to organize kinda time support from checks the vaca that i got here toll that i almost certainly owe my life to him once in a while these are challenges to test our humanitarianism and europe's effigy keiser this is surely one such challenge but within that there is i believe need to do something about unaccompanied child if you g.'s and you are like other children to be able to safety in this country and be given the same welcome and opportunities that i had. how things have changed when the house of lords similarly amended the johnson withdrawal bill the government use its newfound house of commons muscle last month so overturn it without any set of many tournaments this week or 2 more so much for which was moved to the other place in the name of the noble lord lord. where the government humbly disagrees with the noble lord the moment this moment in no way affects our commitment to seek an agreement with the e.u. prime religious way she cannot deliver the best outcomes for these children as it

cannot guarantee that we reach an agreement and that is why this is automatically a matter which must be negotiated with the e.u. and the government is committed to doing so to seek in the best possible outcome those negotiations give way and then of course however while the event was removed and the bill they issue itself has not gone away and today we speak to some of the committed campaigners but then i'd with a pilot who intend to bring it back to the political center stage i think the more of us the better and we will definitely i will get every celebrity a every face that i can on to this campaign i will do anything to make it happen we need to make it work and i will refugee in the united kingdom can take the children with them but our child refugee can take that out of peter's siblings with them and i think has a great inequity because surely children who are refugees deserve the same rights as adults or refugees and i don't think it's been fully thought through the consequences of not doing that are told and spitters arguments were made up against

it which are shown not to be true. with the parliament she prospects looking much less hopeful for the child refugee campaigners thought so now turning tighter a new pressure from outside parliament one aspect is to focus on the contribution that the descendants of child effigies of the past have made to this country alex speaks to the start of a 1000 t.v. programs debbie arnold whose mother was brought to this country as a toddler on contract transport. there are not welcome back to the show this is lovely to see you alex i feel like i'm part of the furniture well the last time we spoke to you i believe you because both. are more than our television screens but we spoke to you about posting in the homeless but you've got a very particular interest in taking up the cudgels on behalf of child refugees cudgels you're taking up with the formidable log dubs of yes love us well my mother was on the kids' transport and so was elf dobbs and so i'm i'm trying my best to

get the word out and make things now that of course the government has well what if they don't need the lord said they were going to carry on this amendment and then the went into the commons and they said we were so what happens now but the government's position which just have from stephen bach to the black society is that ok doesn't have to be in the legislation in order for it to be government policy to help a child left. if you could those above well i mean because beforehand what it was legislation it still wasn't done and so and then they had to go to court to say you know this is not being done so that it and then of course now it's not part of the legislation so i don't really kind of would understand what the government's talking about but there again i don't most of the time so what you're saying is that the government didn't on its commitment that was the previous government yes exactly government when it was in the legislation how can you trust them what is not in the legislation before and wouldn't a government want to help me that we're talking here but child refugees who don't

have any immediate family with them in europe but have family in the u.k. would a couple really want to not the facility a lot of these people obviously not and i and i don't understand how we my mother came over here when the kids transport as well i mean they didn't have any relatives over here and they had to be sponsored to come here and that's what you know 10000 kids came over here and then even then the government didn't want to do it but it was. public opinion so now we need public opinion to change but how do we change that if public opinion was so strong i'm sure they'd listen to it but people don't understand the difference between immigrants and refugees and there is a massive difference but what are you saying that we're back because everybody in this country says oh yes look at the conduct transport program that's a sign of the open hearted you know rossetti of of this country are you saying that wasn't an unambiguous poll was only about it because they didn't want it don't if

there were you know they didn't want to do it but the but the public opinion swayed and they said they had to do after kristallnacht they said that's it we've got to do something and they did but 1st. your mom i mean she she was with a small child when she was on can you know she was you know came over here at 4 years old and she was put on the train and a lot of people don't know either that they were told that if they cried when they were with the parents took them to the station they were told that if they cried or showed any emotion they want to put the kids on the train so you can imagine it was like a silent thing and they were saying goodbye to the children and the children little children 4 years old how could they understand what was happening i mean it's just such a horrible thing but there again they came over to england they saved their lives and i wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for the can transform what i meant to your mum you don't one day when you were old enough to understand that this is how a kid no she didn't she you know was always part of my life always was what was part of anybody else's life i remember when i was little growing up and seeing in

