really striking to me how differently they cover their recent proposed changes to russia's governing system because. it seems that for the west the only thing that matters is really whether to put in stays or goes nothing else is of significance for the russians it's the exact opposite they discuss everything but putin's future role don't you think that both camps missing something important. i do think they have perfectly right and one of major reasons is connected with a faggot they had. known what they did explain in detail they plan and that's why everybody can make he so her own constructions how exactly it will go on and what exactly goals of the transformation of the political system are. your right when saying that. there are 2

camps generally speaking and those who are really good to see that the glass is here full pretty much positive and those who do think that glass is half empty. pretty much negative and the major reason is that now we do see only very general draft off what will happen. with no it's very important how exactly all those ideas switch expressed in the draft law adopted today in the 1st reading by the state duma how exactly they will take shape well let's the let's talk about your own perceptions because in your recent piece for chess and pals you contend that it's all about prolonging put in its grip on power do you think that's really all he cares about and if so do you think the staying in power is in a in a. itself or is it they means something else i think they have. allies

president putin and the sayings. to look at what has happened to on january 15th. there can be no other serious reasons. they saw a life scale can situational reform except for changing the system in a way transforming this ystem in their way which will allow puts into keeping. 2024 and there is nothing strange. if and when he goes with these what looks a little bit strange it's that there are no more political play us who. know reacts not just in the way. within the whole heartedly supports or wholeheartedly oppose these sadia but to analyze what exactly will

happen to russia's concede to sion and to russian political system in the result well as you point in your point out in your article the changes proposed by putin introduced checks and balances on his close associates and at the same time and i'm quoting you here ensure that countries judiciary legislative and executive bodies remain passive and that sounds like a bit of an excessive moron to me how can he'll limit the personal influence of he's associates without empowering institutions well the reason why i have described what's going on in a way you have cited is that there are different stages when transformed in the political system as these the h. all political institutions very weak and the 3rd the awakened by 1st move some way by the president but it can not last for long and thin the. hard

to transform the system here should definitely establish or restore or strengthen political institutions that's why we can speak about the timing of this report reform so that's why i. go in on not. shortly before 2024 but it's going on no because it takes a lot of time to establish institutions to change them to check whether they can to make them practically useful but mr petrov i'm sure you would agree that putin doesn't want to see a russia governed by and not that putin and i personally don't see any ah there are alternatives to you putin is that would satisfy leiden if we can on personal energy storage grounds odds of that democracy what is the the other scenario that would provide an absolute cure it guarantees for him personally without empowering ave

individuals while also ensuring his place in history not only as somebody who raised russia from its knees but also somebody who put it on to pass a stable politically stable development in my view a democrat is a sham it's exactly what putin doesn't need because in this case he will be vulnerable because in this case and in. the development can lead to question in him how exactly he was acting as a president did anything send so one way it's a he definitely doesn't want so there are no authoritarian leaders who would like to democratize this system when leaving from there because see it's security problem but if he keeps the current system in place with the super strong presidency he could be. just as vulnerable if not more vulnerable to the same kind

of prosecution or persecution or whatever you call it in fact i thought that those checks and balances on the so called sort of a kid that you talked about the law enforcement the security agencies that actually sized their power in very oblique ways those the introduction of those checks and balances with the make the russian government far more transparent than it is now is that really not a good thing. well 1st of all wish should not speak about checks and balances in the real sense way should speak about kwasi checks and balances wage will somehow in the bowl to come trawled. next president who will not because they have powerful as putin looks know that will enable somehow to balance the powerful institution say on 1st the wall polloi agencies exactly and

so wouldn't that make russia by extent more democratic even though even if that's serving put in its own personal goals if one does make this system more balanced and more democratic well speaking about balance in this system where should be for bit when balancing from outside from it's of citizens all balancing from one side and no with to see the changes switch leading to these balancing from the inside to providing the kind of. chix wage will in the able. first of all to keep some holly in power i'm not speaking about. this same as he does he have no but keeping control over some strategic move sent strategic decisions and at the same time not to let anybody including his

successor to change this system easily is that bad or in a way which will not be in favor of those who are implementing go in transformation you know one of the scholars that i see quoted a log these days in russia is daniel traced a man and his article democracy by mistake in which he comes to the conclusion that out of the $146.00 political systems died democratized over the last century and a half only see. 7 percent did it by in time in all the abba cases the circumstances or that have been logic of history the logic of development to care of that do you totally rule out this outcome for russia nothing can be ruled out with this point and it's understandable that transformation of such a scale is very risky and to price that's why by the way we do see how the kremlin the is. providing all those changes which could be planned the very

beginning but nobody in the it will go that's why they will trace money is absolutely right then too we could see we could see it could have done for example we could see. with. transformational schemes has been well realised. i would not sustain mates they have results as absolutely positive for those who have the transform in this system well i actually agree with you and i'm sure you remember this the famous saying by former prime minister of russia viktor chernomyrdin that we were aiming for the bad but it all turned out as usual do you think putin at this point of time has enough influence and. instruments to see whatever he wants to be realized

