we do sinister hammer on the hour about winning an appeals court hearing what some call the west this carriage of justice the u.k. legal history all of them all coming up in today's going underground fast that's because straight to hospital in modern a wet we're joined via skype by dr giovanni growled the infectious disease specialist was at the forefront of the italian fight against corona virus thank you so much giovanni coming on what is the current situation in northern italy where your good morning well of this equation is pretty hard because of course we've got hundreds of people that have got to you think should try to go to the hospital of course that this is feasible we've got it for us all best and so a situation in trying to understand which kind of the arch we need to do so that to to cure people that whole when possible and with. just patients who got at risk you know to reduce stress as whole of course it's a difficult situation sometimes we ask the patient to step couple of days they will come anyhow because they are getting worse off in the least told the change because

of it i doubt that they will because at least emergency we had to change in this structure and so far in my hospital there are more than 100 beds just for positive cases waiting near morning and we've got to close all this good rule in order to a larger they tend to care units where riskier tory are needed a norther to take care of a younger population of course with regard to rape all difficult lation this is not seasonable and we are trying to use noninvasive or it's peter torry technique can you just get can i get on to the respiratory techniques here a few weeks ahead of us here in britain i understand or see over here we're appealing in britain for manufacturers to come out with ventilators i understand the use of ventilators is something you've been particularly wary of you have to be careful clinically about the use of ventilators yes we need to up to 2 idea to find a patient what got us all to need to survive using them to date on that one but that will not. because i were experience is that whenever you need that information

with mechanical ventilation but you seem beat it in later actually this is need it for quite a long time and most of the time more than 2 weeks time i know of course that this is very difficult if you are old if you got many people will be teased because it may happen that you die because other people were p.t.s. rather than current i don't see a big star particular kind of us to the columbia at least because this disease produces a huge england nation burden and of course the dismay people with high cut about the risk of people you mention inflammation the national health service here in britain has been criticised for advising people to use ibuprofen and is it your understanding that it's paracetamol you're supposed to be taking i don't see that will like to proof it is obvious and thank sought this kind all and good laboratory drugs that do not think they do not cease to work or coronavirus so actually what we are it you would say it's a let me say it 2nd level and it run out or it drugs which are all of the body

about this is not going to do with this let me say calmly use under an arbitrary trucks that should not be yours that you can use as it will in order to go well if you but but also reminded most of the time it's even coronavirus that you're born is not that high and if anyone thinks that washing one's hands is a seems like an odd response all the mathematical modeling does show it will save millions of people from being infected yes of course if it did anything we grew up the birth to be very clear that didn't meet a route of transmission is through the droplet i do not have quoted droplet then most effectively debate should ease law shake hands 2nd is using mask this where there's no doubt about the editor in the peer reviewed british medical journal the lancet says the response here in britain was. wrong and that the outbreak has been

entirely preventable what did you make of what you were hearing from britain when the chief scientific science advisor has a patrick vallance who formerly worked at j.f.k. said herd immunity is the path to go down we now know that entails the deaths of quarter of a 1000000 people if you are already in a situation in which it's a cold muni acquired the only way that we need it to do is a tool up for your conduct this is a general principle and it's i just see this to our all white cotton docked we're getting reports of a lack of testing kits of protective again for frontline medical staff here in london the epicenter of the pandemic in britain how can we learn from what happened in italy where thousands died about the need for testing which of course the world health organization has advised britain to get a move on with according to the level of it yannick you must concentrate on testing or rather just food to eat or quantity because he now isolation nowadays so be it

be that make this. high that actually we have relied more on its symptoms rather than not test it also because we will never have become passive to test all the population regarding how to treat expression how to treat the coal at their supports that it is equally in providing whole care providers to all they protective measure i would sell for any intensity in intensive care unit we use of the same towards of the same i'm asked for one single chair now and we use the surgery mask on the top because we don't have it i projected mastic to be changed every patient and many doctors especially in that territory says that we have normal asked that we cannot go to those of the patients at whole but of course and this is a biggie ship for us because otherwise all of it should we come too close to go and we will not have the capacity to treat them all ok just finally in very briefly obviously a lot of repercussion. as of that of investment in the italian health service and

