those who are really good to see that the glass is here full pretty much positive and those who do think that glass is half empty. pretty much negative and the major reason is that now we do

see only a very general draft of what will happen. with no it's very important how exactly although sadia switch expressed in the draft law adopted today in the 1st reading by the state duma how exactly they will take shape well let's see let's talk about your own perceptions because in your recent piece for chess and pals you contend that it's all about prolonging put in its grip on power do you think that's really all he cares about and if so a do you think the staying in power isn't aimed in and of itself or is it a means to something else i think that if allies president putin. seeings. to look at what has happened to on january 15th. they.

no other serious reasons. they have a life scale can situational reform except for changing the system in a way transforming this is them in a way which will allow puts into keeping after 2024 and they have various nothing strange. if and when he goes with these what looks a little bit strange it's that there are no more political players who. know reacts not just in the way. within the whole heartedly supports or wholeheartedly oppose these sadia but to analyze what exactly will happen to russia's can situation and to russian political system in the result as well as you point in your point out in your article the changes proposed by putin introduce checks and balances on his close associates and at the same time and i'm

quoting you here ensuring the country's judiciary legislative and executive bodies remain passive and that sounds like a bit of an excessive moron to me how can he'll limit the personal influence of his associates without empowering institutions well the reason why i have described what's going on in a way you have cited is that there are different stages when transformed in the political system as these the h. all political institutions very weak and the 3rd the awakened by 1st move some made by the president but it can not last for long and in the law that transforms the system he it should definitely is the established order install or strength and political institutions that's why we can speak about the timing of this report reform so that. going on not.

shortly before 2024 but it's going on no because it takes a lot of time to establish institutions to change them to check whether they can to make them practically useful but mr petrov i'm sure you would agree that putin doesn't want to see a russia governed by and not that putin and i personally don't see any ah there are alternatives to putin isn't that would satisfy large and if we can on personal and historical grounds odds of that democracy what is the the other scenario that would provide an absolute curative guarantees for him personally without empowering aba individuals while also ensuring his place in history not only as somebody who raised russia from its knees but also somebody who put it all to pass of stable politically stable development in my view a democrat is

a sham it's exactly what putin doesn't need it because in this case he will be vulnerable because in this case and in. so the development can lead to questioning him how exactly he was acting as a president did he say anything since so one way it's a he definitely doesn't want so there are no authority around leaders who would like to democratize this system when leaving from there because see it's security problem but if he keeps the current system in place with the super strong presidency he could be just as vulnerable if not more vulnerable to the same kind of prosecution or persecution or whatever you call it in fact i thought that those checks and balances on the so-called sort of a kid that you talked about the lawyer. the security agency is that actual size

their power in very oblique ways those the introduction of those checks and balances with the make the russian government far more transparent than that is now is that really not a good thing. well 1st of all wish would not speak about checks and balances in the real sense way should speak about kwasi the checks and balances wage will somehow in the bowl to come trawled. next president who will not because they have powerful as putin looks know that will enable somehow to balance the powell full institution sound 1st the wall. exactly and so wouldn't that make russia by extent more democratic even though even if that's serving put in its own personal goals if one does make this system more balanced and more democratic well speaking about balance in this system where should de for

bit when balancing from outside from its of citizens all balancing from one side and no with to see the changes switch leading to these balancing from the inside and providing a kind of. chix wage will in the able. first of all to keep some holly in power i'm not speaking about. this same power as he does he have no but keeping control over some strategic move sound strategic decisions and to the same time not to let anybody including his successor to change this system easily is that by a coup or in a way which will not be in favor of those who are implementing one goal in transformation you know one of the scholars that i see quoted

a log these days in russia is daniel traced a man and his article democracy by mistake in which he comes to the conclusion that out of the $146.00 political systems dad democratized over the last century and a half only see. 7 percent did it by in time in all the abba cases the circumstances or sort of the logic of history the logic of development to care of that do you totally rule out this outcome for russia nothing can be ruled out now with this point and it's understandable that transformation of such a scale is very good and the price that's why by the way we do see how the kremlin these. providing all those changes which could be planned the very beginning but nobody in the it will go that's why they will trace money is absolutely right down to we could see we could see it could have based on for

example we could see. with such a transformation schemes has been well realised. not to steam a they have results as absolutely positive for those who have the transform in this system well i actually agree with you and i'm sure you remember this the famous saying by former prime minister of russia viktor chernomyrdin that we were aiming for the bass but it all turned out as usual do you think putin at this point of time has enough. influence and the. instruments to see it whatever he wants to be realized realized in the way he wants it to be it i'm not that sure. to see the 2 major risks one can have to it with a flag that the life scale of reform which is going on now is not the one which has