realized in the way he wants it to be it i am not that sure. i do see 2 major reasons one can they have to with a flag that the life scale of reform which is going on now is not the one which has been discussed for long by different to experts and that's why wage could be seen as more or less well prepared it what we do see in though is well prepared but it's a kind of. threshold appear a sham so we cannot be sure that those who are preparing this reform did everything in a way which will guarantee it from different packages can sequence is this is this . well the system was phased the 2nd is connected with the fact that in order to them waves this transformation to go on in the smallest way the

kremlin did that we can all institutions which means that it's much easier to make any moves without being some hollow to vote different political players who could intervene and who could somehow try to influence what's going on in their own favor going back to your point about planning i mean russia is not a planned economy anymore and i think the russian leadership has long abandoned any ambition of being able to plan things had in fact it's often accused of playing by the ear and not having enough strategy but one thing that i think is consistent is that any public opinion poll you look at points to cheering and more demanding populous putin himself mansion's that in almost all his speeches including the latest state of the nation address if that indeed leads to democratize ation

a broader distribution of power within the russian society and the strengthening of the institutions do you think the west and people like yourself the x.-press like yourself who have long been critical of this regime do you think you can accept that as democratizing with putin still being associated with it no i do and i can imagine seeing the area like the one the of management like those described by then they'll trace money democracy by mistake. it can be the case used to be the case in many other well similar circumstances but i can not see any road. well basement for political poor look even at the state duma today they did vote on them you only knew what my knowsley for the well project with. without.

any rejections without any ideas how to improve it to say i'm shelley without any substantial discussion so how could you imagine that. to give them as representative self but belief. more riots or how could you imagine that the next generation of duma deputies would be at a reprint zant population imagine that these are he's only and is a mother i can tell you that development doesn't happen overnight i mean your kid doesn't become a 16 year old 2 months after birth if it all takes time and it takes a certain degree of practicing and making mistakes to reach i think should be allowed to russia as to any other country but let's continue that discussion after every very short break we'll be back in just a few moments. i'm

going to fulfill the repeated promises apologise to the people and promise that you know we've all but the truth. is you. really. now you want to 1st. know.

all the. coming coming coming. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have it's crazy on sunday shouldn't let it be an arms race off and spearing dramatic bad to follow the only lead i'm going to resist i don't see how that strategy will be successful very critical time time to sit down and talk.

welcome back to worlds apart bit nikolai patrol senior research fellow on russia and eurasia at chatham house mr patrols in addition to those proposed constitutional amendments that may. they all may not change the way russia is governed in the future the last week witnessed sweeping changes in the way russia is being governed right now in the moment there is a new cabinet in place. social and infrastructure spending has been announced what do you think about those don't you think that those practical and maybe the changes always tend to be more important in russian in the russian context than any future amendments to the constitution i don't think so because. well in my view what we've seen on january 15th. the beginning of the presidential address was pretty successful kremlin city empty to create

a very poor is it if bad groans for all for a name move swayed on not conceded by majority of russians to be that important for them like changing the constitution that's why the president came with a whole bag of different gifts to different social groups and categories but i don't think they have these. they have more important development then they want. to lead and so the problem i see is small that much connected with a fed. the government is giving or is promising to give population now but with a fact how exactly a population in the whole. quat in decision making to take part in managing themselves by themselves without not waiting for something

close gifts like c one of major thinks wages not that much discussed at the time of this transformation is the fact that they have unlike in the conceit to shun the new one will not in the moments they have self administration is separate the brain but not the part of state management we build your respect i mean local governments and russia is 6. trimboli extremely weak and sometimes extremely corrupted i mean you are talking about as if major powers are being taken from them when in fact those powers have never been executed properly but to the point you know people governing themselves i have had numerous accidents on the show who have claimed that the issue of bracks it should have never been put to a vote in britain simply because people are not knowledgeable enough to make such a complicated that economic and political decision just and to fly and here you are

suggesting that. the russian people should decide everything by themselves i mean that in every country there is a realisation that certain powers being delegated to specialists to improve lives in those respective countries like some of you are absolutely right when saying that self administration is extremely weak but it's not myself it's the constitution my constitution and to your constitution which proclaims local self administration as separate branch of power not the part of state management a matter of the fact is they have to joining all i would say 25 or even 30 years of development. up a levels being the federal government or even the regional governments trying to

take. money and the wall for a local self administration but. coming back to your previous point on democrats i cannot see any at all the way of democratising they come true except for practicing democracy local elections absolutely but integrating the local administrations into the power structure is the going to put an end to that in fact it may empower those low. administrations and give them the resources now i want to move on from that particular point to a larger one about big gifts you mentioned you know all putin did in the beginning of his addresses just to hand out some presents to you various groups but i see that in the in a very different light i think what we are discussing here is a major shift in the country's economic policy from us charity from the accumulation of resource this huge a more proactive spending on those resources particularly on social and

