the process of breaks it until it changes taking place in arlington or on service has caused both also acting on you thinking among both the nationalist i'm eunice communities now back to alex in belfast a peace process requires peace because politicians love the imagination to leap across history but it also has to be understood today i speak to professor duncan murrell know miles foremost our could emmott on the subject of empty bigotry and reconciliation between communities. well professor mo welcome to the examined sure thank you so much glad to be here. you are probably the most published academic in terms of reconciliation between the communities and northern ireland the good of course of you to expertise to help then to say drove in scotland what how do you get communities to stop distrusting. it's not a simple question and it goes back to so many different dimensions and i suppose

actually for us it was trying to find practical ways into that right along the border so i mean everything in northern ireland is affected in some way by this division so you're talking about how to sort the police can you get the politicians to work together can you then get schools to start to educate people in a different way how do people at local level actually stop just walking past each other but start to run things together and a lot of our work was really just almost stepping i don't know that ice trying to find the practical ways forward on an interface you know in the trade unions in the workplace in schools and it was in many ways an experiment how do you do it i mean and we found quite a lot of different answers for that in different ways you see we who you speak well i think there's a kind of different levels we i was in the community relations council and i was a very much involved in trying to support and develop those kind of initiative so we were actually looking for them but we were doing that i suppose on behalf of the

whole community and really when you look at the number of actors if you current what politicians have had to contemplate working with people who they associated with well not too fine a point of murder campaigns with a systems which they profoundly phoned and just they had to work together the police had to find a way to engage with communities who previously didn't want to know them you had schools trying to bring people together where parents were looking at them saying what are you doing you had interfaces river throwing stones then how do you cut that down to the way he was actually very broad this been 20 years of. trying to find the cracks i think and we were the space to have that dialogue i mean and all your cell bill your father were very influential in the phone dish and of the column you look community but the bust be in the modern hard mile of the must be space is taking place in the political arena with politics between communities online well how do you find a space where people can have that dialogue. i actually think you're talking by the

actual definition of what we mean by the peace process which is when things are really hot i have to say the spaces become narrower and narrower and narrower they're only the small spaces i think that was their experience incarnate it was hard to keep it alive in the middle of what is effectively a war is too strong but nevertheless a mass of conflict where people are or into themselves towards that i think the peace process has all been about answering that question other words shouldn't be anywhere where we can't have a conversation so politics was a really key arena and still remains actually one of the more complex arenas because it keeps breaking down under the stress is that you have institutions which are really important cause there carry on the law and people's sense of justice so how do people coalesce around issues of what good policing looks like or that's been the thing and they use that quite often because they've got the big one another one is schools you know we have a whole lot of institutions which are either places where people learn to be adults in one way or another way so how do you use those there are community organizations

but also workplaces need to learn to treat people fairly and straight and if that's not happening and people feel intimidated in the workplace so i when you talk about space what i would say is there are opportunities everywhere the question is what's actually available now and keeping that opportunistic kind of approach to these things but also i understand it's comprehensive in the end statement is it no. realistic to think of to try. and the nationalist traver unionist try is that in a totally dramatic oversimplification or does still have the kernel of truth i think you have to be careful to before you walk away too quickly. there is no doubt that things have shifted a bit particularly for some married say for under forty's who have an experience over the last 20 years of a more open plural society longer simple they travel they are interested in social

change the issues like gay marriage or abortion have taken their enthusiasm more than the constitutional issue and they actually resist being pigeonholed back into this but if you ask a question like. you know where does the border go then people start to take a view again and one of the questions we don't know is we'll take a slightly different view because it's asked by blacks than they did before is there new constellations emerging we're in the process now and that's the question we're asking the duncan i'm going to go a little to imagination let's say i was last to unionist. and i was looking at the prospect of a board in the irish sea beaten. by those jobs as i would see it. a lab you fearful of the future. is the rule of of peacemakers conciliatory dialogue needless to reassure meat or is that something

really i've got to do myself the process support i think the job that i would have in that context is where do i get or provide the context we're on see if conversations can actually happen without there being disasters and i think sometimes people think you know trying to make peace is about avoiding the issues it's not at all actually in a funny strange way it's about going head on into them but then trying to create the context of them which i can actually face it and begin to address it with the real people i have to address it with so the question you ask where does unionist go no i think i was at a meeting last night where somebody remarked the difficulty is unionism doesn't want to have this conversation because they're frightened that if they start the conversation they'll make it real where we go or 3 nights are and so on and there is a complex there and out but i think it might be possible to design things where if not unionism but unionists began to explore the ice at least even to find out what

