only. to keep in mind that to me and places. for. a low end welcome to cross talk we're all things are considered peter lavelle from donald trump in 2016 to tulsa gobert in 2020 there is part of the electorate that responds to anti-war anti interventionist rhetoric in fact there is evidence to significantly helped get trump elected but the fact remains the establishment is keen to downplay and even demonize any candidate who questions foreign policy orthodoxies why is this.

in the foreign policy blog i'm joined by my guest brian becker in washington he's the director of the answer coalition as well as host of loud and clear a daily news show on radio sputnik in minneapolis we have tony was our oh he is director of big tent republicans pac and in dayton we crossed the he's a syndicated cartoonist and opinion column this are democrats liberals in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciate brian let me go to you 1st in the swamp you know watching this ridiculous impeachment hoax being played out which almost no one is watching here we're all told about the differences you know that separate the republicans and the democrats conservatives and it's very very tribal the media makes a ton of money off of what i said i would suppose i would hope for them because not many people are watching it not many people are interested in it but there's there's this huge huge failure in the media in the political class talking about what is really bipartisan and foreign wars and intervention is the bipartisan

issue they keep it together it's like the glue that keeps the establishment together and i don't care if it's the republicans or the democrats how do you react go ahead. well i agree of course i mean the greatest single recent example of this in addition to the impeachment trial would be the house of representatives passing the national defense authorization act and the way they allocated authorized 700 and $38000000000.00 to the military and to its commander in chief that would be donald trump at the moment that they were impeaching donald trump and that number that $738000000000.00 was more than trump asked for and it was more than the pentagon asked for and it also not only basically violated the outer space treaty of 1967 by creating a space force and declaring that yes the democrats too would insist that outer

space the heavens be the next war fighting domain i mean this is an indicator that even though they're squabbling they're fighting they're fighting over the you know the great prize of being the leader of the state that allocates a trillion dollars of contracts every year when it comes to the empire when it comes to the military industrial complex when it comes to be in a surveillance state in the so-called intelligence community which is not a community it's a bunch of spy agencies there's a complete consensus here in washington we used to think of the neo conservatives as part of the george w. bush legacy not anymore it's the republicans and the democrats it is the consensus position you know tony i mentioned in my introduction 2016 and i remember very clearly and i think even brian was on a program that we discussed this donald trump came out and really kind of shook up the works by questioning foreign policy orthodoxies me why are we doing this why are we spending so much money on it why do we get for it ok now i have to say as a conservative i'm not a member of the republican party but as

a conservative i have i am disappointed because i wanted to see more i wanted to see the war in afghanistan come to an end and we need to get out of iraq we're not wanted there any more and you have the majority of some polling that the majority of veterans. it wasn't worth it now i know that the deep state the permanent state the permanent bureaucracy is constantly pushing back against the president but at the same time he is the commander in chief and i think there's a part of the electorate there that kind of feels the way i do is that we wanted more from this president when it came to foreign policy issues go ahead tony. yeah i thought it was very interesting in 2016 when the president at that time candidate trump went after jeb bush extremely hard attacked you know george w. bush and really you know had a huge support among republican primary voters and it really proved that you know even the republican base was just completely sick of these wars and if that's the republican base that will really tell you something about you know the middle and

the left so i think we've really turned a corner as far as getting out of afghanistan i mean obviously you know barack obama in 20082012 campaign heavily on you know completely getting out of the middle east as much as possible you know i'm not i'm not a general or commander or anything so i can't say you know how realistic it is to really get out 100 percent after you know what lindsey graham's and john mccain's have you know really done after so many decades in middle east but i do think you know don't you think tony that you know since the afghan papers have been revealed would you believe any of those generals because they all lied they all lied to the commander in chief they all lied to the media and they all lied to themselves ok and hardly got any kind of coverage by goodness and yet ted let me go to you and dayton here but this shows again you know when we went looking at these opposing forces as we reported by media it actually there's a real consensus in the political elite to keep this all going no of course it's

quite lucrative for the arms edition we all know that and i think one of the things that i find really bothersome to kind of go back to something that tony had to say a lot of people say oh america would be retreating from the world i would counter by saying we have to start reimagining the way the world really is go ahead. well the european colonial powers went through this process or world war 2 when independence struggles kicked them out of places it like africa and asia and at the time countries like you know even holland which we forget. it was once a massive empire but countries like france and england and so on how to reckon with the fact that they were no longer going to be empires and there was a lot of weeping and gnashing of teeth at the time and guess what they're all fine now they're able to dedicate resources to things like national health care that americans can't apparently afford because we're spending so much of our of our tax

dollars on war 54 percent of all federal spending goes either to current wars or to debt service on old wars and so it is a you know we're that's where our money is going it is a it's ridiculous to say that we can't get out as a colleague cartoonist of mine once said how would we get out of places like iraq we would go to the airport we would take planes we wouldn't eat that would be it. and that's so simple that i may go back to brian and a more serious note here brian i think that you know all of his here on this program agree that the sentiment to get these senseless wars echoing donald trump in 2016 why why doesn't it filter up what where where is the bottle neck what what what what what happens from the grassroots until you get into these think tanks that their entire existence is based on starting another war or go to war with iran i mean where is the bottle neck where does it flip go ahead right. there's