health services across the european union have that you had any cases of those who have been infected by covert 1000 who have recovered from covert 19 and then have been reinfected not so far nevertheless and there is a lot of uncertainty about how much is protected. even junichi provided by 1st grown up iris to take ships because of the time that we are just testing if the virus is present we are not testing which antibodies are predictable or with cellular immunity is protected at last the 1st search is ongoing not god and the course of this will be crucial as soon as the docs it will be available in order to forecast the level of protection that will be provided by cuts nation it's crucial to dog how much we will be able to box a little bit local a should and to what extent of this box it will be effective in order to avoid and this is the scene that you just will turn to be

a suitable disease like employment for giovanni growled a thank you my pledge well while the global pandemic may threaten millions it is billions who are threatened by another catastrophe arguably not being properly prepared for by earth riches nations join me now as extinction rebellions dr richard reid welcome back to going underground you're not directly for extinction rebellion the area wearing a hat and i get them a cat and before we even start when it comes to this crisis you've effectively been criticizing the same a b.b.c. coverage of the boris johnson administration as response presuming it is public information is going to be vital in this crisis absolutely the government has not been publicizing its models they are now emerging very late in the day that's not acceptable we need full transparency we need a lot more information about coronavirus that we have because we're hardly doing any testing in this country similarly in the united states the numbers that we have on the pad. mc they're all massive under-estimates because of the incredibly low

number of tests and because so many people who have coronavirus are asymptomatic for quite a while while they have and while they're infectious to which the volunteers. chief scientific advisor submerging valence will say well you don't know that because we haven't had the and this is just a. competition when people like the editor of the lancet making extraordinary claims that somehow this was entirely preventable because of the herd immunity response look we know for sure that the numbers are a hell of a lot higher than the official numbers we don't know exactly what they are but we know there are a lot higher now in terms of the prince ability of this richard horton the editor of the lancet is exactly correct many scientists have been warning for some time and i come at this from the perspective of the precautionary principle the idea that when we don't know something we want to protect ourselves against what we don't know in the case of this emergency this virus it's unprecedented we don't

know what effects it has we don't know for example whether it might have neurological effects where that might leave permanent lung damage we don't know a great deal about how it's transmitted yet we're gradually finding out but there's a lot we don't know ok but up until now living to let me just finish the point when we when we don't know that kind of stuff we need to on the side of safety that's what it is to be precautious and that is exactly what the u.k. and u.s. governments have not been doing they haven't been keeping us safe all the provinces father surely georgia says that he will still go to the public in any case but i think the government would say they were earning on the side of caution when they saw that a herd immunity response would kill courtroom 1000000 people in britain this term herd immunity i think it was a very honest to be using their idea was let's let this pandemic rip through the population and try to control it from hitting the most vulnerable who try to keep them this had the likely consequence as you say. but we could have hundreds of

thousands of people dying in this country now why would any government do that let me put something quite controversial here i believe that the only way it could make sense for somebody to think of doing that is if they didn't enormously think of themselves as part of this heard that was going to be knowingly infected with the disease knowingly recklessly endangering the population and i would claim thinking that they themselves would be part of that percentage of the population that we're not going to be infected ok well the harvard school of public health. how did seem to agree with using it was it was but why is it then that the b.b.c. certainly is reporting new the science is changed that's why boris johnson has changed his advice to the british population as regards going out of doors so the imperial results that the government is changing your goal of building material

college. they are new in themselves but the substance of what they're saying is precisely what the lancet was saying 2 months ago is precisely what nassim taleb and i have been saying for weeks on end a back of an envelope calculation shows that hundreds of thousands are at risk from this virus if you let it hit most of the population do the same and data brokers are the main broadcaster in this country is wrong about the science having changed the problem with the b.b.c. coverage is that they've been and the i.t.v. coverage is that they've been far too deferential towards the state they said things like for example well boris johnson is for only following the scientific advice because of course he goes out there flanked by the chief medical officer and the chief scientific adviser but that doesn't mean they're making the policy the policy was very influenced for example by the knowledge and psychology unit that is close to 10 downing street who were saying look you're not going to be. able to

