now only 4 candidates are still in the labor leadership race emily thornberry lisa nandi the beck along billie and couldn't run away favorite secure starmer. alex looks at their prospects in turn with political commentator steve richards and former labor economic adviser richard murphy. so steve richard welcome to the show that looking at this this race for the labor leadership. lisa nandy rebecca long billy stark there we're going to start from the the outsider to the fever so we'll start with emily thought 100 to one her odds no we're not even sure she'll get to the starting gate in a boat 10 days time what if she added something to this contest in a way it's very surprising that she has struggled to to make a big impact if a year ago i think most political commentators if they were asked who had a real chance of winning the leadership she would have been very much up there. and

it appears that what has happened really is that kiss star who will talk about later has basically stolen her constituency before she even had a chance to address it so even though she is well known she has been shadow foreign secretary which is a very senior post in the shadow cabinet. has stood in a prime minister's questions which is a real test of being leader of the opposition. it appears that even almost before the race formally began she didn't have enough of a constituency of support to propel her forward and hasn't really had momentum which is of course a key element of the campaign and the target them with on his argument that she's best to borders johnson the dispatch box a lot so he would appeal to the liberal membership that overemphasizes the importance of the dispatch box in there very many ways it is important in the westminster bubble but in the world outside maybe not so much the world outside

remembers her from mistakes the white and man issues that he's also one of those people who seems to fall into a category of politicians of those who are destined to get near high office but never the leader she has all the qualities to be this he put it a good. shadow foreign secretary she might be a good foreign secretary but would she be a good leader i think people have their doubts about that and i can understand that it doesn't appear she has that ability to pull people together and a leader has to do that and she seems to be lacking that element and people sense it she's not winning the supporters a result so i stopped listen and did the wig and then i mean she's got some good reviews for some of the interview she's doing she's taking to one some of the the odds at the present moment is that too long a place big failing she did for it called in there is an element which still says you should be able to accommodate him and if you look at it from a purely analytical point of view could she pull everyone together i suspect

there's a real doubt in people's minds about that ability and that's where a president fails if he has a chance of being a very senior member of the new shadow cabinet when there's another leadership election which inevitably there will be she might do very well so i know then peel it lisa land because she's still a man of jo's a surprise packet in the race i can see legally potential lisa nandy. in a way that i didn't expect to you know a few months ago i can see why she is doing as well as she is she started as the least well. but has forced her much the most impressive and interesting of the campaigns to have been that unfortunate remark in catalonia because people draw the line that successful socialists governments so go back to old ladies across the head not even improbable not was how you're going to hear and that shows i mean she claims she was misinterpreted kind of read back what she said that wasn't entirely

misinterpreted and that shows i think that highlights the kind of. all useless of some of the thinking she fell into a trap and that would be a big bump because labor in some way or another has to deal with that scottish problem i don't believe you can just write off scotland if you're part of the labor party most of the time she's been rather all thora to or and this is as important give the impression of being caught 1st so that brings us to rebecca alone billy the carbonate kind of the in the very elderly stage of this recession was actually the favorite trading even money at $1.00 time was drifted out to freedom one 4th to one of those books of cause gone the wrong way a rep really or could come but so far she has proved not to be a great campaign at. least in and the appears authoritative whether she is or not is a different issue rebecca bailey has has failed to convince

a wider part of that membership that she has those legally qualities so i think it's a failing in her candidacy and so far an inability to escape stereotype i'm told that she hates being called the continuity corben least a candidate but if you hate it you've got to get away from it and she has a pretty good so would you agree with her and i want us over there were still because she's gotten teed to get to the little stages of the story is still time for for a comeback other southern sage is hitting a straight after a shaky start well i've known rebecca long a little bit for some time i stress and a little bit but we have been there and actually probably for as long as i've been seeing listen any interaction if you'd asked me several years ago which of those 2 i thought would be labor leader it would have been nice and ended by the way and that would still be my view no i don't see the leadership qualities in rebecca long

bailey and i feel that actually she has been frankly given a bad hand by her supporters i mean 2 weeks after the election. we didn't hear a word from her even though everyone knew that was going to be a leadership campaign she felt as though she was under control not allowed to be her own person it all feels as though the central machine has been controlling what she's been delivering and i don't think labor's their membership is very keen on that i think agree with steve i don't think we can presume there is a typical labor member for labor membership that i need to do me the members i'm not a member but i meet lots of people who are and they are there are diverse in their interests we go right back from the old style brown and social democrat except for people that are blairite still and there are of course the cold and east and so there is a very broad spectrum of people does she fit into any of those categories comfortably does she have the charisma to actually persuade those categories as well so as