films about schlitz and my mother used to run to the t.v. set and said oh perhaps i can see my mummy and daddy and it really used to make me so upset so i never was very interested he used to just upset me the whole thing about the war i'd never want to talk about it because i upset her so much generations of people who came as part of the program must have been massive contributions with a new world of acting and if you come across a lot of actors who were part of course as. we have one interesting i think people didn't really talk about it it's only recently now that i know so many people that are connected now that i'm friendly with after you've got a dame shirley i mean she is she she's very high up in autism there are thousands in fact there's a list of people who came over on the can to transport you know top physicians top you know people of surgeons everything people have saved lives constantly and there are people now when we went to the there was a kid to transport reunion and it was just fantastic to see i mean the people now

who came over very old but that their children and what they've given to society and how we've changed this country because this country save my mother's life and i feel that all the contributions that she made and all the people that came over on the kinda made have made a huge difference to this country so we've paid back our dues as perhaps some of the lemming center attached to the new holocaust memorial will do to sure the contribution will so they should do i think that would be fantastic so why then given the track record let's talk about lord dobbs for a 2nd ago pretty respect because of his background because he was part of the program because he speaks with one rival the thought of the on the issue could see the politics of this lying and how is your campaign going to take shape if you mobilize public and well i don't know man are they going to be formidable together no i know i love i love to work with them at the moment i'm working with i'm just you know being a spokes person for how i feel i'm not my views of my own not his as you say

concerts are but i don't know what's going to happen next obviously else will come up with a plan and i should be behind him but we've got to hope we've got to get public opinion behind us if we cannot get the government behind us we've got to get public opinion and somehow we will i'm sure i was partly a campaign will be mobilizing some of your your sugars powers to get the message across yes absolutely i think the more of us the better and we will definitely i will get every celebrity a every face that i can on to this campaign i will do anything to make it happen. we need to make it work in terms of the contribution. you're saying that people don't always appreciate the difference between immigration and refugee how do you illustrate don't grading immigration which in itself many would argue i would argue is a fairly good place for yes i think immigration is good but i think people think that people come over here as immigrants and they take from our society they take from the n.h.s. they take from this they get free there's they get free that they get you know

benefits where is that's what they feel they come over i'm not saying they do that but i think that's what they think of the terms of national health service so the question will be very much the well exactly but that's what people think and i think on the other hand with refugees these people need help they're not coming over here to to to take or even contribute particularly they just need to be saved they just need someone to look after them they are vulnerable we look after animals and i am a huge animal lover we look after our animals so well now because we have to we get animals from all over the world from greece we have programs with greece and spain bringing in rescue dogs but we can't bring in rescue children and the at the happy moments of the last few years one thinks of the autumn of 2015 will the picture of eileen could be called dish lot of in 3 years all that lying dead on the beach you know mobilize change public opinion and not just of this country but but what will

why how do you create that intimacy with people will vote people need someone to explain i think people need to know it's just about knowledge i mean before hand we used to just leave animals didn't we we didn't treat them very well and i think now that because we've had so much public opinion that everybody loves you know like paul o'grady for the love of dogs we have all these wonderful programs we need probably more media on the a lovely programs to show how lives have been changed we need to do something very special to. show this compassionate country be a program on successful refugees your contribution to me exactly says that you know that yes i think that you're absolutely right and no one's done that we need to know we need to know the success of these people but we need to help people we need to feel compassionate towards these little children some of whom are sleeping in the fields on their own they have no family well if anyone could put forth a program idea or get on 2 screens on both the right let's lay out there as the