been discussed for long by different to experts and that's why wage could be seen as more or less well prepared it what we do see in though is well prepared but it's a kind of special appear a sham so we cannot be sure that those who are preparing this reform did everything in a way which will guarantee it from different packages can see quinces this is this . well the system is phased the 2nd is connected with the fact that in order to him wade through his transformation to go on in the smallest way the kremlin did that we can all institutions which means that it's much easier to make any moves without being some hollow of our it about different political players who could intervene and who could some hollow try to influence

what's going on in their own favorite going back to your point about planning i mean russia is not a planned economy anymore and i think the russian leadership has long abandoned any ambition of being able to plan things had in fact itself an accused of playing by the ear and not having enough strategy but one thing that i think is consistent is that any public opinion poll you look at points to a cheering and more demanding populace putin himself mansion's that in almost all his speeches including the latest state of the nation and. raz if that indeed leads to democratize ation a broader distribution of power within the russian society and the strengthening of the institutions do you think the west and people like yourself the experts like yourself who have long been critical of this regime do you think you can accept that as. democratising with putin still being associated but at no i do and

i can imagine seeing the area like the one you have mentioned like those described by danielle trace money democracy by mistake or by fate and yet it can be the case used to be a case in many other well similar circumstances but i can not see any road. well basement for political pull or look even at the state duma today they did vote on them you only know what my knowsley for the well project with. without. a. rejections without any ideas how to improve it to say i'm shelley without any substantial discussion so how could you imagine they are. aimed to give

them as representative self but people a shell. more riots or how could you imagine that the next generation of duma deputies would be at a reprint population imagine that these are he's only and is a mother i can tell you that development doesn't happen overnight i mean your kid doesn't become a 16 year old 2 months after birth it all takes time and it takes a certain degree of practicing in making mistakes to reach i think should be allowed to russia as to any other country but let's continue that discussion after a very short break we'll be back in just a few moments. join

me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guests of the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then. welcome back to worlds apart with nikolai patrol senior research fellow on russia and eurasia at chatham house mr patrols in addition to those proposed constitutional amendments that may or may not change the way russia has governed in the future the last of week witnessed sweeping changes in the way russia is being government right now in the moment there's a new cabinet in place. social and infrastructure spending has been

announced what do you think about those don't you think that those practical and maybe the changes always tend to be more important in russian in the russian context than any future amendments to the constitution i don't think so because. well in my view what we've seen on january 15th. the beginning of the presidential address was pretty successful kremlin city and to create there is a very poor as it if bad groans of fall for a new move swayed on not conceded by majority of russians to be that important for them like changing the constitution that's why the president came with a whole bag of different gifts to different social groups and categories but i don't think they have these. they have more important development

they are the one. and the problem i see is small that much connected with a fed call my church the government is giving or is promising to give population no but with a fact how exactly a population in the whole. wot in decision making can take pot in managing themselves by themselves without not waiting for something close gifts like c one of major thinks wages not that much discussed at a time of transformation is that if we act that they have unlike in the conceit to shun the new one will not in the moments they have self administration is separate the brain but not the part of state management we build your respect i mean local governments and russia is. seemingly extremely weak and sometimes

extremely corrupted i mean you are talking about as if major powers are being taken from them when in fact those powers have never been executed properly but to the point you know people governing themselves i have had numerous accidents on this show who have claimed that the issue of bracks it should have never been put to the vote in britain simply because people are not knowledgeable enough to make such a complicated that economic and political decision just and to fly and here you are suggesting that. the russian people should decide everything by themselves i mean that in every country there is every l.a. station that certain powers a being delegated to specialists to improve lives in those respective countries like some of you are absolutely right when saying that self administration is extremely weak but its not myself its the constitution my constitution and to your

constitution which proclaims local self administration as separate branch of power not the part of state management a matter of the fact is they have to joining all i would say 25 or even 30 years of development. up a levels being the federal government or even the regional governments trying to take. money and the wall for a local self administration but. coming back to your previous point on democrats i cannot see any at all the way of democratising they come true except for practicing democracy local elections absolutely but integrating the local administrations into the power structure is the going to put an end to that in fact it may empower those

low. administrations and give them the resources now i want to move on from that particular point to a larger one the big gift you mentioned you know all putin did at the beginning of his addresses just to hand out some presents to you barry as groups but i see that in the in a very different light i think what we are discussing here is a major shift in the country's economic policy from us charity from the accumulation of resource this huge a more proactive spending on those resources particularly on social and infrastructural projects and whether you like it or not the central government in russia has been pretty successful at saving over the last couple of years do you think it would be just as a fact if that spending would you like it to be just as effective at spending of course i would like to be very effective in spending money and promoting economic development in the contre the only reason i know they have to it's also boat is can

