and putting the burden of that school on the individuals and what we're trying to do is just know the true and institution. that is not the bushes for a functional. 2 worlds apart 70 years ago de walt was convulsing with protest against the war in iraq one even sat a guinness world record for the largest. neither the 3000000 in bro nor the over 13000000 protesting across the globe could stall the bush

administration from launching operation iraqi freedom which would lock the country in fratricidal violence for years to calm what's really take for iraq to recover from it all to discuss that i'm now joined by a far higher. chairman of the iraq advisory council and a former political advisor to iraqi presidents mr aldrin it's so good to talk to you thank you very much for your time. thank you for having me now next month as you just heard me mention will mark the 70th anniversary of the bush administration's decision to invade your country on false pretenses and while nobody these days there is to defend the rationale for that war i think there is still a discussion going on about whether the american intelligence was so bad by accident or by design doesn't even matter as far as you are concerned or clearly of invasion

of iraq on the liberation of what we call that of iraq as being a turning point in iraq as history. also was a chance for iraqi liberation from tyranny. have been exposed to for a good 35 years or so. the iraqi people lived under persecution torture. and political persecution that they were subjected to a very bloody regime for years and years so we as iraqis most of us would see it as a liberation although it was termed later talking persian and led to a lot of unrest and conflict but in its core the tours are a cause for celebration for iraqis well it's interesting you say that this liberation as you just alluded to came at the at a very high cost and i would argue that many people in iraq are still paying that cost of with the main risks and insecurities and our own life so are you saying

that it was all worth it historically that it was the prize acceptable for iraq to pay to be freed from tyranny. well the thing is i don't think it's a qantas fireball argument to say this is worth a dollar not worth it in terms of we we don't look at a bad way what is clearly sure is iraq was living under. very tour and they looked at the dictator who who was holding to power at whatever cost and we have seen the cost of hundreds of thousands killed we called in to an aide to year bloody war that more than a 1000000 iraqis were killed in the war as well as 1000000 or plus iranians were killed and the did the rest of you see in the regions all to do with that regime. we have seen so it's not a comparable situation room one for one but for iraqis they enjoy

a lot more freedom that they ever have and under saddam's regime the same time the welfare of the iraqi people is by far better now than then and what it was yes there are such backs in terms of security in some of the stable it is due to new factors that got into the original equation but the iraqis themselves are much better off now than they were before now the reason i pose this question choose because the iraq war has now emerged as a major theme in the democratic primary process in the united states but equally between senator bernie sanders who voted against the war and former vice president joe biden who supported it and this is this argument is ultimately about the u.s. foreign policy how major decisions were made back then and how they are made right now. do you think americans have made any changes in their decision making

process based on the experience that they had in iraq would do you would you like them again to how common how often to your country and announced without asking your population whether it wants to be. liberated or not. the thing is the iraqis were almost united to specially at leas the opposition groups to the iraqi previous iraq invasion were united in terms of helping their americans to to liberate iraq and that was would have not been possible if it wasn't for the help in terms of the american election on the antics that usually goes on on the claims and counterclaims it's all to do with electioneering i don't think we should take a lot. into it these are matters of suppling scores or making points in an internal election as though they are the one who really make that for their own. public or local consumption it's not only about their own public i mean when you

decide to help people across the globe it's it has to do something with more than just electioneering i mean like it's it's ultimately you know a major decision for the world security i know that history doesn't accept hypotheticals but i'm sure you've run them in the your mind more than once what do you think iraq would be like if that fateful decision to bomb baghdad hadn't been taken if diplomacy were given a bit more chance the fact is that iraq under saddam hussein was a bloody. wars and torture and suffering of the iraqi people under sanction and everything else that they have endured during saddam's regime this is not going to not going to change and continuation of that would have been even worse for the iraqi people but are what i'm talking about in terms of the local electioneering of the american democrats now they're debating whether some of

them oppose that some of them were for the war and so on this is. definitely it's a local issue that they usually come up i mean if you go back to the turn to 16 election and president trump then was making all sorts of. they timmins about taking back the oil and. going there and going that and he's going to do this do that and even building the walls and i'm going to do this this is these are all electioneering pledges that they made which means nothing when it comes to actual policy what we what we are really concerned about in iraq is to find stable ity here of and care what the world 11 candidate could say oh don't say but the problem is of course is that what candidate what one candidate says sometimes transpires in terms of actual action on the ground and it happened not only to iraq it also happened to your neighbor syria which provides an alternative template for how the removal of

