they think about goods and services being exchanged between countries and the invest for chapter of a trade agreement is about something very different but won't when investment leads to toxic manufacturing that destroys sacred sites or ruins the environment. that means local communities that are being poisoned and if they object if they do anything that the company feels is interrupting their profits they can they sue. the nationals are taking on the whole nation still of the horse is trying to use i.s.t.'s to stop oregon from implementing new tobacco regulations aimed at cutting domestic smoking rates a french company sued egypt because egypt raise its minimum wage democratic choice of a trunk. joining us as we try to find. a

low and welcome to cross talk where all things considered i'm peter lavelle but 2020 presidential campaign is beginning to look a lot like the 2016 race but this time around the insurgent is bernie sanders who is not even a member of the democratic party voters again are not interested in establishment politicians in fact they appear to be rebelling against them will we see a trump sanders showdown. crosstalk in the 2020 alexion i'm joined by my guest lee camp in washington he is they host and head writer of the comedy new show. acted tonight on our team america

as well as author of the new book bullet points and punch lines in milwaukee we have jennifer to master she is a inner tourney and policy analyst and in syracuse we crossed through how we hawkins he is a candidate for the green party nomination for u.s. president or across the rules in effect that means he can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate we can do like my analogy. this year 2016 we had an insurgent in the g.o.p. . vanquished all of them and beat got the nomination and won now we have bernie which in my opinion it was stolen from in 2016 will he prevail in 2020 because from c n n m s n b c in the democrat the d.n.c. and everybody else is against him again and small donors keep giving him money so what's in the cards for bernie this time around go ahead lee. yeah you're absolutely right i mean it is shaping up a lot like 2016 especially on the democratic side just fill in joe biden instead of

hillary clinton and everything that we were horrified to see in the last election when the democratic side is shaping up exactly the same they've changed nothing all they did was push the superdelegates to the 2nd vote in the convention but if they can have a brokered convention all those superdelegates all those elite democrats will then put in their candidate tom prez just announced who he'd like to see running the convention and it is all the same neo liberal and wall street goons that have been there it is it is bringing the cockroaches out again to fill the convention i mean the media is using the same tricks against bernie sanders but the difference now is that bernie sanders has a large impressive machine set up to deal with this more so than he did last time he's got the most donors the largest audiences coming out and it'll be interesting to see whether they can steal it and they being the corporate democrats steal it from him yet again as they did last time it's interesting jennifer let me go to you in milwaukee i mean you know i am everybody knows who watches this program i'm

a conservative here but i'm really interested in process here and i look at the democratic party in every single barrier they put up against bernie and not that i'm rooting for bernie i'm more i'm rooting for fairness fairness that's all because i think it would be a very interesting showdown between these 2 guys sanderson trump here why is he so appealing in my writing my introduction is that there's a rejection of the establishment go ahead absolutely you're right and that's one of the biggest the biggest downfalls i think that the democratic establishment has seen the establishment in general i mean republican and democrat that's what helped trump win that's what's giving bernie so much support now and even if you want to say that bernie is the end to this isn't trump in many ways he's not they're very similar in the fact that they're trying to go up against the establishment they speak out against the establishment and a lot of what's been exposed. even against donald trump is the same step that tried to dismantle bernie sanders in 2016 so people are starting to see that and donald

trump himself has been calling out the d.n.c. propaganda push against bernie sanders he's donald trump himself has been doing that he's noting that so even people that might. but are still listening to him that might be wanting to vote democrat are starting to give sanders a 2nd look now but that is what america is desperate for to see the dismantling of the establishment that's been in washington you know that's a very good point howie. i was told by my producers that you don't really believe that bertie sanders was a socialist could you explain what you mean by that. yeah the traditional definition of socialism is economic democracy to social order to all the major means of production in bernie's more in the tradition of which you call social democracy in europe or new deal liberalism in the united states where you don't. take over the big corporations and have the workers and consumers running or you tax them to fund your social programs the problems with that for

a socialist like me is that you leave concentrated economic power in place and yet translates into concentrated political power and so they can undermine those social programs and we've seen that as social democracy in europe and new deal liberalism in the united states is transformed into social liberalism which means you are against discrimination on the basis of race and gender and so forth what you have is new liberal economic policy which creates growing economic inequality so it's unstable from our point of view ok so that you know ok we'll get into the identity politics in the 2nd part of the program the thing that's very very important i think is could be used against bernie already has only let me go back to you what is the appeal here because of course you know that the g.o.p. and the right will always say socialism it never work again it's fine i've heard it all my life ok and it's not actually a very interesting conversation in my opinion what i think isn't interesting is why