a candidate i don't think she's been the person to carry forward the called minister fled so that brings us to the runaway favorite surf kill style of my regular i think it of the realms of. a london m.p. in a time when labor are struggling in the lawyer for eliminating the scum and probably how course to regret accepting that night with every now and again the context of the labor leadership where he never obviously refers to himself as the kid this is really interesting as well because again to some extent challenges stereotypes so like a year ago everybody was saying we've already discussed a this labor party would only vote for a cotton type figure be next time it would have to be a woman so whenever kids stars name came up it's not charts it will be a woman he must want to stand instead he's running away with it as you said north london lawyer with a knighthood and that just suggests to me but again the impact of that colossal

defeat in december house hit home some in the media in britain a sale. i haven't come to terms with that still pretending that defeat didn't happen if that was the case would not be as far ahead as he is they see in him a way to be credible or to figure out. who might no one can tell in advance who might be the leader lee figure to lead them toward some kind of recovery and that's why he's doing much better i suspect than any political commentator would have predicted a year ago so richard does suck your style more of the gravitas you were alluding to earlier on i think the knighthood is quite interesting in this context and i suspect he's got more reasons to be grateful for it than steve suggests because he packed the knighthood does say he did something real he was director of public

prosecutions he is a cutie he did take some cases which were thought to be very significant by the left admittedly some but they weren't so keen on but the point is he has a track record of competence and that is a badge of that so in the sense of the knighthood is simply i done something else in life i've managed a big organization i know how to deliver this stand out makes him stand out from the crowd and i believe is actually what the big differences because labor is desperate for somebody who can run it and let's be totally honest the last couple of leaders have not actually stood out from the crowd in that way ed miliband was a career from very young age politician he had never done anything else jeremy had spent time on the back benches in effect of opposition and never run anything here's a man who's actually achieved i believe that is the whole basis of his appeal but almost any policy so long as he sensible in many ways is being quite cautious on

policy doesn't wolf stick comfortably with him because he can say i can deliver whatever it is so long. this is a shoo in for the leadership and we've only got one what if this one was yes but you always qualify for dick should sit british politics these days no one can tell for sure because it looks like one sentence and. as close is that is to a shoo in yes. joining us after the break where alex will ask our panel how do labor fit into the new political landscape of bricks it. television propaganda machine propaganda outlet propaganda tools we are getting information.

that can change the world. you tube videos the. last few days is the longest now without. question brushes russia russia russia is. believed to be that they were actually russia today and i'm really happy to join you see you then on r g. 4 are so proud and still. are just getting the numbers. why have you not shut down our t.v. on you tube it's a propaganda machine mr walker. in

this community there are people who believe that it's ok to sell practically food on the table it's really hard there are no jobs and you see the kids ask and as a parent. i can come up with lots of arguments there's a lot of conflict in the game between the 2 most of the conflict i would say revolves around money and most of them money is made. close one on each other does he know each other is good business the state of california alone makes $6000000000.00 a year of prison complex just to get some point in your life where. you don't care about your so you don't care mind anything. you know world of big movies a lot of things and conspiracy it's time to wake up to dig deeper to hit the stories that mainstream media refuses to tell more than ever we need to be smarter

we need to stop slamming the door on the back and shouting past each other it's time for critical thinking it's time to fight for the middle for the truth the time is now we're watching closely watching the hawks. welcome back that are 4 candidates left in the race to become labor leader i mean the finishing post of the opposition dispatch box in the house of commons but is there any chance of the new leader leading in labor a viable strong enough to 2nd the grip of prime minister boris johnson alex continues this discussion with steve richards and that should murphy. so professor richard murphy we reconcile your stammer at this stage that looks like he's a very very justified heavy odds on favorite but the bigger question is going to be prime minister is it possible to come from the defeat of last desire. to get to the