a man that wanted or horrible leader could have been attempted when you look across the border and compare rock to syria what do you think had it worse the thing is i'm looking at it in the iraqi prospective the the why the prospect of on the iraqi prospect there was iraq is by far better off now than they were under saddam's regime and there is nothing to convince me otherwise because we have seen 1st the atrocities committed by the regime i for myself i was a push marg and i knew what it looks like and i've seen the chemical attacks on the court of this religious i've seen how soon the victims are followed. i've had friends who were who were murdered and tortured in secure secret police you're misrepresenting the shia i'm not arguing that saddam hussein's regime was a good regime that it had to be preserved my question is whether how being the iraqi people or any other people across the globe by launching a war on false pretenses is really

a way to go and what your seem to be saying to me that yes you know it was worth it i mean all the sacrifices that your country has also your son know to your question what i'm saying is i'm explaining to you the. my prospective the iraqi prospective in terms of what happened and the history and the past 17 years it's your your your prospect of maybe is their friend but that doesn't change what i'm seeing here and what i'm saying to you is for iraqis now they live better could do should we have better have a much better 17 years could we could have had a much more prosperous iraq a stable iraq yes has there mistakes happen absolutely could the americans have made things better by far they could've than they should've have made it better. doesn't mean that i'm agreeing with their medications on what they have conducted here and they have committed crimes some some of a 2 year they have the same time participated in the iraqi liberation so overall to

me it's important to point out the iraqi liberation by the help of americans was an important factor by the same time they were they they made mistakes and the mistakes some of them we are stopping prize i mean i can name just a few now i can tell you for example not allowing a quick iraqi government to be in place after toppling saddam was a big mistake appointing paul bremmer as the only source of power and authority was a big mistake the decisions paul bremer made then it was a big mistake of the dissolving of the army was a big mistake and so on so if we go through the details we will find puns and tons of mistakes that american did but that does not take away from the fact that they have ousted a tyrannical dictator who was bloodthirsty and he participated in the murder and killing of hundreds of thousands of iraqis and millions and wars with iran then the invasion of kuwait and so on absolutely this is exactly what i

am trying to did to do that on this program speaking of which seems to 1000 to 3 march 2003 and the purpose of the u.s. presence in iraq has been reframe several times from war on terror to nation building to war on terror again to what exactly what do you see as the purpose as the strategy of the american presence in your country today. what the american strategy now was the from by far there was a huge difference between now and then there where we can now they are a lot less involved with iraqi politics on daily basis than of the same time the new administration have a bigger strategy would mainly it can focus on iran rather than iraq itself we we do complain about a lack of american strategy in iraq and nowadays they see iraq in those and in the context of iran more than iraq itself and i but in my opinion that's

a mistake that they do because it iraq itself is a very important country it's jude it's geopolitics and strategic situation is important at the same time iraq is the 2nd largest or pick or oil producer and has impact on the oil on the world economy and iraq should be should be looked at on its own rather than being looked at in the context of the iran conflict which obviously the americans have given that top priority well mr elden if we have to take a very short break now but we'll be back in just a few moments speech and. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and obviously going to get out of the world of politics or business i'm show business i'll see you then.

the aus aid was. you. are. welcome back to worlds apart before hot alvin chairman of the iraq advisory council

and a former political advisor to iraqi president michele didn't just as you were saying before the break the importance of iraq for the united states has decreased as the u.s. military presence in that country it dropped from around 150000 at its peak in 2011 to roughly 6000 right now and even dov contingent is a cause for controversy and political games the iraqi parliament earlier this year called on their merican troops to leave but as we all know neither side seems to be in a rush to implement that resolution does the iraqi political class really one to pack up and go. i think you will find different so for opinion and position on the smarts or majority don't think that the american departure right now is the right thing to do they do they do have a significant role in terms of the war on isis the logistical help on the