people are attracted to it because i think that you know we have the greatest economy in the world well maybe by macro indicators yes but i think a lot i've come across a lot of people that don't feel it's a good economy for them ok instead of these macro numbers wife are people attracted to bernie explain it. yeah i mean well how is right this is a bernese not doing it not speaking for anything other than what say sweden has which is not socialism it's a form of capitalism it has a yeah there are social programs but you don't you don't hear a lot of people talking about of the military is our military is the largest socialism entity in the world i mean it is taxpayer dollars funding something so you know and what does that tell you a question what is the appeal of bernie sanders he's talking about all the millions across this country that are destroyed by our health care costs that are there that are living in poverty we have 4050000000 people in poverty while 3 people have the same amount of wealth as the bottom 50 percent of the country it's incredibly

unsustainable it's incredibly unequal and it cannot go on like this so i think the appeal of bernie is it's very obvious people across this country are suffering in the corporate democrats do not offer anything they agree with the republicans on 8090 percent of everything or issues of this country so it's very clear why people would stand up and fight for something different that actually gives them something to live for it's a very good point let me go back to jennifer in milwaukee one of the things you know again looking at the campaigns ok not necessarily policy will go become back to that later but it seems to me that there are 2 authentic candidates and all of this trump and sanders they are authentic they have been saying more or less the same thing for a very very long time you have biden and warren who complete frauds ok i mean elizabeth warren was a republican when he was 47 percent maybe she was an indian at the time i don't know but you know that is this this issue of authenticity and i think that is very

attractive to people too and it's they have trump and bernie sanders go ahead jennifer. absolutely and i think you know what we're talking about is the same demographic the same base that is perhaps supporting byrd and sanders these are the younger generations those who want to see more help more government funding but really who are a fair afraid and fearful of struggling economically it's very similar to the demographics supporting trump those in middle america who have been forgotten those right here in wisconsin i mean a lot of those people are the same ones in fact at the trump rally that was just in milwaukee most of the supporters out there most of the protesters out there with all of the trump supporters are also burning supporters was it was a fairly peaceful process here wisconsin but you're seeing a lot of the same similarities and supporters and i think that's what's going to need to be the distinction and the distinguishing mark between trump and sanders if sanders becomes the nominee against all odds is that is to show you know how are

you any different you both want a dismantle the establishment and frankly even if he is conservative even if he is republican trump has been doing better things for middle america for the middle to lower class of the middle class and for african-americans for minorities and so i think people are starting to see that in sanders is going to have to show either a distinction or how perhaps they can work together despite what happened or if he can continue to enhance some of these policies that really have helped well what america what it comes up by the standards everyone knows their fraud i mean the i mean how do you and i would say they're authentic and they're both outsiders i think that's probably the only thing that. i i think you know one of the things i've been fascinated with over the past few years is the political spectrum in the political the way we talk about politics because i would say that trump and bernie sanders are both populists in their own way and i think it is a rejection of the establishment both in different ways go ahead joe. well i think that's right and i think the only thing that i think we haven't ever says enough is

bernie's program is very popular with the people we mention health care well but he's also today's got a speech out about inane our endless wars in the subtitle is you know list stuff given the terrorist what they want and i think that is very popular in the climate issue i mean i'd like to see trump calls it a hoax with the democrats actors if it's a hoax except for bernie sanders is green new deal program is serious and i'm somebody who's been campaigning for this i 1st campaign in 2010 running for governor in new york or a green deal 1st candidate in this country to do so and you know bernie serious i think is a little slow we got some liberals on what to do well that and the climate movement knows that bernie sanders is the serious candidate among the democrats so i think dex is appeal and i don't worry since the early 1970 s.

when he actually was a 3rd party candidate and i watched him uber mine and he's popular even with conservatives yes because they feel like he's for the people he shows up at town all the answers are questions and so for them socialist is like some people are catholic some people are baptist some people have got that is earl is a socialist made how you know how i think you know they were i think it's very and i think it's a interesting way you just said to me i'm a conservative but i like listening to bernie sanders because 1st of all he knows what he's talking about you can have an interaction with him he actually comes up with some answers that i don't always agree with actually very rarely agree with but again it's kind of this authenticity here i was 30 seconds leave let me go to you before going to why doesn't bernie fight back because that's what the republicans like about trump 25 seconds go ahead. well i think he is fighting back in his own way but do you agree he's not fighting back about the way the system is rigged the way the d.n.c. rigs the primaries and they told him last time they made it very clear that if you

are going to run we will not accept you claiming that this is not a legitimate election and they stopped him from ever doing that again. ok well then you know again i think it could be to his advantage to maneuver his campaign away from these people that are just really have a road record of failure and indifference to the voter ok i'm going to jump in here we go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the 20000 election state but. during the great depression which i'm old enough to remember there was most of my family were working class there wasn't it was bed you know much worse objective listen today but there was an expectation that things were going to get better.