next thing so as to your own career what's what should be an activity sort of person well i suppose i do lots of voice overs i'm also a producer of shows on cruise ships which is great which i actually produced and put on myself and i'm also a contributor to close time magazine so i'm doing loads and loads of things so i another stop might my career goes in one thing and out of the other but i think i still think i might like to go back to a soap but you keep coming back and joining us now i love coming here so i thank you for having me life face alex join us after the break we're alex a lot of prominent parliamentary campaigner i guess spending macneil how m.p.'s can still make a difference facing a large government majority will see that. i

can't show you my face but i'm going to teach you must door in 9093 this man was sentenced to death they could charged with capital murder even though he didn't have the gun didn't pull the trigger didn't intend to kill anybody imagine living in your bathroom for the week with the scent of a 23. hour doubt that i've observed to be. confined within 4 gray walls fights using hot turn on to help him to leave death row. in the troubled 19 seventies a group of killers rampage through parts of northern ireland that was coordinated loyalists attacks particularly catholic population in belfast tens of thousands were forced to flee their homes and what was striking to put these attacks was that

the r.u.c. the police actually took part in the attacks so instead of preventing look they were active participants in the burning of coal streets in belfast at the time more than a 100 innocent civilians were murdered as the review can seniors and we found out more i was surprised about the extent and of the currents which the collusion was involved in some of those cases the killers would later be named into the now we're getting i think it went to the very very top i think if the phones frosts the water where politicians you thought was going on and give the go ahead. welcome back 2 years ago while lord dubs led the campaign for child refugees in the house of lords. i guess spending mcneil the m.p. for human in year let the count pain in the house of commons his private member's

bill fell through a 2nd reading in 2018 with all party support only for the government to use procedural tactics to the street it from becoming law alex big fantastic meal about how to make progress in the new political environment of a government with a massive commons majority and i'm joined by someone who's taken key parliamentary list of in the house of commons on the issue of refugees meal newly reelected this chair of the international trade committee congratulations on your statement much i like your man glad to be a bike isn't it a single particular at this time with border seeming to learn international trade on the hoof every time we turn on the television he thinks a lot of silly as wu is a deal so on the subject of refugees in the last parliament you produce the the family unit here refugees family reunification bill which sailed through its 2nd reading a great achievement for a private member's bill sykes but then go bogged down by the government lost in the

sirens of commons procedure of what happened to the year they were given it was technically called a money resolutions or can get up to committee upstairs in the commons there was a tory whip was particularly difficult about and went on their legs and as leader of the house i asked several times of business questions why the money resolution wasn't forthcoming i was sort of stalling walling 34 weeks on the trot i asked the same question effectively and to the leader of those undulates of the time and there is really no will within the tory party to move that on i mean we're only giving children the same rights as adults something that's normal across decent countries across the world but let's deal with the procedure 1st of in for people watching around the world so here was a bill on a friday which most m.p.'s of already shuttled back to their constituencies was was carried before a commanding majority was really you know loved. a number of m.p.'s attending but

even with the parliamentary assent of government to the blackguards of the put certain procedure managed to bog down in the house of commons well the tone of that make you feel was very well summarize the it really was difficult because i met some of the young refugees in question who had hoped at the 2nd reading stage that meant perhaps if he says that may not be taking a dangerous journey through the sahara could just fly here in safety if you go with people traffickers to the sahara particularly as a woman well we don't need to spell it graphically what might happen is sadly not pleasant and if you fall off one of the vehicles then these just left and so it's a dangerous journey both physically in mentally in many ways to try and get yourself to a place of safety so we're trying to do was to get children and families reunited these are people who have families already in the united kingdom who were seeking

to join them from danger zones in war zones as refugees from from rome the continent that that was the objective of your bill absolutely and it happens in other european countries where the child more typically a teenager might arrive in a certain jurisdiction the family have been split up for some one reason or another they might have wondered of course africa or the middle east of whatever and ended up in a european country to relative safety in normal countries the a low children have the same right as adult refugees have an adult refugee in the united kingdom can take the children with them but our child refugee can take that out of peons or siblings with them and i think as a great inequity because surely children who are refugees deserve the same rights as adults or refugees and i don't think it's been fully thought through the consequences of not doing that at all and spitters arguments were made up against it which are shown not to be true so what is the government's logic here will remember memorably of dubs in the house of law. succeeded an amendment to teresa mayes breaks

