headlines this hour as the 2nd day of wiki leaks founder julian assange just u.s. extradition hearing gets underway in london his lawyers claim the whistleblower has been badly mistreated by british. allegations have been echoed by the publisher of the play. of course who is more to the world where everything is done to humiliate and make life would be for him. here is not have a proper chance to prepare for this trial which is 4 time olympic champion mo foreign faces fresh media scrutiny of a claims he lied to us doping officials about her alleged use of a controversial supplement. and the egyptian government announces 3 days of mourning after the country's president hosni mubarak dies at the age of

$91.00. you can follow us on you cheap twitter on facebook in addition to visiting our website r.t. dot com coming up next it's time for cross talk. in welcome to the r.t.e. interview with. donald trump's deal of the century has been put forward what does it say about the middle east geopolitics in even metaphysics i mean game joined by a former british and founder and director of complex for a lister welcome back to moscow where we meet we talk about the middle east you know when donald trump and his administration put forward their deal of the century for what we thought was going to be the israeli palestinian conflict to be resolved actually use something much much more comprehensive and i. dozens and dozens of

articles about it they all pretty much say the same thing but your article recent article israel in the middle east a civilizational and metaphysical war of this is so think very different in looking at the deal of the century what your thesis in this article is simply the fact to recognize that israel or zionism is more like any normal nationalism it's not like nationalism of russian nationalism or other nationalism precisely because it was given this was dictated by gold and it was an empire of a civilizational a metaphysical empire again through the room akin to the roman empire for it came to the room and then and even the secular leaders of it like being gorean who was very secular all saw this not just as a nationalist project but the redemption of the human race is what he described i mean not the jewish people but the human race as

a whole and it's in and it tells the jews exactly what will be them that it will other states will submit to them they will provide their wealth honey milk will be coming to them and they will rule over this and in a sense this is what we're talking about it is a judeo christian civilizational project for the middle east it always always was that and now it is be actualized and the american ambassador friedman was very clear in the soft of the meetings in the east room of the white house he said listen you know this is the bible being actualized i mean living in the old testament the whole time it only the old testament the jewish bible the old testament and so this is what is coming and great leave the deal of the century was the sort of. laying the foundations 1st of all for the palestinians to give tribute

to those in those packs today like pax romana you know the the province's the pa provinces of pax romana like spade became and gave their fealty to corrode in a century it's providing that for the palestinians to come in on a subordinate status and a knowledge the new civilizational paradigm in the region that stage one then we move to later stages where it's going to extend jordan probably other states are expected to submit to new most of the arab states have already whole way john will get to that point that we took for maybe our american viewers here this sounds like a form of manifest destiny with an element of the nick element to it yes well that's true i mean one in one in 4 americans say the evangelicals and even

jericho's take the old testament very literally and they see that and they see see this as leading to the return of the redeemer and rapture rapture says what we're talking about so any move towards actualize the eyes of prophecies about the future at the destiny and this is what many are who if you listen to his speech he said thank you mr president for enabling us to fulfill our destiny and what's the destiny if. it's what they said empire of lies there is not there personally but they are going to determine the destiny of so many other people in the region i mean it's really interesting is that it seems in many ways israel is kind of replicating very much the mindset that the u.s. but the u.s. has it on a global. in a global way but the israelis are looking at it in a regional and that's what i think so many americans. always the makers and even

jellicoe can readily understand it because it's something that the u.s. does except for on a global scale yes actually it meshes very closely because the american. elite have always seen themselves as a civilizational project you see that famous columnist in the new york times tom friedman he said used to say you know you measure our success not by troops on the ground but kentucky fried chicken mcdonald's in hollywood it was or was a if you like a cultural project too and a few some years ago nato met leaders of the nato forces came together and nato leaders said look. our empire will fail if the world does not accept of vision as their vision for the future we can't sustain the hedge of money the empire without that vision and so walked to do we have it this munich security conference pompei it was said listen american values american ideals will prevail

and that of course was influenced during my eye what happened in the cold war you believe it will and that will it will succeed because it we have the force to make it we have sanctions we have trade we have the dollar we have the military ok i mean this is a it sounds like a virtuous view of the world but it's very dystopian when you think about how it will be made into reality and i think in this is the disenchantment so much of the world has with the neo liberal order of course because what it's done has been to impoverish breakup destruct those states in order to prepare the way for this i mean look at the huge pressures that are being put on not only georgia but on lebanon on iraq on iran all of them part of a process to make agreed to these terms and to agree to this project i mean it's

it's it's a project it's an. empire project it's only in phase one but these of the subsequent faces and that people are feeling this precious and i think it's having a huge impact on the middle east because i've just been back to visiting a number of states and europe everyone has depended on what they call holding the middle of the stick. only those no middle of the stick left because he. trump has polarized little ground has gone let's talk about trump because he i've been asked this so many times that trump under the trumpet ministration essentially is recognizing the annexation of the west bank up to the jordan river the gold. that the us is recognized the moving of the embassy to jerusalem trying to up my thesis is this true doesn't because there's no downside for him politically to do