there was a real sense of hopefulness there isn't today today's america was shaped by the 10 principles of concentration of wealth and power. reduced democracy at tax. engineer elections manufacture consent and other principles according to. one set of rules for the rich opposite. that's what happens when you put her into the. sector of will switch will is dedicated to increasing power for itself just as you'd expect one of the most influential intellectuals of our time speaks about the modern civilization of america. i actually don't think monopolies per se are the problem it's monopolistic access to

credit or to politicians and probably both the crony financial ism crony capitalism that's the big problem. welcome back across like we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle for a month we're discussing the 2020 election. ok let's go back to jennifer in milwaukee one thing that trumps maybe this time around is that you know he's he's indifferent to identity politics and most of his backers feel the same way i have to say i feel the same way as well here but it's not playing out the same way in the democrat democratic party when elizabeth warren did that despicable thing in conjunction with c.n.n. trying to accuse bernie is being a massage and it's a sexist and all the usual litany of things that you hear but don't add to the conversation how is identity politics going to in your opinion looking at centers

how are they going to keep are they going to keep throwing barriers in front of him digging up video from the 1970 s. and stuff like that i mean it gets really tiresome doesn't it would you rather talk about policy but they don't because they have nothing to talk about go ahead jennifer absolutely and i of 100 percent agree with you that's been the main problem with the democrats and i think there are a lot of people that's why this walkaway movement has come so big because of the d.n.c. because of the democratic establishment and their desire and intent to only run on identity politics they accuse you of being racist zina phobic against women and everything that you can imagine in the book they will throw titles that people rather than actually arguing the issues legitimately and i mean it even catches people adjournment honest authentic people like bernie sanders off guard when he can be when he could be cut that way by a by elizabeth warren after on hot mike you know accusing him i think you just called me a liar on national t.v. she knew they would probably be she knew there would be people listening but you do

these things to get these clips to paint sanders as a kind of massaging as against all women so they can only run on identity politics and when you have authentic people that are trying. ron on the same democratic platform even if that's not what they've always stood for but they have to because that's the way the bipartisan thing in america works either democrat or republican when bernie has to play that game and they're going to come at him with the full force because they can't beat him on the policies they can't meet him on the populous vote they can't beat him on all of that so they're going to beat him on identity politics but keep in mind this is also a democratic primary where we now have what however many 15 to 16 white candidates and all the other minority candidates are going out rapidly so i mean it's just the hippocratic party that doesn't care about the policies and can't argue that yeah how i get for all the talk of diversity that you got joe still i mean i goodness i mean it's is so laughable ok but they keep pounding away at it and they get joe. what is in your opinion because it's going to repeat kind of out of what i said in

the 1st part of the program as a conservative i actually like listening to bernie i like listening to interviews with him i'm interested in his ideas i'm always interested in how he wants to pay for things and i'm really glad that you brought up the issue about these endless wasteful dangerous wars here you saw what they did to tulsi gabbert i mean god bless her soul for speaking the truth i mean accusing her of being treasonous ok you see that same thing going to be played out against bernie because he's doing really well and i think that over the next few weeks of he continues this way he will find himself in a position to get the nomination even if it's in a brokered convention go ahead. you know no doubt just likely weaponize identity politics you know elizabeth warren ploy it was not about. discrimination against women from a sergeant it was about getting bernie sanders that it really wasn't about you can't work in close unity unless you deal with those problems so i didn't any

politics has its place but it's a way of getting rid of the discrimination and exclusion and you know bringing people together that's legitimate but when it's. weapon as now then it divides us on the other side you've got to throw up i mean he's either identity politics he's white identity politics going minorities immigrants muslims and so forth so that is how he weaponize his identity politics in in the same thing will happen on a foreign policy question are there weaponize. any criticism of u.s. foreign policy we have this global military empire they don't have bases around the world we're actively involved in at least 7 wars special operations is over the place and you criticize that in a call you a russian assett that happened to our previous green party presidential candidate jill stein recently. hillary clinton when she without naming her went after it's all said you have it also went after our candidate jill stein and without any

evidence that the russians and the republicans are groom and a 3rd party candidate well so i expect to be called a russian asset yeah i get so it's oh it's ok how we because these people don't deal in the world the facts i do ok lee what is the fascination with joe biden i mean he would bernie standards on the face of it i mean they the small donations he gets he thinks not reliant on the d.n.c. i mean what is it which was wrong with these people do you want to win or not because sometimes and i've said this before on my program it's i get the feeling they just abolition democrats would prefer to lose to trump than have bernie win go ahead lee yeah i think you're absolutely right they would they prefer trump to win because trump at the end of the day still represents corporate america and wall street i mean he claims i mean this is one point i disagree with you on that he's authentic i think is more of

