at least killed maimed or displaced coming up in the show as coronavirus displaces all other news we ask legendary activist and inspiration for the rolling stone street fighting man tariq ali if anything has changed since he took part in the biggest global peace protest of the 21st century against the unchecked imperialism the destroyed iraq and destabilize the world plus as the coronavirus pandemic continues to ravage europe what does it mean for capitalism kashmir and the future of the world's most famous publisher julian assange. also more coming up in today's going on the ground but let's go straight to one of the greatest living political activists and writers who has inspired antiwar figures were malcolm x. to john lennon tariq ali joins us from his north london home via skype tired thanks so much for coming on the program i have to declare an interest because you brought me to channel 4 in the 1980 s. and you were my boss but what would you say now to the millions who have been inspired by your work the fight for freedom and justice that you've undertaken in your life what would you say to them who are now profoundly pessimistic about the

neo liberal response to a pandemic let alone gross inequality around the world well basically. we fight on . difficult to come out on the streets because the nature of this epidemic but i think what the epidemic actually teaches is that the system under which we live is soundly flaw. and it does not alter the world a future that is worth living to boarded at its heart i mean the notion that well is the only do not of nature prove the earth. and then to this day and wealthy people will get their way. by saving their lives so don't brag but what about the rest what's the world so i teach the new learned.

look up until a system which is being enforced now effectively since the eighty's and charm since the ninety's of the last century needs to be dismantled all the countries that are seriously attempting to come to grips with this epidemic i mean macro in france was korea who was election is based on making france until near liberal state has now been forced to reverse all that and offering to pay the utility beers council tax look you know people not so well off except shows that deep down this entirely oh through worst major government in the western world are aware that the system which they're being defended and supporting doesn't work for a majority of people that's the lesson to be drawn after the virus has been tackled

there and should if i may just say one of the countries that are shown no panic because it is bad for these claims is the tiny island of cuba where cruise ships which are not allowed to land anywhere on joc anywhere jocking even cuba being greeted by the population of seoul and are to be greeted by their doctors and the cubans are sending free medicines all over africa now that is the mob whereas in the west this didn't come to sight with or to maintain sanctions against iran or venezuela which is totally and completely disgusting then this is still going on when those in the higher world is facing this crisis in fairness to bars johnson's foreign office and a stand that the british government have thanked the cuban government for taking the ship the braemar into port but certainly no. intimation from here about the

u.s. sanctions on the island i want to get on to some of those other issues a bit later and today's anniversary of the iraq war but you're also a novelist and putting your novelist hat on how do you characterize near liberal culture and art given the fact that most people's cultural imagination of a pandemic is really from hollywood and from films that what we have to go on well i mean you know it's lost both of the culture today it obviously is dominated by a form of neo liberalism which ill courage is individual as some of the most group has sort of you know this and be worshiped of 1st celebrities then someone of scrutiny well known on television or a very strong. actor is almost greeted as a god and this is really deep deep you know become much much worse over the last

30 to 40 years so this. proves various people almost not completely from thinking collectively and actually it's not tell by the technology i think that the old internet revolution mistaken please encourage as individual ism of course it needs i mean the number of people you run into on the buses all the tubes or on pavement so even on their bikes their ears see you know from the noises of the real world if i can put it like that their eyes sealed off from what is going on around them because they're concentrating on ones that are normal on the singles grange now it needn't be like this but that is what it's become and i think in it so i'm strange frightening eerie way what we. we're witnessing now is people beginning to think again beyond themselves

holy wall is you know produce the old film like contagion what does that do it just creates korea i mean the thing is. a lot to create fear but to create open not to create better 70 but to encourage people to be to be active and they is now at the station response to this crisis i mean someone wrote from send up all saying that here in south korea and in japan the the detainee's testing testing the entire population radially and not banning contact with each other except physical contact so there are many many different ways of looking at it from the fact that the chinese themselves. bought it was not was in the new place it be recorded anywhere in the country shows that actually