it is they can and can't accept and begin to put conversations in a more complex way but politics in the end will have to deal with this because politics in the end will also shape the situation we're in because of boris johnson's decisions we are in one situation if it had been different 3 months ago we were in a different situation we have to keep changing the context but we have to keep talking about well where you have a safe place for the real conversations not for the avoidance but for the real thing and sailors are probably a much easier much less of a leap of the imagination and irish nationalist politician apparently winning the border issue in the sense that the border seems to be in the sea or going to be from brits. perhaps frightened that the loss of the european or the only puts at risk some of the the gun tease from the the good friday agreement so how do i get reassured that the same process for me is never exactly the same no it's not

it's a different process because the fears aren't the same even though they're interconnected i would say ferrari's nationalism as it contemplates in real terms what a new ireland very united ireland or look like actually at the moment is a big up there because a lot of it has been rhetoric a lot of us have been talk it's been based on a loss that happened a 100 years ago rather than a plan for what's actually real in the european context no and i think for example some of the issues that are arising are people in the north who have lived through 40 years of conflict and 60 years before that a feeling that they were separated don't have the same experience or the same understanding of this as people who lived outside that and the irish conversation has to begin a different way so everybody has chairs shifting here and there are bits going to have to rear or interior conversations and that is it possible for politicians of both communities to be fearful similar to mislead so it's not

a month on one is obviously losing what is obviously winning that both can actually be looking at the worst side of us and hopefully be if that's possible is it possible to be commuters look at the best side of well i think you're actually describing nearly what we're seeing at this moment which is i think you could track alienation from british politics as it is currently experienced. but hasn't yet crystallized into a huge demand for a united ireland so both sides are uncertain about where this goes or nobody really is certain and at the other side i think politicians are nervous to give too much shape to this so a lot of this and you asked where the spaces in what the language of know is deliberative conversations separate conversations places where people begin to explore this without prejudice to the political outcome because they need to narrow the ground on to what the real issues are and actually explore before politicians

take a view but time may not be honest i mean things are happening these decisions about the border will happen within a year that. whatever happens we will be in a change circumstance and 12 months time and again we have to calibrate that so i want to give you 2 simple answer is that he has a massive opportunity academics have a massive opportunity media has a massive opportunity to begin to explore these things politicians will need to prepare themselves but we'll have to keep calibrating it to reality and one last question in this when you speak to a group of. not just young people the people under the age of 30 youngish let's call them. you know what are you talking there are many other priorities that society should be looking up to the additional divides and is that because the they haven't lived through the troubles or is it because just society

is opening up and changing or so many ways of people nor knowledge of having the same influences as elsewhere. i think again it's complicated answers but there are some young people who are still stuck i suppose if that's the right word but still caught in the old stuff and some of there is you would need that but many young people as you say climate change is the issue or the issue is what do we do oppose relationships when. and or even is being discussed all of these conversations are our life there may be at some level kind of resentment for some of the young people this conversation is coming back at the good friday agreement was meant in some ways to put the old stuff to bed to allow that to flourish brax that is something which hasn't really been driven from the norm and it's been driven from its site so there are young people i think are trying to adjust themselves to the fact that a conversation on the table that isn't there a conversation about maybe also they'll bring something new to their brain

a solution which says hey we're not looking for that all types of action for looking to use this is an opportunity to reconfigure what we do and they may have a decisive influence. trade and investment have become magic spells to conjure economic development. most people think about trade they think about goods and services being exchanged between countries and the investor chapter of a trade agreement is about something very different but what when investment leads to toxic manufacturing that destroys secret sites all ruins the environment. that means that if local communities that are being poisoned if they object if they do anything that the company feels is interrupting their profits they can be certain.

the nationals are taking on a whole nation's philip morris is trying to use i.s.t.'s to stop tour of the way from implementing new tobacco regulations aimed at cutting domestic smoking rates a french company sued egypt because egypt raise its minimum wage democratic choice over trump corporate law joining us as we try to find don't want to go to. russia they teach in the cheek a total more than the secret that holds most true to me your he said it's not that he cheated some chances that always shifting against. him.