a bill tried the same thing and succeeded in the lords of abolish johnson's woodrow bill but use these big majority in january to overturn the house of commons but what is the government's motivation the minute morse we're talking about a few 1000 people involved why are they so dead set against a structurally provision and take all these children to rejoin the farms well it's evidence of 2 things to do to that question i think there's an ingrained behavior and motivation in the home office which is and is going back to in the 2nd world war what orphan children of the holocaust there was resistance to deal to when did we have for instance the $300.00 children into czechoslovakia it was resistance in the home office to a low them a sense of normality after the horrors to going to an all across so there's that stand that runs through the home office for decades but i think more worryingly perhaps in the current conservative government it's just

a feeling that they might get bad headlines from trashy tabloids who might see the taken in too many people and that i think is such a baseless and unthought through a motivation a kneejerk motivation that it really is sickening when you put out against what children have had to face. in becoming a refugee the uprooting of the families the dismemberment of the families the killing in some cases of members of the families of the other death threats to other members of the families let me ask about your constituents and who the leader of the west of miles ahead pretties was clearly feeling when you were fortunate enough to get a prime position in the in the private member's ballot that perhaps the members should have been proposing something more directly related to that to the western islands as opposed to the issue of child refugees the joy of any blowback from your constituency that perhaps you should be mailing your own fireside well there's always one or 2 said invoice but. the overwhelming majority in 90 plus percent i would say they were on the side of this i mean they have

a decent particular unlike the near independent feature well as with the population growing in the hebrides we see deep population and we want people in fact there were some syrian refugees a quarter of all the syrian refugees to the united kingdom i've come to scotland and some went to the island of us and the other other 5 or 6 islands were complaining they didn't get any refugees or refugees tend to mean a new spark new initiatives filling up schools vitality in the community people you'll get to know quite quickly and so no question there wasn't global so if you like the opposite when a society has experienced the hard side of emigration they're more willing to see the benefits of immigration that is absolutely right and also the understand from their cousins and friends who are emigrants to other places and have been welcomed to other places that when migrants and immigrants come towards you then they should be welcomed in the same spirit that you cousins and friends and family were welcomed in other parts of the world so what the prospects for this parliament with

a massive total majority in the house of commons have got a lot dub still a lot of still campaigning in the house of lords is there anything you can do in the commons to keep this issue alive and well sadly in the current lot of private members goes nobody has taken up the baton i was hoping somebody would take up the baton so we will find parliamentary devices bills behind the chair or whatever. the chip over there what is that where it's no much of a device to put the private member's bill but at least we can present it in the house is to get behind the chair of the speaker we'll get some traction some motion with will do some work at the end users what you're saying is you get a law you don't get the same opportunities as being lucky at the ballot for members you know your garden team type you can still get your your bill printed you can still use the extra you can use the parliamentary mechanism has to fire the public campaign you sell a question with some experience of these of these. methods absolutely and that's and that's what it's about sort is about keeping this in the public consciousness i

don't think given boris johnson's huge majority it'll be much and bought his johnson's conscience unfortunately or the to the government's conscience who knows they might have a change of heart at some at some point but they are going to reach any road to damascus unless we try and at least work with the n.g.o.s to keep just to do the forward because it's a normal thing in normal countries. to resist giving child refugees the same rights as adult refugees i mean if you even slipping and i'm not advocating this is a slip of the right so muddled refugees a little bit some form of equity 3 adults and children badly but treating children only badly is reprehensible and surely they're going have a change of heart i'm not going to take a deputation or some of these families and to see bodies jobs to see if you can get that change of heart see if you can appeal to his better mention of every device that is possible that we can play at the heartstrings and play that the reality of the situation for the prime minister should be considered and all of the members of