in the interests of ordinary people and have been a factor anyway more about the united states where you don't even have 3 elephants it's deeply shocking the richest most powerful country in the world treat its population because of capitalists dock on us and the one candidate and being for a. national health service in the united states is most likely to be defeated but a sleepy joe biden so it's a very weird big ship but i think there are lessons to be i think many people are saying that if this is what you have to do in emergencies why can't you change the way in we treat live well hollywood at least the is how a lot of people describe what happened 17 years ago today when the world woke up to the pictures of u.s. and u.k. . the bombing of baghdad why is it still relevant what happened in 2003 why is it

still relevant to all our lives right now because it's still going on that's the 1st reason that it was 17 years ago it was iraq. and the the comments that are being inflicted on this country the brutality the cruelty the u.s. do not to by. doing everything possible to divide shias from sudanese and one day playing with the shia giving them. which makes your arm the center of our in the region and then suddenly blaming other forces for it no good it it did it i'm out there touting iran and they're. basically using the saudis to control the sunni population. and most important to

a whole describing the social infrastructure of that country that is will hit disaster doubtless a mess my friend noomi klein calls it that it's all day here in iraq they just strolling to an entire country and if you think about it today well the entire world is thinking about grown up wires i have absolutely no doubt and i can say this with confidence that the health service created by the iraqi series of iraqi governments was one of the best in the middle east in order to be much better able to cope with this resident the moment in iraq a wall that triggered off another wall in the region. syrian. war there created massive movement of populations in refugees that this war is still going on even a sort of picture out keep them. she is appealing to the united states to withdrew

all its troops from the region and it's being ignored you talk to many iraqis to do of all political persuasions and they will say openly we are much better off under our 2nd that is what they say can i just say can i guess a terry if anyone thinks you're an apologist for saddam hussein you made me work on a program in the eighty's about thatcher's support for saddam hussein what is it like actually personally given that you came under pressure for that channel of a program because he was an ally of britain and then over the if it's which is a matter for folks we would join for cham for if you remember who was. the architect of fear and we were it was an ultra political program showing those who built these gigantic monumental statues of a model from so the. speech went like this and dominated.

especially in the military areas the parade grounds and we were doing a critical piece of this and we came under a lot of pressure not to do it i remember i should when you or someone else researching that program rack up the company in basingstoke in an area in the inner loop. which did the baddies big arms made created them and then shipped the answer to both that they said why ain't going to sets of credibly. so many of us who are true critical of. when he was actually in our. work then attacked for opposing a iraq war you live in a strange world priorities are decided by your rules and decided which depending on whom the united states as. settled on as the enemy of the month and disses become

an enemy of the poor need to get kits i mean if you think the iraq war that american soldiers are still that libya has been destroyed that syria is trying to recover from an horrific civil war then afghanistan is still occupied all of these holes have lasted longer than the 1st and 2nd world wars book to get and they carry are and what angers me is that citizens in most of the western world a europe north america sleep or care every day basically ignore a lot their governments and their countries have been doing to the middle east which isn't as state of. rhetoric destruction on many many levels politically socially economically culturally and the palestinians left with

absolutely nothing and the 2 basically supported by the united states israel. and egypt receiving huge subsidies to this dig for acquiescing in what has been happening. since anniversary and all souls of. monsters are emerging from the aftermath of this war people who say attack isis it's the ones group who created it did it come about al-qaeda was not present in iraq under saddam was that it went in with the american troops and the troops of other countries supporting them so it's it's not difficult to do to draw direct link between the bombing of all those years ago and the state of the middle. that britain in the united states

of course to this day completely did i creating isis diaster stop you then more from after this short break. seemed wrong. just don't call. me. to shape out these days. and in gains from it because of the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. blushes and thank you for the cheek a total morsel of each ticket holders through team your set it's not that it's in thoughts or shots that always sting against. them under.