convince people to socially isolate long periods of time therefore you've got to wait before you impose that those kinds of restrictions but that was groundless what we've actually seen wonderfully over the last week is the british population moving ahead of the government and saying look it's just not good enough we're not convinced that you're keeping us safe anymore we are bringing the government into line and we're bringing the broadcasters into line actually the science all the way along different scientists been saying different things the safe thing to do the precautions thing to do was never to put the whole population into a kind of massive uncontrolled experiment no where else in the world was planning to do this i'm here in london with us shannon and there are still flights taking off from from london airport from city airport except for those flights are because london is an epicenter now those flights are spreading the virus around this country and as we speak just finally very briefly i know that it's ensure bellina curbing some of the. demonstrations i understand there's

a whistle blowing project in case anyone watching this program was to give you information that could help not only regarding corona virus but on fossil fuel emissions globally yeah yeah yeah so we had this site it's called truthteller dot life w w w dot 2 fella dot life and the idea is if there are secrets that are lurking in any pharmaceutical company in any bank and any insurance company whatever it might be in government get them out the public need and deserve to know about threats to their safety on this or any issue professor richard reid thank you after the break who's really just blame for the lockerbie bombing that killed 270 people on british soil we speak just a lister of our own words working to clear the name of the only man ever to be convicted for the u.k.'s worst terror attack all this or more going abroad to a going underground.

i max kaiser one for my guide to financial survival this is on a device used by professional scallywags to earn money. that's right these hedge funds are simply not accountable and we're just adding more and more to the. totally destabilize the global economy you need to protect yourself and get in for guys or for. the world is determined by.

the day or. week. welcome back in the past few days of the coronavirus crisis began to dominate international news the scottish criminal cases review commission made a decision about the biggest of a terror attack on british soil the bereaved have been campaigning for justice for over 3 decades since the lockerbie bombing which killed $270.00 people up to pan am flight 103 crashed the only man ever to be convicted was libyan intelligence officer. mcgrath he but now there is to be a posthumous appeal joining me now from our studio in glasgow it's more on word lodged an appeal on behalf of the grannies family and it was described as conviction is the worst miscarriage of justice in british legal history thank you so much on my for coming on just before we get to look at me i've got to ask you

because the virus is obviously in the ed lines you helped. arguably put the murdoch news of the world out of business its successor the sun on sunday came out that's the chose that outlet by one of the top scientific adviser on coronavirus to boris johnson what do you make of using murdoch outlets for information i think as a as a liverpool boy most people would find that shocking i think the fact that the government is repeatedly using. one particular newspaper. called the health to few days ago used to telegraph a pay wall in order to put public information is simply not acceptable all newspapers all t.v. stations should be getting exactly the same information that should be given favoritism to one but i think it's it's outrageous and i and the process and the result of course is that they are cutting off parts of society that refused to buy such papers but also means the information is not getting the votes in a uniform fashion and it is scaring people i have older parents who are scared

reading what they see tippets in the news and tabloids is simply an example is not the way a reasonable rational well informed government should be behaving it's shocking in fairness of our sons in government i'm sure they say they are rectifying some of the problems before we obviously invite the barclay brothers owners of the telegraph and rupert murdoch on the show but let's get the lockerbie a lot of people are going to think that this case was done and dusted over 20 allez deal with the late more margaret daffy what exactly is this case and why are you were pursuing it given that al mcgrady has been convicted of this case he was of course 1st accused by a cia asset in libya back in the days when greg get halfway around the one of the richest countries in africa per capita well it on the 21st december 1988 pan am flight $103.00 exploded over lockerbie the town of lockerbie and $270.00 people from 21 countries lost their lives this was the as you said it's

a tale it was the greatest terrorist atrocity to take place on u.k. soil on. what it means as many people have said to us why 30 old over 31 years later should be we trying to take this back to the appeal court and it's as simple as this if there was a reversal of the verdict it would mean that the britain and britain and the united states and the security services have been living a monumental lie for some 31 years they incarcerated an innocent man and they punished the libyan people for a crime they did not commit and many people have for a long time pointed the finger of blame at the to run and stated that they were responsible that they carried out a revenge attack when the americans murdered some several 100 iranians on an air bus 6 months before the lockerbie attack and yet for some reason the finger of blame then shifted when the 1st gulf war came along and it seemed an opportune moment to treat libya which was a pariah state and to to point the finger of blame about when they needed support from syria and from iran for the 1st gulf war no the bottom line here remains that