infrastructural projects and whether you like it or not the central government in russia has been pretty successful at saving over the last couple of years do you think it would be just as a fact if that spending would you like it to be just as effective at spending of course i would like it to be very effective in spending money and promoting economic development in the contre the only reason they have to it's also both is can they have to with constituents from by the way with a flag that in the contre like russia you cannot manage the whole big contra consisting of very different regions from one in the same sentence so i would say that in my view is the country is there in watch centralised over you need to round eyes snow sports and did dick live it will go through and that's why

i. cannot imagine how exactly any extreme leaf and manager can decide what is leading the far east what is needed to grow what is needed so that i actually leave in russia and i can see and you can see that in polls after pulls develop in regard us if we polling organization does it there's a huge swallowing of selectivity in this country volunteering organisations people coming to the streets to protest against it. environmental hazards against construction what have you this is unprecedented in this country isn't in nobody's talking about strangling dots kind of activity in fact whatever for the only thing that putin sad in his address is that he wants to bring the stayed in contact and incorporation of it those groups on the whole to you i would rather not discuss my age era but let's say i'm. i've been on the spot it's long enough to see changes at least in russian so the room i am. going to.

say is that no no we do see much more see they. actually leave to this country i am speaking to you from my personal experience i'm sure from london if it appears to be a different picture but the way it's felt here on the ground is very very different and i think it's very uplifting as well my point is that we do not hear of real. grassroots political activism and this is due to the pressure the government on to local self administration mountain regions you yourself wrote about mosco city elections scandalous most elections last year and you know that they were and number of very prominent civil activists who were running in those elections people like you to go down in there who has been a major change force for change in moscow wasn't

a lower tier wasn't allowed but she continued her activism that elections to raise her profile and there are many more people who are following in her footsteps this system is designed because those activists who have to be pretty much effective at municipal level none of them have been allowed to put to sleep we see to do my elections although most. small boy the away which can define anything. well i hope that's going to change with the next elections and there are already signs that they are far more political representation different political representation. at the local levels and the regional levels you know that elections united russia party these prague kremlin dominant party is no longer capable of winning elections whenever it wants. well 1st of all with do no more here if they are a little a actions for. regional capitals except for 7 cases

out of 857 cases that constitute the biggest cities in russia where the majority of the population leave no no no no locks on that is to speak of both more school and state business but it's different because they are subject to feed this regime so it's not to vote directly with or a little if it's a bold gubernatorial elections by the way we're not totally. staged by the kremlin so if. we see him for he says when those who pointed by puts him has been rejected by popular vote and 20. the kremlin did it by its biased in order to avoid the real live in gubernatorial election send this way i'm saying that this system moves in the wrong way it doesn't play a 3000 seat is

a litigious took the ball in order to make the system more efficient let me bring you back to the issue of the cabinet because we only have a few minutes left and president putin is known for his knack for balancing in previous cabinet ministers where almost always counterbalance by vice premier's representing different groups or different color within the elites the current government in this regard looks far more how much cine as i think it's probably the most liberal government that or the most technocratic government that russia has had in years or in decades. how would you explain the obvious fact that there are at least checks and balances that you discussed earlier and not really much visible in the new cabinet well this is a different case i would say they have those. kinds of balancing you've mentioned is good if you want to keep step with squaw and certain balance between live groups

like it has been made on the prime minister meets the needs of now with the kremlin wants the government to do something and that's why it looks much more like a team i would not call it liberal i would not quality even technocratic it's it consists of well relatively good man the joes who are pretty well prepared to realize strategists the road by below will suffer and some some of the guys can they acted with they do this isn't over equanimity and when you seek to do something. something would be what keeping puttin in power or pressure you know is just an idea making people's lives better no i think the role of the government is to well promote more d.c. shouldn't see governmental spending so we do see in the national project swayed on

not realized as it has been plant during these 2 years the problem i see is that this government is in my view much more keep a ball to be more effective in doing what it's ordered to do the problem is that it will move in a little bit from different directions so it will be a stated goal in the main and the idea is to make states investment more more effective that's good but it would be better to hear if private investment while it may mr petrofsky have to leave it there i really appreciate your time with us today . and thank you for watching syriana next sunday and was a part of. our .

welcome to max kaiser financial survival guide. looking forward to your pension account. yonks this is what happens to pensions in britain don't let this happen you watch kaiser report. was. 7 was. was.

well the leaders of dignitaries attend a holocaust memorial ceremony in jerusalem head of monday's anniversary marking 75 years since the liberation of auschwitz we hear from a survivor of the nazi death camp. without the. my mother or other prisoners. the so-called all detective cia torture techniques including waterboarding testifies at a military tribunal hearing says he has no regrets. and the death toll from the corona virus outbreak in china reaches 18 according to state media with more than 2 and a half 1000 people infected.