quickly because you know i said you needed at least a day you got a little bit i was going to have been scheming to show. it to the shoney's. in the us well to the south korean his or stow them the tea some corn from the. that you could do with this mr west that's the level of. welcome back i'm speaking to professor duncan murrell normile and foremost academic on the subject of reconciliation between communities. and your role as a reconciling let's let's let's call you the. needler. do you sometimes when you're

seeing the political debate in the north of file and. let's not do a names of politicians but do you you see if supporters are saying something or doing stuff they are making a list of you say. well this is right on the mot regardless of which party which community do you do you see sometimes the the sparkle something that you have been waiting to to hear or is the political dialogue still trapped and old slogans i think everybody would say we have seen some really quite remarkable things here you know even those very early images of evolution are all kind of americans against the backdrop here these are people saying look at the whole brothers not just martin mcguinness brothers. in paisley together mostly that i mean who could ever project that from where we were 20 years before that nobody. when. a young

constable was killed in. by a distant group. in about 10 years ago peter robinson went to the service and the g.a.a. carried the coffin of the young policeman those were both symbols to me of how that could happen before ga were where the people who are the irish cultural association who are long associated with irish nasserism very critical of the police but because one of their members was a new policeman they carried the coffin the 1st minister who by his religious convictions normally wouldn't go into a catholic church went to the funeral may seem like small things but symbolically they were very important for northern ireland i don't think we can quite go back from there we're going to do something that mainly people would see when they visited the law and in the past they would come back with a hugely positive impression of the friends of us that gave us nature of the open heartedness of the of the people and see if you will how left from. what i

experienced be reconciled with the violence that we're seeing in these days on the television screens. a lesson that any society regardless of how friendly and open hearted can descend into into the pit of the abyss oh certainly it is and in some ways you know. the humor is driven by the fact of that's how you cope you know you have to turn it into a joke or the warmth is in some ways because people know that matters in the context of a conflict i don't know think of myself as a reconciler in the sense of any of it is think that i think about my interest is where do we get the spaces where those 2 things come together where we can use people human recognition of each other but actually in this space are prepared to begin to look at what the problems are actually are there emotional. relationship to them what changes might be possible and that's the trick. question for us one of

the 2 societies probably couldn't be close a little on god self scotland and northern ireland blunder for blood borne of a board in the hopes. scotland a serious sectarian problem you provided an invaluable help to the station i lead but the success of scottish scottish government's but scottish cited despite see this clearly a difficulty doubled to say the in to the sort of violence that we saw in northern ireland i'm interested to get any insight into why scotland pulled back from that period and bring we'll have more on. the senate into the troubles any particular clues in the us with a couple of things i mean obviously sectarianism never defined scotland's political discussion in the same way i mean here the issue of sectarianism can never be fabricated from issues of where does the border go and matters of control over

paths i don't scotland i think terrorism was a significant issue in communities it certainly shape it was experience of immigration at the their economy at times was affected by it you have institutions which reflect some of that story and some places of course you do the reality is that once the violence starts. you have more groans for resentment then she ever had and in scotland thankfully it never in general part from the audience didn't escalate it up to that point which was that people hadn't actually experience that they were under threat in their house or under threat when they were in the street or they wore the wrong color it was an exceptional instant when that happened here i'm afraid it's got a pattern and it has organization and it has a symbol and a political cause on all sides and that means that it's quite hard to switch off because you can go down the street very quickly and meet people who say

sectarianism isn't a theory for me it's what happened to my dad it's what happened to my family it's what the reason i can't do this or that and i think in scotland luckily it never quite took that the kind of cancerous form of the disease it is it's still a disease but it hasn't actually quite eaten into the structure in the same way but if we take a quick. history would have been periods a lot of this history of the 1797 for example early elated irishman related presbyterians in the north of viable catholics in the in the sofa violet was saved west of our. and then the national question was the oppose wasn't seen as a religious divide the top some of the great figures of irish last of them have been protestants charles tripple well for example is a protestant what how did the religion become the defining feature of the of the political course where you're absolutely right of course it's a complicated matter there are different phases and forms of this religion and

politics mix in different ways now and clear the irish politics which is separate from the other places too because every orangeman would also agree that they are involved in a certain form of irish politics. nevertheless you know the long history of britain was a state which was defending a kind of a present settlement against catholic powers for a long time that created serious local problems and serious issues in ireland and that has lasted and modernized in the 19th century so that unionism and nationalism became especially you became a defense of a certain kind of idea of liberty and freedom and i think that once violence as i said you get into that story people aren't then discussing ideas any more they're defending themselves against their enemies and once that happens it's not just a question of do i agree with you it's kind of 11th you i want that kind of love that you we have then got

a lot of work to get through because it's you know i may even be able to say i can see the value of a united ireland be one possible idea bar i don't trust you running that's why i'm against it or the other way around i don't find the united kingdom that i'm comfortable but you know something what you did to my family makes it impossible for me to reconcile so we have both a story of different ideas competing but we also have people who are trying to work through what was there for them. easily picked up in a time of fragility or fear and that always has been our history you mentioned a couple of memorable moments of reconciliation the death of the young policeman and who gathered to feel the brevity of paisley a must mcgillis together those 1st minister deputy 1st minister of ireland there were you a very close you could look to in the future really gathering for you look at the