it for him. you know as a politician and as someone who's running for reelection because he doesn't see any downside in his base likes it so it's a cost free in his mind if i think what real experts on the middle east see how costly these kind of decisions are particularly since united states has no right to give away something is that it's own in the 1st place i don't think i think it's. simpler the. trump has to do is because of course people will say to you you know the evangelicals one in 4 americans will no vote democrat maybe true but the question is will they sit on their hands and not go out and vote enough would change the electoral i mean you know trump is not going to win the popular vote he has to win it through the electoral college so it really matters to him and he has been vulnerable and he's vulnerable he was vulnerable during that senate

vote on the impeachment because a number of right wing new cause. already to say look you know we've been happy to go with pence because he's a soldier he salutes him and he will do what he's told you know so many people underestimate that and if you look at the american cable t.v. it is never never mentioned but the bipartisan military industrial complex slash in interventionist slash. global hegemony and your money project is is very very front and center for these people and i don't think it was even very subtle is that this has this project has to continue so this is what he did i mean he gave them everything the evangelicals and ever being just i mean he did it before the election in the senate or on the day of the senate election but obviously the been

a number of standing about the everything the evangelicals. and the deep state to dos for now on israel was given if i watched that press conference when the deal this century was rolled out for us all there was no palestinian on the stage and there wasn't even. a modicum of any kind of suggestion of negotiations take it or leave it but essentially doesn't the deal of the century. codified a 11 state solution of course one of the one of the implications of a 11 them pasta yes no with well you can have such a maze existing just as the roman empire was in it for by literally their providing they accept the authority except acknowledge the authority of rome own knowledge the oath or the central authority you have a moment of latitude to depends how much but that was how the roman empire what

and that would be the same thing but then our sleep flies in the face of these rules based order that the u.s. and its allies particularly in europe are are pushing all the time it's it's it's contradictory well no not really i mean the rules based empire i mean but you know don't forget this meshes very closely as i say with a sense of you know what happened in the end of the cold war when all america's values. be legitimized i mean you know it was hollywood it was the wall street it was all of these values they had destroyed not the usa i thought but communism socialists and the left were completely destroyed. the actualized variation of israel what do you know almost give a comparative if this happened and iran was defeated in the us it would almost like

produce about iran. a little bit later not only that but it will be it will be another validation and as i say and as i said nato spoke some years ago and said you know we cannot survive how do we maintain how do we keep an empire i think people are underestimating the importance of this cultural civilization even if you look at what the pentagon has been saying recently about china they've been not talking about the trade war but the civilized nations all threats of china that we will start thinking the chinese way economics. is a national card is the way to sell this new cold war with china even with russia i mean it when you when you base it on values and not on military strength for example yes i mean this is what this is what they're using for their domestic audience and it's obviously quite effective. and people respond to this how you win

that civilizational war is is a different but i think that's precisely will compare meant when he said. our ideals will prevail hold the veil hold ok after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the middle east stay with us.

what's not minimized and that is. about all that me. could watch that i'm not going to be. the one that had to. give the nod to me i mean come on what the how do we. not do is a need. to go. out on a. welcome back to the arty interview i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing the middle east i was through in the 1st part of the program you're talking about this idea. israel's messianic view for empire in the region as

a reflection of how america looks at the world. but one thing kind of in bedded in this him prior vision is that somehow. particularly sunni muslims in the middle east will have to accept zionism will they do that no i don't think in coercion they don't have to accept zionism but yeah that would be accepting the zionist project but they have to accept the authority of zionism of the if you like of the civilized nation a project. just as i said you know people have to spain and everyone had to accept all 40 of. even if they did their own thing to a certain extent they have to but really in some ways were almost i mean it needs to be sort of consolidated but most of the arab states certainly some of the gulf

states are already you know. the head you. like of this vision the civilization they get out of it what do they get out of it is that they hope they're going to get business and they going to have a front door to washington and be accepted. but the great difficulty in this whole project is that in order to bring it into being it's been framed in really binary terms either you know the palestinians either you do it or you're finished and the same for lebanon the same. jordan all are being put in this binary position and the middle ground has been erased completely and gone. and these pressures are increasing and this is where it may not work because in the sense the whole of the middle east needs to hold. by the middle and once you take all of that away then and make it so polarized and put the pressures on which are taking place

right across iraq iran syria then what is the choice they can only escalate back against the united states doesn't this. is going to interact with it actually very directly empower iran because iran is the alternative. iran is if you call it a victor is the only effective from the deal as i was reading. always wins by almost doing nothing at all it is react it watches everybody else in the region screw everything up over and over and over again no learning curve and is a result the guy in this. ends up being the winner it happens it's particularly in this century that's what that's a pattern that's what's happening in equally what's happening is the old traditional weapon is coming out which is sectarianism from the gulf states who are demonizing iran on social media in iraq and in syria and everywhere else. in order

to try to keep that position but it is putting huge pressure not only on those states in the north but also gulf states because the gulf states hold the middle of the stick and that's what they've done always and if they don't cotton to that and specially now when the price of oil is going down and may go down further depending on what happens in china but at 40 dollars 45 dollars a barrel which it may be if china doesn't get back to work very soon i mean the gulf states are really going to be there already in recession dubai abu dhabi and others i mean the pressures are intense some of them may collapse from it but others may have no choice but to escalate the binary process forces as coalition so i expect later to see or an april sometime around that we'll see quite a big of tensions between iran and the all of them some syria iran and also because