the government particle in the home office and. and the immigration minister as well because if we don't this will wither on the vine so we have to find things over the next few years hopefully perhaps in the next parliamentary year somebody comes out of the of the heart for the private member's bill if i'm lucky enough to be one myself and of this hasn't been sorted by then i would obviously got the button again and run with it once things always interested me and that. would be a collection of of the generations who have achieved so much who were the beneficiaries of of refugee programs and the can been wonderful debbie arnold of spectacular show business and soap careers as one of your your key supporters and campaigners but an example of all those in the national life who are only here and only achieved what they achieved. because someone has some point the sighted to rescue them from that sea germany or from or from other extraordinary difficult

circumstances internationalism is of an argument for getting an assembly of of these great achievers have contributed to much to save these people would not be part of the fabric of the country unless somebody had said you know suffer the little children and let them come in absolutely i mean i think there's also looking behind as to why that happens i think when people come into a different society whether we go to another society or they compare society we see things through different eyes because the different perspectives and different opportunities i'm reminded as you've been speaking about are a man from the land of lewis who helped people from a boat from vietnam and in the vietnamese boat people and he got them to hong kong left his own merchant ship and helped him get to hong kong and these people litter settled in canada having left vietnam with nothing with lovely the cloak roughly the clothes on their back some of them on their multi-million years if not more in canada and is welcomed refugee reconvenes that various times in canada has been

over to see the people who left destitute or know beyond wealthy in canada and as a matter of a few short decades or whatever their fees seem to go i don't have any academic evidence for this but it seems the anecdotally it perform because the experience of being a refugee whatever it is certainly enriched the societies that in help the societies and we're lucky to have refugees who we should think with that with the benefits refugees bring us not what we're doing for refugees for the short period that are getting on the feet what would use chair of the national trade committee say to him but the issue of child refugees are here to your your minute with a private list appealing to his battered nature what would your message to bala's jobson be well today's refugees are tomorrow's trade partners and the countries they come from will be an invaluable bridge don't spurn anybody be the refugees or be the potential trade partners that has benefit which will benefit from. it's all to bruce both on this point you know like we're much into it thank you. when the

opposition parties agree to the christmas election then i think peace angus macneil described it as a parliamentary christmas present for boris high right he was the implications of a tory landslide go far beyond the reach of politics it breaks it and impact on many issues with opposition held sway in the minority parliament similarly the house of lords has moved from a commanding position to being a muscular heated campaign as to breaks it or anything else cannot be summarily overturned in the corman's thus the campaigners for legislative protection for unaccompanied charges fiji's were only to find new ways of progressing their campaign the focus will no longer be on crunch parliament she votes but on the low good job of persuasion of public opinion however feelings remain strong and the government would be unwise to underestimate the impact of publicity and on how the public can be touched by the plight of refugees children and politics probably

venture authorities are what kinds for much but not quite for everything meanwhile from alex myself and the rest of the team it's good bye for night and we'll see you next week. thank you. thank my. is your media a reflection of reality. in a world transformed. what will make you feel safe from.

tyson nation full community. are you going the right way or are you being led. to direct. what is truth what is free. in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the depths. or a maybe in the shallows. this 10 year period of 0 money velocity where money has gone directly into the pockets of the few oligarchs and countries of doors in america and around the world into these silos like these 12500000000 dollars properties when they when the infrastructure for that starts to crack and illiquid he starts to see ballard you get inflation for real for stuff like food and we're seeing this happen now where

people are noticing that the cost of every day living is starting to spike higher. order the kind of good intentions we both are true go to we're in christian and maybe even 40 years ago there is simply evaporated and do not see it the kind of pleasure of the 5. today each day storage.

is here. waiting to be reached. turkish airlines. german authorities say the suspect who killed 9 people in a drive by shooting on wednesday night had xenophobe in the back the poison of racism in german society. as a marker on powers to battle islamic separatism in france as he bids to win votes ahead of next month's keep local elections. new reports claim syrian militants backed by turkish troops have launched an offensive against the syrian army in the province that comes just a day after turkey said that it would launch a military operation short.