intelligence how good they provide and terms of tracking are our system. and there were about employers they provide an important cover about iraq lacks this is cannot be compensated quickly if they are to leave right away so the iraqi establishment in general are marked with the idea of of removing them as the problem and the decision contemplated but rather than they should negotiate and park and organize some sort of withdrawal stage worse agreed by both sides because both sides would suffer if it's done abruptly you just said that both sides would suffer if the destroy is done abruptly and i can imagine the fallout on the iraqi side but what is the potential fallout on the american side because the americans currently have between 45 and 65000 troops in the region spread out be to

be in jordan saudi arabia bahrain etc is being interact really so important for the americans because it looks like he's in a way they retain a massive presence in the region yaz the from the terms of if you look at the map you see the americans have lack of presence in the in our area. look at the east or so or north the they have very little presence and that's why the they give it more importance plus the base they they use like i said they needed for cereals which is an important aspect of this whole region and that's why iraq is situated in the strategy really important position in that in the region for so for the americans of they have presence and the gulf is not the same as one that has an iraq obviously the war on isis is based in syria and iraq so the only place where they can really fight isis and track isis is in iraq and syria now given that it's

a very limited contingency around 6000 ships as resat and given that president trump. did promise his constituents to quote and out of this war is how big is the risk of him just you know pulling the troops out of iraq and there or re assigning them to other persian gulf bases and what would that do to iraq the issues long the number of them in the us it's not 140000 like you would have used to be but the 6000 and the operation that they have on what they provide is important and usually the use technology satellite tracking and everything else that they're it's and they're in their position in pursuing the isis war that is what's more important than the actual number of them as a logistics is not that difficult to to to take them out of the decide to go that line but there's a certain suffering. the change in strategy would be immense and the effect would

be a negative. effect on the american policy in the region would be huge so i don't think that they are going to make that decision of the stage obviously they are looking into negotiating with the iraqis and to work about how how they would work out a presence of some sort whether be it under nato or or otherwise now mr elden the call for the removal of foreign troops from iraq gain momentum after the americans and the iranians exchanged strikes on iraqi territory in connection with the u.s. assassination of the rain general custom silly money now if washington indeed respects the iraqi sovereignty even they want to stay in your country on negotiated terms why don't they consult you beforehand iraq is not an american backyard or isn't. it's basically the iraqi government have issued

a statement condemning the attack and on obviously it was a blatant violation of iraq's sovereignty it was something that they should have not done and that should have not taken place but as i said the americans before i said that they look into iraq in the context of the iran conflict for them general celeb money or as. a very important figure that they they felt that they had to take action on him but obviously generals for their money was a friend of iraq and he was very important person for the iranian establishment. his killing was a major turning point in my opinion for the politics in the region and the iranians took. a swift response by launching ballistic missiles on the american presence in iraq and i know less that so the americans look. at

this action as a way of retaliation as a way of strategic decision i'm not sure but it was something that they have taken place on the iraqis responded to it accordingly now as you mentioned you see it as a blatant violation of iraqi sovereignty of each unfortunately is not the 1st time that such an act happened but. is it taken in the in iraq as a sort of as an isolated sad of advance unfortunate ones or is it something that may turn into a pattern where the united states and iran turning iraq not just into the battleground for political intrigue but an actual battleground to exchange strikes where the fact is they both look at iraq. in one way as a conflict zone and both sides try to persuade iraq to be on. if it suits them they will use iraq as grounds to attack each other or attack each other's interest

this is what the iraqis dread most and i have tried hard to to get iraq out of this conflict because both of them are regarded the strategy partners and they both have immense influence an effect on iraq's. sovereignty iraq's economy iraq's military and iraq's stable ety both of them are capable of destabilizing iraq of they wish to and both of them could contribute to the stabilization of iraq in the different ways so for iraq really there is little of iraq could do in terms of stopping them apart from condemning any act that could be regarded as a violation of iraqi sovereignty and the same time they won the iraqis want to persuade each side differently to to really take their conflict with each other somewhere else on the eve of the iraq's alone while i actually have a couple of questions on that particular topic but before we go there i began this