now there is a project to remove america from the region that's what i was getting in read my mind exactly and it is the that is the deal of the century a way to cement forever american presence in the middle east. it's meant to cement israel's position bad by the united as as the carrier of what americans now call themselves today of christianity i mean it's not just the old testament not just the break tradition but it's now carries the christian connotation the hyphen to it into the middle east but i don't know i think that it may end up paradoxically by the americans losing their footprint and losing their position in the middle east i think it's just my own personal belief but i think america will not be in iraq in any meaningful way by the end of the this year nor in the. syria

in any meaningful way i don't think it's going to be sustainable the pressures are already beginning from afghanistan right through. this region attacks it hasn't started yet because the iraq he's still talking to the americans and the americans seem ready to at least leave in part from iraq so without leave israel is virtually the sole ceric it proxy for the united states in the middle east is this part of the deal of the century if the u.s. footprint does shrink it will have its proxy i guess you could throw in the saudis as well where you would have that that that axis right there the tell of the axis with it would that be play it presumes that you actually undermined a weakened or destroyed a look principled opposition to this project and that's what's going on well in

a sense you know we've all heard the term arab street real or imagined but we're talking about elite decisions being made and that's always the case in the middle east but there's a there is discontent we have a lot. of social unrest all across the region across world. primarily economic and it's a great deal of time it's due to poor governance and there's a certain point where people do look it's going on in lebanon. a very volatile place. well at some point you have to realize you know the civil society the lower levels of society because we're always looking at these decision makers what is the sense of you my years down to my son's. off to having just been and everybody says the reform is necessary everyone agrees that corruption must be finished and no one thinks it's going to happen or is even ready possible because

it's always brought. in the middle east. if one person wants to move these elites talk about this way then there is someone whose interests are affected that way and i don't think all of these states it's going to be easy to have reform i don't think reform i don't think they can reform themselves as things stand so i expect these protests will get worse and increase particularly easy economic situation of the middle east as israeli much of europe is already in something of a recession. and its parts of the middle east are in deep recession and this is going to have big popular. populist if you like impact and i'm not sure all that all of these states will survive this period because they contra form i don't think we will see. that because you know in lebanon the sectarian interest

in. there is difference is the gulf interests and all sorts of different interests and none of them really are capable the elites in the middle east i don't think any of them are really capable of making the reform look at the gulf states they say they need reform to i don't see that we're going to see there's that level of inertia that is slow you do have these states here that spend lavishly on arms and we all know why didn't they keep their own populations in our control it's not our national defense i want to go back to the palestinian question here because you know it's we've all long known i mean from slow to the present is that israel has a choice as democracy or a zionist regime in which palestinians are 2nd class citizen and i'll use the. word there for both word essentially apartheid i mean that is something that

they're willing to live. because they get some they're shielded by the united states around the world and its allies i mean again you know when i look at that stage when the deal of the century was rolled out and i wasn't the only one that noticed that there was no one there and this is the origins of this trying to resolve this this conflict and they're just wishing the conflict away as if it doesn't exist and actually in a sense the that the palestinians don't know they're just taking off all the alternative all. taking and as i say the stage so that there's a what cold real choices. and only 2 choices if you think or available and this is why i think you know i listened to the palestinian and the original response and they said well let's have a new architecture we'll have you know the quartet revived and then. others

move through saying well we'll include north africa or in the hole about for occur and the germans the new pope and we'll have a big conference. don't they understand this is precisely what trumps policy is to dismantle the architecture they say we're going to build a new architecture he has spent the last 3 years dismantling the architecture so the palestinians have this choice or nothing and this is this is the whole point the fame offer is being given to lebanon you know either you do what you told you cut your links with his ball or you accept the israeli borders maritime and learn oh you almost financial system will collapse same for iraq the same iran the same and so this binary thing is not a chance for the arab states to sort of provide a new architecture revive the quartet and start negotiations with. israel then are invited to negotiate they're invited to think about what's been put on the

table the whole point is us is to take. it will sit around but if it fails then it catastrophic we fails because if you have a middle ground some kind of negotiation everybody has wiggle room everybody has options this is so brittle and breaks it's going to really break so that's why i'm saying the only ultimately i mean at the moment they're not there you know the arab states the talking about new architecture and going back to the 2 state solution and putting the arab proposal back from 2001 on the tape but you know as i say the whole of the trauma team's policy has been troll move all of that middle ground all of the liberal middle as i call it gone and to give you that choice but it implies there will be escalation some people will fold because there is no alternative some states may fold but others have no choice but to escalate so it does prepare and it could lead finally to something much broader. titling this program middle

east dystopia question mark 20 seconds is that a good title for this program yes it is a good title and it is also. we are moving into something that is going to be very tumultuous. and it could end up in a much wider conflict while always happy when you come to moscow but not always happy when you. think you know i want i very much appreciate you joining us here on the r.t. interview it's time time for new year anyway. in

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