a populist and he will call out the system unlike your average republican but in terms of being authentic he claims he's going to help the working man and then he gets a giant tax cut to the wealthiest americans. and he claims he put out an ad in his last campaign about how bankers rule the system then he surrounded himself with bankers you've got goldman sachs running the treasury so i don't think that's authentic but you're absolutely right that they would rather lose to trump because he is not gone that wall street really he is not really corporate america whereas bernie says he would he says he would change that system and 2 make it more about the average person rather than just a giant extraction process that extracts all of the wealth to a tiny number of individuals in this country and so i think you're absolutely right they would rather joe biden lose to donald trump than bernie sanders when you know jennifer i want to kind of clarify what i meant by authentic i'm going to stick with it and the clarification is because i'm actually agreeing with lead to some extent here. trump is authentic because he you he talks to people that eat people

understand him his base understands him he speaks in a binocular binocular that they get now you know you get these like don lemon some people like that will say everything is races everything is massaging his i'm from the midwest i grew up in the midwest ok and i listen to trump and i'll kind of snicker like lots of bit of an exaggeration and i think you got that date wrong there but i get what you mean i get what you mean and that's what people like about him ok you know he would be good the elect a choir boy ok everybody knows that ok i mean that that's his greatest advantage of being he says things that i just i cringe i absolutely grange but then again i know who he is you see what i mean. exactly and i think that's what the american people are desperate for after 8 years of brock obama i.e. the guy who can talk for 35 minutes and you have no idea if he made

a single point the american people were desperate for somebody that they could actually understand as to how he's point on on being called russian asked that i got to say and i'll i'll promise you this after the moeller and the. and i think america is pretty much done with hillary clinton calling people russian assets if you spend that much money and actually find no evidence of collusion so you're going to be just fine we'll make sure of that but but all of this i think american people have been desperate for somebody to talk straight to then for a lot of the establishment to go out i mean there were reports that came out that when barack obama was in office he got rid of all the white house press and only had his own inner team so a lot of people were confused they felt the transparency in america was completely decimated and as you said to the midwest most people in the middle class a lot of these people just felt totally left out of these big d.c. politics and political games and have gotten tired of the posse there's pockets see on every side all the time and i think that's one of the main concerns even if you bring up i myself yes i'm conservative yes i'm for i approve of policies what he's

done but at the same time i do also love listening to bernie sanders i appreciate the sanders a lot i pushed his point but one of the things that people i think still get concerned about is the fact that he does say that he's anti-establishment but then even social as a democratic party is or even the swedish model which is good is still going in a way that's going to get a lot of taxpayer money to the current establishment that hasn't yet been dismantled and that is what the american people want to see they want to make sure trump says he's doing it we're trying we're starting to see some changes being announced within the f.b.i. the d.o.j. but we don't know with what's going on in congress right now whether that establishment we trust that even if we trust bernie sanders plan jennifer i wonder if adam shift even knows the moeller report came out watching this but snippets of the impeachment trial that i did watch ok i have actually a life and a job i don't need to waste my time on that how we how is politics changing how is

bernie sanders changing the tone if it all ok because this is his 2nd bite at the apple i watched very carefully 2000 see trump in founders were the only 2 people i watched and i'm doing it again how is bernie changing or not changing the political barometer go ahead. well i think because he's getting so much support he's bringing attention to the policies he's advocating and changing it from you know of the sort of nice and personal attacks in the horse race to the real issues yeah you know i think that's why he's getting support and despite all the things that the establishment in the democratic party can do you know the carcass counting the hand counts or the voting machines or how the convention is set up he can overwhelm that you know like trump overwhelm the steps and on the republican side it go to several you know less say they're going to have to overwhelm the barriers. and so i think

that's given a lot of people oh ok well you know howie if you listen again listen to adam schiff they get it that the vote is too dangerous to give to citizens it's simply too dangerous here then let me go to lead here we hypothetical. what if the d.n.c. denies bernie sanders again what will happen to the democratic party go ahead. well i think people need to start talking and planning for that and be prepared to stand up and demand their votes be heard there are just so many blocks to getting a legitimate election and i went through them all in 2016 day after day that the 200000 people purged in brooklyn that was admitted to in court the d.n.c. also admitted in court a year afterwards that they are allowed to rig the primaries however they see fit and so i think the people of america that want chains of one something different they don't want these endless wars and this endless corporate exploitation i think they need to plan for for how they are going to deal with this system you know if

this is stolen in the same way it was in 2016 and they need to be ready to protest and get active and demanded that they get a legitimate vote because you know i large harvard studies show that the u.s. has the least a legitimate election system in the western world i mean we are not a democracy we're not a democratic republic we're an oligarchy and people hopefully will wake up to their well some point hopefully as these things are the most important thing in these troubled times the most important thing is to have the vote and people need to use it many thanks to my guest in washington milwaukee and in syracuse and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time and remember cross talk rules.

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