program by mentioning the global protest against the war in iraq 17 years ago and over the last couple of months iraq itself has become a center of sustained protests is there anything special anything different about this wave of public discontent or the way it's been suppressed or perhaps rechanneled in recent weeks. well this protest is the really annoyed cleaning for the iraqi people as to the suffering that they have in the hand of the current political establishment were the political establishment failed to take advantage of the huge resources that iraq enjoys and put these resources into serving the people and to rebuilding iraq and sort of infrastructure creating jobs and and really building services and institutions the iraqi

people do suffer from lack of these resources in the same time from the corruption the that has almost institutionalized in the iraqi life of the same time the stable ety and lack of security be it what has led to the darkest war of the aftermath of it and the destruction the us as war have brought to iraq so if you look at it it is just something that the iraqis feel bitterly about the lack of services and very their iraqi young people big numbers and millions that there are without jobs and they see themselves as with very little prospects so it is as you can say an answer to their lack or the for the years of neglect there quite a few people who said jazz that this new prime minister that it was appointed a few weeks ago is essentially a copycat of the of the previous administration despite having the support of

a. very prominent. shia cleric knocked out all southern eases that shoe is that sure that the new administration is jazz and your rendition of the same political class that has been in power in iraq ever since saddam hussein was hanged. well we hope reason lorenzo in the movie the prime minister there's a good nervous as come with a major statement and made 14 pledges and that's all sounds good but we have to wait and see if this near the recession will be a continuation of the past or he will come up with something new he is making the right promises and people are looking at it with a with a probably with benefit of doubt but it's something that we have to see he he has moved away and the law he has moved away from the usual established way of

appointing ministers and appointing his cabinet he's been so far resisting all pressure from the political parties to to appoint any ministers from them and he's insisting that he will choose his own cabinet he's also insisting that he will choose the ministers based on their professional marriage rather than party affiliations and i wonder if that's not an i effect speculation because at least according to the wall street journal political parties in iraq have long turned ministry's into their own 5th that's the quote to maintain that power. isn't the new prime minister naive in thinking that he can forego the party's preferences in major appointments and still secure the support for the cabinet in parliament i'm not going to call him naive but he knows the exact situation he's he used to be a minister he was elected twice as a member of parliament he he constantly visits iraq and he knows what's the score.

some people. call his 14 pledges as wishlist. and this is probably is one of them it's a wish that he has whether he will succeed in that or not it's something that we have to wait and see a lot of people might not give him the highest score in terms of succeeding but it is something that is different and he's pursuing it in a different way and it's been looked at differently but some people do have doubts on this as a continuation of the old regime and some people say no it's a new era now on mr allowing the new prime minister designate has a little political base but he secured the support of. the popular and populous reach ever you call it cleric mcdowell souther why do you think mr l. sutter threw his support behind mr allawi and what do you think that support this condition don. the thing is they looked at. established this rhythm in terms

of backing certain candidates and then moving away from them he's more leaning towards the people taking to the streets when things go wrong and so on so it is this is a rhythm and his method of governing you know and expanding his his constituency the support base and as we queue for you to really track him from 2003 until now he has gone through various stages but every time he comes out stronger and he increases has a constituency and you can see that has been his parliamentary base is increased on the last election he won 54 seats and it's expected that he will increase the sma jaw ricky later on so there's something that he see himself as the backer of this. new candidate although not declaring it wholeheartedly or publicly

but he was instrumental in and selecting. mr allawi. there that's a way that he looks so that it's another tool another way another method of expanding his base yeah it's very interesting the iraqi politics is fascinating perhaps he should himself run for prime minister once even though he ruled out any political role for himself mr elden it's been a great pleasure talking to you thank you very much for sharing your perspective oh thank you very much for having me and thank you for watching hope to see you again next sunday on worlds apart. thanks. don.

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this sunday exclusively on r.t. . hopes for peace in afghanistan as the u.s. and the taliban sign a deal to end america's longest war specs to remove all of its troops from the country in the next 14 months after almost 2 decades of conflict and thousands of lives lost. migrants clash with greek police on the country's border with turkey hands off the anchor and down state would no longer prevent refugees from heading to europe. and the french government announced it will push through a controversial pension reform by decree mark hasse impala modes a move is prompting a new wave of protests in the country. and the bottom hour from now my colleague duckling very good takes you through the big event this week coming up next a lot international though it's going underground following the.