prime ministership over the course of this parliamentary term that's not something that's entirely down to cure starmer of course that's not down to any member of the labor party a lot of that is down to what boris johnson does and whether he's competent or not remember the old rule governments lose elections oppositions don't win them so if johnson is a disaster the question is is here starmer the man who could replace him if could johnson is excessive doesn't matter what his stomach does because johnson is going to be in power for 10 years so the question is can he actually now johnson down easy able to exploit those failures now. i'm torn on that issue because i don't think that he has starmer is the best dispatch box operator he's a bit dull to be blunt and even looks a bit dull when he's at the dispatch box he's not an animated figure but he is

coldly analytic and he does therefore see the issues if he can formulate the strategy and react on his feet which is something that's almost generally called was not good at the prime minister's question time generally called him was awful but the follow up question here starmer is a natural for that role as a q c if he can do that then he has the ability to get johnson on the ropes but it's only if johnson gives him the chance a kid star has the potential once things go wrong johnson if he has that killer instinct then he has the ability probably to actually achieve it but all of those are conditions to be taken into consideration so yes he could win the next general election but there's a lot of ifs on the way so could suffer. starmer blore bottles johnson of course will little quite a bit of help there's a very good quote from a former well known now dead labor cabinet minister who. would

much about who said of margaret thatcher power made her beautiful now what barbara meant by that was you cannot tell in advance whether the crown is going to suit a figure until they become a leader many people thought margaret thatcher was going to be a terrible leader that it wouldn't the crown wouldn't fit but power made her beautiful with you disagree with what she did so in advance with starman it's very hard to tell as it is with all candidates whether power will make him beautiful i suspect that in some respects he will struggle. i think parts of the media will go for him and he will find that difficult. and that he will find it frustrating bringing to life a project when so much focus is going to be on the government labor can't defeat them in the house of commons the government. because of that majority it can

announce policies and no one will pay much attention because it's not going to be in power for the next few years so it's very very tough whether we have a moment of catastrophe for this government who knows you don't know until the catastrophe happens but there are certainly going to be moments of great internal tension within this ruling conservative party and a clever leader of the opposition will be there to exploited and then turn things around just like your boat journey corpulent a year or so is tireless assume that your stomach becomes lubov a little journalism leaves a lot of time looking at the his successor being demonized and looking at a successor still perhaps in the horns of a. a european will leave the permit themself for a wry smile those who said it was all about his leadership no because he's basically german government for all his epic flaws as a leader is

a nice bloke and i don't think we'll get any malevolent thrill that his successor is. suffering but i think the key to whether he or whoever wins this contest succeeds is the few successful leaders have always addressed the wide question which you did when you were leader of the s.n.p. you didn't just go around it's got to say if you vote s.n.p. you will get independents you constantly said why you were in favor if pierce on the can say why he should be prime minister why labor should be back in power and begin to convince the electorate he may well win but if he doesn't even try he will lose a little more fit is there are more fundamental thing even than that which goes beyond the personality of a social democratic opposition leader beyond whether you can compress sure your policy aspirations into a few understandable who just it was a crisis for for social democracy in general or below that aren't that many social

democratic parties unless they've got something else going for them which are a willing across europe a labor become one of the few successful social democratic parties the answer to that question is really down to economics now i would say that i'm a political economist but i happen to think it's true and one of the things that worries me about this labor leadership election is that we have 3 lawyers and a former charity worker in the campaign and none of them of particular flair for economics and that is not particularly encouraging because labor has to have a credible economic narrative because the writer slaughtered it 3 years on the basis of we've got to balance the books because that's right because we're like a household it is. isn't the government is not like a hell sold because it controls the money supply and if i could it doesn't create enough money by actually lending it into existence there's not enough to keep the economy going but the point is they don't need to actually break away from this

idea that the balance budget is the key thing and that the government can't responsibly be the deposit holder for private savings which is all that government borrowing is now there's one country in europe that has done this quite well and curiously it's portugal where portugal has broken the stereotype it has lived within the constraints of trying to be imposed upon it by the e.c.b. in others and it has gone to be austerity nonetheless system and he's been over there studying that example to see how they built a narrative around this more successfully than anyone else to actually persuade people that austerity was a disaster it has been a disaster even the effort he think it's a disaster but he's got to turn that into political success and there's a long way to go before he persuades people up and down the country that what the political commentary i think is a disaster is actually a disaster in the eyes of the person in the red war. was to look at scotland for a 2nd disc understand why