the youth of those you know circle included at least when you're a lawyer that i was called but it doesn't cover to have been skewed to show. for an approach from grieving families. in the us but in the such brilliant users tell them not to be come forward in some depth or. deny me a check of the british mr west imo sure but. welcome back i'm still here with tariq ali you were speaking at rallies the largest global

demonstration in history was against the iraq war and last does it not show that protest marches do not stop was like the one that happened 17 years ago today and what difference was iraq to vietnam because obviously mick jagger and the rolling stone sang about your opposition to the vietnam war how is it different i think the main difference is more that into the world in the ninety's in my b.b. and the fact that the soviet union collapsed that china the way it did it created a trade. game our ally station even amongst people who basically didn't support these governments but saw them as creating a space between 2 blocks and in that space we can all function and live and be critical of one year aside and we want to do ones that counterbalance

disappeared the united states of the game v. had no money and power in the global scale and people follow them and alternatives that the iraq iraq war demonstration in my opinion was the 1st sign that people were searching for something else 1st day by saying don't make war on iraq and these demonstrations were huge in your but if we look back on it over a 1000000 people in london 2000000 people in madrid nearly 3000000 in a row. over 200002 new york hundreds of thousands all over the phone shit garko every american city in provincial capital state capital was infected and effected by a desire to stop the war they were ignored and one reason they were ignored is that

they had no following and little support in parliament when you have the republicans and the democrats waging war. and supporting it when you have too many black band prime minister in britain the conservative opposition supporting the war then you know you can have 2 or 3000000 people and you know that it's a reality of it and been never came out again and those numbers i remember saying at the big demonstration they're no longer we're all trying to fight against the war don't imagine it won't take place or words to that effect and really more obscure with this start bombing where we didn't we couldn't them all satinder but effectively they got away with it but it will be wrong to draw from this the conclusion their protest is useless it may not always be effective

but creating a different public opinion is extremely important i am not now and nothing's being done. and these really occupation has been sanctified by a crime back and terror de facto by the european union days no chance of the palestinians getting any form of state even the most not only. the present time nothing happens the world is garcia is that total ghetto completely wrecked by disease the palestinian authority has got so used to collaboration with the israelis that they basically don't know what to do when they oppose what's playing now i mean they participated in creating this situation where the british look what happens not a marketplace that's what i say but that doesn't mean we stop arguing your baiting mobilising i mean life would be awful if one just became well the british the labor

party his ministers obviously committed us to war in iraq 17 years ago obviously. protecting israel arguably after the after the jeremy corbyn years why do you think that this same labor party as it were is so keen to re-invite people who are associated with the iraq war back even to the party including i mean care started a leading figure once tony blair's head of war propaganda alastair campbell back in the labor party is this opposition party does it understand what you've been saying there well i think there are 2 things one has to see about a party what is the insurrection on little girl insurrection of the young country and we call bill interim our power as fracture. in my opinion and momentum became exclusively and crucially if not

exclusively 80 percent of it through our low there mick in addition to that also doing a lot of political campaigning political education etc so that the strength of traditional live grewsome which is that the only thing we do is win the election is now back in falls the left was given no chance the left was defeated not even going who is asking. searching for why the left was defeated in refusing to accept their need was because labor joined him all the parliamentary moorings to prevent a referendum from being implemented to care starmer let me just say obviously associated according to the un with the persecution of julian a son church from whom and because of whom we know so much more about iraq than we have a did back then how frightened are you for julian assads can i just as the founder

of wiki leaks given he's in belmarsh prison and governors of prisons in this country obviously are worried about the spread of coronavirus i'm extremely worried about truly moon for many many. i mean initially it seemed that they were imposing a regime not really cheating on him in that prison which could have led to him know the depths that his order number of doctors said and then the governor of the prison. brutish rager who none of the judges wanted to try to change because it's not neagle that the governor's domain which is not good for breast baring befall them is not an offense state to give evidence they have every right to challenge. the governor of the prince who julian is deliberately being mistreated the case is completely manufactured new smells so the un report on torture has made a very powerful intervention saying that the what took place in sweden when he was

accused of rape something you always deny and was defending crap not processed and designed to discredit him and lose all which was relatively successful i think many people seem to prove that but the fact is this accusation against judy. on security matters is completely bizarre and everyone else it is the americans know it's the only when they can get him back into the states the british and know that this is a political decision it has nothing to do with the law and i'm going along with it and i hope that some sense prevails when the case goes to the supreme court and this concrete because it is quite shocking what has happened to julie and i hope years said were to go to mess a many many years ago as known to a few lessons. from that and i think this is something wait show even boris