not the work is finished but i can see the the sunlight through the clothes. if you're talking a kind of big television event of course you know there removal of the walls in belfast would be. a dramatic moment we still have peace walls between communities here which are still there because the population still feel that if the can down the risk so the removal of those not because some group has left but because they actually want to work through it's obviously always dramatic moment i think as the immigration debate is going on we're one of the places where immigration might actually be a very good thing for us because it would take us out of the local kind of obsession and give us an opportunity to put our history into context that we're part of a wider globe and so sometimes actually the people who have brought the biggest change have been unexpected people people who've come here from and since the peace process one of the biggest changes was their arrival of people rather than the

departure of people from northern ireland and that would be a great symbol you know if you look at the changes that have happened in ireland south of the border in the last 30 years i mean ireland has almost reimagines itself as a country where people might not just leave and sings that song as it were the departure but actually be a place where people will want to come or return to that they've come away from and then change the way in which it operates and i suppose if we could participate and i'm not particularly hung up on where the constitutional border lies but i would say to you if we in the north could begin to participate in that kind of experience that we have rejoined there were other there just obsessed by our piece was that would be a big change and of course public could no longer be described as a theocratic state nearly sensible the sensible ups the the irish state has been transformed substantially the british state in recent years i think are and has

gone through huge changes and the changes are to do with. economic success but they're also to do with a feeling that under this for europe so important for them within europe i think for our land it was no longer an obsessional relationship with. history and with england it became a baker story and they were able to kind of talk differently and i think one of the consequence of that was lots of people came back most of new people arrived the political conversation began to change and so the theocratic issue has become to tonsure in the last 2 years island has not just changed the law on emotive moral issues like abortion or gay marriage it has done so by evil. that wasn't done by an elite deciding this was time to happen that was done by popular vote and that's actually i think almost unique across the globe so it does show that change is possible and that under certain circumstances things begin to

move and things which were thought of as impossible or very unlikely. even 20 years ago have no happened and finally the 1st model is the european issue. still got somewhere to run in terms of its impact on the north of ireland not post much snow and we have the the customs border is going to be looking at because that whoops life is going to be an early see thank you more of the you have been a shoo in terms of affecting the mind of the of the people is that some impact still to be felt i think the european issue will probably for project you will know as well as i do that the consequences for the constitution of the u.k. are absolutely unsettled so if things happen in scotland they're not sure that that will be unnoticed here in fact i'm absolutely sure it will have massive consequences the way in which we relate to the rest there were may be defined by

where the border goes and how the border operates. and so i don't want to be too protective because actually i'm not even sure where precisely we are going but i am 100 percent sure that we're still going to be wrestling with the consequences of this conversation for quite a long time as a model thank you very much i know in the interests of celtic unity i will present you were for a quick scot to scale it and the one stipulation i would have for passing know your friends is only scottish another side stuff. healthy effect on call of our thank you very much. professor duncan morrow is an example of a rare but important breed one of those who have worked to transcend political and community differences and enable the peace 30 years of troubles have been followed by 20 years of peace and that sometimes fragile but always precious state has held despite a variety of political pressures over the last 2 decades none of these has been

more challenging than bricks it which has provoked uncertainty in both communities unionists because of the proposed border and the irish sea and nationalists because of the fear of losing the european union guarantor to the good friday agreement in the next issues will listen to the views of unionist and nationalist politicians and to community activists and indicate both new thinking actually assessment taking place across both communities to find a way forward for all of the people of northern ireland thank you thank you and.

you are no offense but you no longer a young woman in fact you are one of the last living survivors of the nazi else asked i'm aware of it. all you like. you can never forget we're going now auschwitz was really like to be inhaled because you would never believe it was a human candle to as a hobbit cause for 30 years and most of the prayer of it it all seems so a lot offered by the same way to make it right when i get out on the farm saw you don't want to take my son to her next day or so he can listen and hopefully bless her experience. the washington consensus led by the united states says the liberal world order must be defended at almost all costs said differently the foreign policy demands the post cold war you know polar moment be preserved but

alas it would seem multi-polar world has already arrived. early friday morning here in moscow in the headlines the coronavirus death toll in . one city the army's draft to help transport. building a new hospital complex to treat cope with 900 patients and a bit of panic buying we look at supply levels here in the russian capital. particularly sensitive subject lately toilet paper while. any type of budget and he. is clearly enough everyone. to the story of a nurse in the u.k. who claim she was racially abused on her way to work as the country's health.