mr macgregor he did actually start his appeal there was strong grounds of appeal and the process started and then in 2009 when he was diagnosed with cancer pressure was placed upon him and he reasonably believed that unless he gave up his appeal he would not be allowed to return home to die with his to die in the presence of his family that was an unfortunate that was a horrific way to deal an individual who had already been incarcerated for a crime he did not commit and then he subsequently died and people for that was the end of the chapter in 2014 i met with the british relatives who are unique in legal history anywhere i can see in the world have supported the victims you know as victims' family members have supported members of the accused the convicted and the mcgrath the family agree done in unison decided that we should try to take this case back to the blue court so it's been nearly 6 years of work we submitted an application to be getting that was refused on this time round the application

succeeded and the scottish criminal cases review commission said that it was on the . as of an unreasonable decision any jury would have taken and also the non-disclosure of evidence and you know the fingerprints all over the american security services the british security services the u.k. government and the british government are all over this i don't really have hidden the walk to actually took place and then the only place to decide the guilt or innocence of mr magara elmaghraby is of course in the scottish appeal court where we will be going and you cause ok i want to get also to the reprisal allegations concerning iran of course the united states killed $290.00 people on a civilian airliner the u.s.s. vincennes attack but this thing to what you just said because some people are going to be asking we can't get m i 5 and my 6 officers on the show or less why on earth them would mamma get off except it that mcgrath he did the deed and it was just to unfreeze bank accounts relieve sanctions and get a privatized british beeping to get an oil deal well i mean i can't i can't answer

for this to get happy. what the bottom line here is that there has to mean much disclosure over the years of the shenanigans of the british and the americans who have always been desperate to get their hands on oil who've been desperate to tie up arms and weapons deals you know tony blair the deal in the desert and at the end of the day if your country has been subjected to economic sanctions and your people are suffering and you see a way out of it then of course a sacrificial lamb will be offered up that's the way that the immigrant family and many people both the british relatives and the libyan people see it and 31 years later that the question the questions that remain of this case must be unset. i think it's pretty obvious that for anybody who's viewed how the british and the americans have acted with regards to the middle east and i still continues to this day one only needs to look at what's happening in iraq one only needs to see what's happening with iran how. these authorities say these regimes in britain and america deal with that when it comes to you know the profits when it comes to the hands of

oil or gas lines will be willing to do. anything or not that bought the topic not applies to the question of lockerbie ok britain did support the united states bombing of iraq killing iraqi soldiers and police and civilian just last week but surely the last time around when mcgrady was convicted the evidence was heard of f.b.i. agents there u.s. helicopters of the law can be seen a violation of the integrity of the crime scene as alleged by the lawyer actually who now represents julian assange. has evidence of a cia operative on the flight all this evidence wasn't at the time before a verdict on mcgrath he's guilty as may well one of the crucial pieces of evidence that the man and i'm just quite wide range would be impossible for me to explain you know we had 451 pages delivered to my office last week by the scottish criminal kuwait cases review commission so that found the basis of it we have pieces we have evidence that would fill 2 floors of a building but if you look at one crucial piece of evidence which was not disclosed

to the defense of the type and as the evidence of mr gates a man who owned a shop who fingered pointed the finger of blame mama. and said that he was the person who brought the call big in his shop some 10 years later 12 years later he pointed them in and subsequently what we find out once a clase is closed once guilt is pronounced is that this man was offered in the region of $2000000.00 money offered also to his brother to identify mr. mr mr mehlman groggy and that he got this wrong on a number of occasions he was shown photographs he was shown magazines he was wined and dined and he was brought to give evidence now in any other normal murder trial if it was revealed to the defense that an individual has been told on the basis of their evidence if he points at the right person and accuses them of murder then them that trial would be flown out and that would be an inquiry an investigation into the police the security says anybody that i don't try to offer a bribe or in juice me to