johnson who is being the most of his life we journalists should understand if you agree to. what the americans are asking you to do i mean to do it very. exposed war crimes tomorrow it could affect other journalists who spose other things which the united states didn't want to expose an american soldier already have set washington is dead any foreign journalists the us constitution doesn't apply to them so they can pick anyone up and kick their over to washington to be crying since most governments do their bidding and eat certainly the torture has been written about people who watch our interviews with meals melt of the un special rapporteur on torture better if one can forgive a media in a coronavirus crisis for not covering the sun is not covering the the continued

bombing of iraq backed by britain of by the united states in the past few days. there is that this nation being passed through parliament and if it's not martial law its military immunity legislation. what do you think about why boris ronson is keen on pursing immunity for british soldiers is it somehow emblematic of british intervention 3 mile island to iraq absolutely. clear you want to stay out late a situation where british soldiers are immune from. prosecution i mean this is something we've fought against in many countries where the military is often little part of the military shouldn't out these days it's a big call to against in the united states where many antiwar activists want to u.s. officers involved in massa goes from being mammals charged to cry. it is still done to those who the west regards it as its enemies the international

criminal court functions just as a court goes who are guarded as enemies of the west so it's i don't own a circle of what is going on well just finally in the when it comes to colonial legacies kashmir is of course a colonial legacy and the sudan the indian government has again put it under total lockdown we had the high commissioner on this shows that it was being freed up a little of course it is the center of a nuclear possible nuclear conflict just tell me what you think about our coronavirus for instance can be used as an excuse to do all sorts of things by different governments but especially what on earth is happening in kashmir sheer is . the highest incidence of grunow iris afflictions anywhere in india. and the recent focus is that large numbers of

missionaries are in prison many are in concentration camps not being given medical aid. from some of the reports out all from friends being left to die and the world. stays silent because the world today's world likes know in their own body and the be shippey because they are of global strategic planning. on many issues so the schmear is being ignored the lock down on me took place many months ago when india abandoned its own constitution and effectively said major was going to be integrated and the rest of india very few protests i mean made a few protests but they were 32 to a very few are countries backed. me course so the question remains like the

palestinians are today very isolated and you know one feels for them and the other thing on this i have to say is that i'm very glad there's an opposition in indiana resistance on the new citizenship muti is implemented and this is quite deep in many provinces but all those people who defend muslims on the citizenship law have remained not all but maybe most of those have remained silent on the question me and the reason they remain silent is because question here is regarded as a security issue because of terrorism immigration which don't play as many years ago and stopped many years ago to by and large so in the end speak up on that issue mean or as far as bush you mean as. terrible silence as both 80 and i mean the speech will you know live in it i mean i would be if i did live it

name is very noticeable how little solidarity there has been with krishna he's over there invite the high commissioner for india back on land the israeli ambassador in london tie got a thank you. that's it for the show will be back on monday as the coronavirus death toll. was theoretical physicist professor brian green about the clothes that surrounds the only other little known universe aware of its own mortality humans until then with yourself isolating the frontline join the underground by following us from you tube twitter facebook instagram and. the last 10 or 15 years we've moved to the era of big data where so much from our reality of our environment and our society is governed by experts and data and now thanks to coronavirus this is all being stripped away it's all nonsense the corona

virus is now bringing back to america some intuitive sense of self-reliance is going to be a difficult adjustment don't. have nearly 800 deaths due to the corona virus in the past 24 hours alone russia offers to lend a helping hand to the nation at worst hit by the crisis. meanwhile in neighboring friends police officers threaten to quit unless they are provided with better equipment to protect themselves against the virus. plus going to become the latest car giant to halt production amid the cove in $1000.00 outbreak i think health crisis ever more jobs at risk. and a number of u.s. senators are accused of insider trading after they sold off their stocks just before.