a social democratic party the s.n.p. have been so successful scotland well as another social term across the park to the labor party have gone from the heights to to a single solitary m.p. left is that really occupies my i'm trying to walk why that's happening i'm sure it will occupies mine because i said as i said earlier i don't think he. and i suspect anyone who becomes leader of the labor party if it's not him would just say oh let's write off scotland i just because the implication of that is against labor must make in england are huge in a way i think that goes beyond the blair era so it will try and he would try and work out what has happened in scotland i don't. i think for one second he's got any of the arts as to it at the moment there will be a deep search for what possibly could bring about some kind of recovery

but given call binns uncharacteristic optimism being wholly unfounded it just shows the scale of the challenge for whoever takes over the leadership of the labor party in april so lastly steve and richard to see president reagan had sleepless afternoons well what all crisis was one of those daunting promised johnson which of the labor candidate would give him sleepless off that newton's who does he not want to be a labor leader the only one that he would not want is kid stuff and i think that's one reason why the labor party membership want him i don't want to dismiss the others i just don't think they have the ability to hold him to account in the way that his star has and we may be wrong but he looks like the person who could have that ability to literally nail him down no leader wants to be made to look uncomfortable wrong forced into a difficult position with the smart rejoinder the dispatch box or wherever else and i think his time has that potential and that's why the restaurant so will be most

frightened of him when dominic cummings was whispering in the prime minister's ear but leave a little shit i think most broadly at the moment dominic cummings boris johnson and others are really worried about the labor leadership race at all they've got power almost to themselves at the moment are focusing on how to use that and boy are they using it in unusual ways. as far as they are addressing it i think richard is right this clearly within boris johnson a sort of fear of scrutiny he doesn't like interviews he didn't like the last house of commons very much where he didn't have a majority and i think he would be worried about to start at his. most forensic and there's nobody behind bars johnson saying remember your mortal. not at the moment i think this is a number 10 with. well there's no leader of the opposition really of there until

the selection is completed they've got a big majority much of the media don't own that. whereas tony blair had always to face gordon brown as a counter of the treasury number 10 faces no quit in a cabinet minister so the moment there is a mighty number tad and no real opposition until this leadership contest is resolved steve richards richard murphy thank you very much indeed thank you thank you. many commentators particularly those sympathetic to labor are weighing in about the current labor leadership being in denial they argue that corbin and corporatism was unsaleable to the electorate the context that titian as the labor membership want to elect a winner and still tack about a tad to the center with secure starmer as a more respectable figure who will prove more difficult to be lampooned by the mainstream media however they may be doing the carbon cap an injustice that is at

least an argument in the wake of the raid will collapse in the election but commons instincts on the view in england on the european union were better offending to the north of most candidates to replace them it is likely that the problems for labor are more fundamental with even their radical programs struggling to compete in an age of populist politics look beyond the red well to their form of citadel of scotland where labor are hopelessly i flanked by the s.n.p. on the tories or either side of the constitutional question as a result they didn't end up with a 30 plus percent of the vote i knew of $200.00 m.p.'s as in england but 20 percent i'm just single lonely m.p. the big battle over breaks it may be over but the underlying issues which it raised control. of borgias money and laws will not go away any time soon can labor compete on that landscape if the new labor leader is to make real progress and it will take more than a lick of paint and better presentation it might need more fundamental thinking

about the position of the left of center and the new age of populist politics and of course they will also require some unintentional assistance from the prime minister. next week we turn to the issue of just war not just the labor leadership but even bricks itself and the headlines how we end to the age of global pandemics what if anything can any government do about it i mean mouth from alex myself and all of the team is good bye for now though and we hope to see you next.

and a very warm welcome to you you're watching us inside. in this community there are people who believe that it's ok. it's really hard there are no jobs and you see that i've got kids that ask and as a parent. i can come up with arguments there's

a lot of conflict within the game between the most of the conflict i would say over balls around money and most of their money is made. close one on each of those he know each other is good business the state of california alone makes $6000000000.00 a year of prison complexes gets a 20 year life where. you don't care anymore nobody cares about your so your care might anything.

across germany as the ruling centrist party breaks its own pledge and joins with the right wing alternative for germany and the regional tactical. also this hour as the u.s. election primaries start twitter follows on you tube in changing. videos and images of the big wording of the new rules concerning the tech giants may use it to censor supporters of politicians they dislike. and in moscow a court gives custody to social services of a completely healthy child left by parents in the hospital for 5 years.