a witness yet in this case the worst case of mass murder on u.k. soil none of that happened. was no disclosure on the the a d. commission delivered a damning indictment of the role of the crone and others who were involved in this piece of evidence not just one crucial piece of evidence that we hope to take back to the appeal court and of course there are there are many other pieces about this is a present some of them to some of the witnesses that you might desire to have in the appeal stage presumably some of them have died i mean for instance there's a man called ma increase that too was a bomb maker reputedly again according to a lawyer because it worked with the militant group backed by iran that is back then he was an undercover jordanian intelligence agent apparently jordan's intelligence services link to the cia what will you be able to get him i mean is going to develop as a solicitor to get any of these people to testify on behalf of true enough it terms of that but what we need to remember is that the appeal is not a rerun of the trial you know we have several groans of appeal that we would wish

to to launch the commission appointed to but some many of the grounds have been incorporated into question of an unreasonable verdict but in the case of mr gates he's dead however we still have what evidence he gave in the question for the commission the question for the appeal court would be to decide is it reasonable to have allowed the evidence critical evidence of an individual like this on the answer we suspect would be no that is why the commission has referred it back to the appeal court so you don't much need to resurrect the date 2 of them to come to court but we won't be going to court to stand up and produce evidence that let's say another country was responsible or that this was all we required to show is that the verdict was unreasonable that the non-disclosure of the evidence meant that this conviction was unsafe and as a result of which you know mr al macgraw he should have a miscarriage of justice and that conviction should be overturned and that would also apply to the people of libya and the libyan people you know and the country that have suffered so much as a result of this you know the pariah state always when you mention the name a guy when i speak to their family the name is always one of attached to the

lockerbie bomber when you speak to libyan people they say they always they are at. the lockerbie bombing this is important it's about rett it's about rectifying history and he said by actually asking the questions of the british and americans why did you do this you know why did you light your own people why did you like to 21 countries why did you conduct such a cover up still has reverberations through the globe tool today and it's about making sure that those policies are corrected and people are held to account do you have to prove that the evidence not being disclosed was because of a a money line motive or could it be accidental i'm just thinking that they will be looking for a motive surely and the most you know it has been floated is that mrs thatcher was told by george w. bush george herbert walker bush sorry to keep the lockerbie investigation low key even after they had already got suspects for the for the terror attack well.

i don't think is a case of that we need to require to find a motive they dishy was if there is non disclosure then it's critical to the defense if the crown failed to tell the defense a crucial piece of evidence that might clear the accused they're not that's that's all that counts it doesn't matter about their motivation but of course you're quite right even today when last week 451 pages landed on my desk and i opened the you know the documents and i skimmed through them and all of a sudden i saw a blot redacted pages and i asked the commission what's this and what we found out was that even to today that the united states government the british government the federal republic of germany and security services had refused to disclose information that they relate to the commission and i got them to give an undertaking to say that would that would not be disclosed to defense so whilst information was provided to the commission as a result of which the commission said no we believe there is a serious risk of a miscarriage of justice and this should be referred back to be local we were not given privy we were not given access to the information of course we will fight for that information but that's we can put that to the site because the bottom line really comes down to this if there's

a piece of information is relate to court as evidence and the 3 judges are not able to see the information. nation and therefore you know come to a considered decision in the same way that judy what did not means that there is a miscarriage of justice and that is all that is required to be done in not courtroom all night day saying that. he should never ever have been convicted of the watched act of murder on british soil. thank you thank you for the show we're back on saturday for a special edition of going on the ground with the man with the war figures from malcolm x. to. 17 years after the u.s. u.k. war in iraq that left millions killed maimed or displaced until then join me on the ground by following up on you tube twitter facebook instagram.

the outbreak of the coronavirus has become a black swan event for the global economy is no longer whether the u.s. and other economies will slip into recession but question now how long the recession will last it's going to get worse before it gets better. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to us from the world of politics or business i'm show business i'll see you then.

a glance at the stories we're focusing on today donald trump invokes a war. zone of urgency response to the. forcing american companies to run production with. the new shot said supporters to limit the spread of covert 96 district this measures in the blog correspondent reports from paris anybody leaving the home team is also being told that they need to look at some stats to state line. on the world health organization urges countries to follow big.