they have to it's with them by the way with the flags there in the contre like russia you kill a lot to manage the whole big contra consisting of very different regions from one in the same sentence so i would say that in my view as a country is there in march centralised over you need to round eyes snow sports and did dick live it will go. and that's why i. cannot imagine how exactly any extreme leaf and manager can decide what is lead to the far east what is needed to grow what is needed so that i actually leave in russia and i can see and you can see that in pulls after pulls developed every gardasil for each polling organization does it there's a huge swallowing of selectivity in this country volunteering organisations people coming to the streets to protest against it. environmental hazards against

construction what have you this is unprecedented in this country isn't in nobody's talking about strangling dots kind of activity in fact whatever for the only thing that putin sad in his address is that he wants to bring they stayed in contact and incorporation of it those groups on the whole to you i would rather not discuss my age and era but let's say i'm. i've been there on the spy that's long enough to see changes at least in russian so the room. he'll say is that no no we do see. because they actually believed in this country i am speaking to you from my personal experience i'm sure from london it appears to be a different picture but the way it's felt here on the ground is very very different and i think it's very uplifting as well my point is that we do not hear of real.

grassroots political activism and this is due to the pressure the government to local self administration mountain regions you yourself wrote about mosco city elections scandalous mosco city elections last year and you know that they were and number of very prominent civil activists who were running in those elections people like you to go down in there who has been a major change force for change in moscow wasn't a lower tier wasn't allowed but she sheep in kenya her activism that elections to raise her profile and there are many more people who are following in her footsteps this system is designed because those activists who have to be pretty much effective at municipal level none of them have been allowed to put to sleep we see to do way elections although most. small close the border wage can define anything

. well i hope that's going to change with the next elections and there are already signs that there are far more political representation different political representation. at the local levels and the regional levels you know that elections united russia party these prague kremlin dominant party is no longer capable of winning elections whenever it wants. well 1st of all with do no more here if they are a little a actions for. regional capitals except for 7 cases out of 857 cases that constitute the biggest cities in russia where the majority of the population leave no no no no locks on the east to speak of both more who and say it was but it's different because they are subject to feed this regime so it's not to vote directly with or linux and it's a bold we're not totally actions by the way we're not thought a little. staged by the kremlin so. when.

we see him for he says when those who are pointed by puts him has been rejected by popular vote and 20th 90 in the kremlin did it by its way asked in order to avoid the real live in gubernatorial elections then that's why i'm saying that this is them moves in the wrong way it doesn't lift the regions it doesn't see to some unity play a litigious took the ball in order to make the system more efficient let me bring you back to the issue of the cabinet because we only have a few minutes left and president putin is known for his knack for balancing in previous cabinet ministers where almost always counter balance by vice premier's representing different groups or different color within the elites the current government in this regard looks far more how much cine as i think. it's probably

the most liberal government that or the most technocratic government that russia has had in years or in decades. how would you explain that i've decided that there are at least checks and balances that you discussed earlier and not really much visible in the new cabinet well this is a different case i would say they have those. kinds of balancing and you've mentioned is good enough you want to keep step with squaw and certain balance between live groups like it has been made on the prime minister meets the needs of now with the kremlin wants the government to do something and that's why it looks much more like a team i would not call it liberal i would not quality even technocratic it's it consists of a relatively good man the joes who are pretty well prepared to realize just the woods by below will suffer on some some of the guys can they act it's with

they do over equanimity and when you say to do something. something would be what keeping putin in power all pressure you know is just an idea making people's lives better no i think the role of the government is to well promote more to. governmental spending so we do see in the national project swayed on not realised has been plant. this is the problem i see is that this government is in my view much more keep a ball to be more effective in doing what it's ordered to do the problem is that it will move in a little bit from different directions so it will be status quo in the main and the idea is to make states investment more more effective. that's

a good buy it would be a bad thought though he has private investment while i may mr petrofsky have to leave it there i really appreciate your time with us today and thank you for watching syria again next sunday and while the party. in the united states presidential candidates debate the future of the u.s. the world. max kaiser and stacy herbert dig into the burning questions of this election cycle one topic every week. tax student debt trade wars

corporate money universal basic. and more catch up with what's front running this sunday exclusively on r.t. . well the leaders and dignitaries attend a holocaust memorial ceremony in jerusalem ahead of monday's anniversary marking 75 years since the liberation of auschwitz we hear from a survivor of the nazi death camps. people tell us that there was no liberation they really saved but without the red army there would be no me my mother or other prisoners. the so-called text of cia torture techniques including waterboarding testifies at a military tribunals hearing and says he has no regrets. and the death toll from a coronavirus outbreak in china reaches 18 according to state media and there are now 2 and a half 1000.