a there's a myth about american governance which is that it's a democracy that it is the rule of the people and that the elected representatives have constituents and their constituents are the people who elected them yes there are elections every 2 and 4 years in the united states but it's quite clear by any sober assessment or analysis of how the congress the house or the senate function that the real constituents of these elected officials who are constantly engaged in fund raising nonstop 247 every week every month of the year that their real constituents are wall street bankers they are the corporations those banks and those corporations are completely integrated into defense spending which is a massive form of government subsidy or welfare for the corporate establishment and so none of them dare really break ranks when they dare to break ranks occasionally and it's very rare they are then decimated look at tulsa gabbert i mean she's

a military war veteran she's been a member of the house for you know for 4 terms she's been completely demonized as a russian asset by hillary clinton but that's basically recognized around the political establishment here in washington and why because she said it's not a good idea to keep sending american military personnel into endless wars that for which there is no end and for which there is no obvious goal and there's no definition of what victory even means so tell us again what a war veteran a military veteran comes up and says this and she's 100 percent demonized every congress member understands the rules of the game if they have an antiwar sentiment or if they listen to their antiwar constituents and they are the majority peter it's not a big minority the majority of americans are sick and tired of endless wars but if the if the elected representatives listen to those people build they'll have their back turned by their real constituents who are their donors in. funders in

corporate america you know tony how is it playing out for 2020 because you know trump says a lot of things i mean a lot of things here but it seems to be very very incoherent because that you know the whole syrian withdrawal thing and i did a few programs on and i was so excited because i finally and this promise is being made and then in a matter of days and weeks it's all pushed back in a different direction and i found that to be a defeat because that could have been a demonstration effect start there and then finish the job in the middle east the middle east is a strategic backwater there is no reason for such a heavy american presence there whatsoever and the world is awash with or oil ok there's no reason to be there but that doesn't move the needle with the military does it go ahead tony right i mean i remember like i said barack obama was president for 8 years were heavily invested with the kurds in afghanistan but i think we are moving in the right direction i mean if lindsey graham or just bush

won this election in 2016 we'd be in a totally different place lord knows how much middle east intervention we have right now and i think that you know entering this new decade this is a completely different perspective the american people have for the 1st time and certainly in my lifetime and i think it's not going to be as fast as any of it sounds like all of us are in quite a bit of agreement wanted to be but it is happening and i think that that's definitely a good thing because that number 54 percent as someone like me who identifies as a fiscal conservative fiscal conservative and argue that we should spend 54 percent of our money on yeah it's ridiculous you know i'll give the last 30 seconds the end date here i want to talk about how the republicans have become the new neo cons and let you start knowledge you finish and when we come back go ahead. well sure i mean just to follow up

a little bit also i mean about this president's instincts clearly he's skeptical and remain skeptical of into an ism we saw that with the crisis with iran when he brought it in for a soft language landing after it really looked like we were at the precipice of war and that was very interesting i think to see from a republican president ok i'm going to jump in here gentlemen we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the foreign policy block stay with r.t. .

seem wrong. to me. to shape out. and engage. the trail. when some find themselves worlds apart going to look for common ground. welcome back to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind

you we're discussing the foreign policy blob. ok ted let me go back to you in dayton i mean one of the interesting things during the during the campaign 422-0161 very interesting phenomenon happened and you could see it through the wall street journal the washington post new york times etc. you saw many a well known renowned and i would say disgraced neo cons. entering the democratic ranks with open and open embrace the number of people that supported hillary clinton for example former acting cia director morello really good example right there and i think that that's one of the things that's really interesting that's come in 1st of all you have a very strong neo con presence in the democratic party and the republican party and you actually have this kind of schizophrenia reaction to foreign policy if trump

is for it you have to be against it even if it's in the national interest i mean everything starts getting twisted around where you just have to be against the guy no matter what which is absolute absolutely childish and at the end of the day very destructive go ahead ted well yeah i mean you know anybody who doubts that there's a foreign policy consensus between the 2 major parties only has to consider that wide variety of opinion on domestic matters whether it's identity politics or for human rights or the economy taxes and so on there's so many variations of opinion but even within the democratic party you know for example when general salome was assassinated by an american drone elizabeth warren of all people who self-styled progressive said that she was happy he was gone and kind of didn't didn't really take trump to task. her killing him as much as just feeling to get congressional approval under the war powers act there was just

a elizabeth warren who just came out her list of foreign policy advisers and bear in mind she really she and bernie sanders are the left of mainstream american political the 2 party system elizabeth warren is listed with foreign policy advisers though not really neo cons is all pro-war and interventionist there they've been fed in from these conservative democratic think tanks in washington like the center for american progress so you know there will never be anyone at the table in a war and it ministration who will say hey let's not get your yet willet brian and but that's the same thing with trump i mean this whole thing with john bolton floating around i guess that was on the white board just waiting to blow up and it will. go in the wind like all these other nonsensical things here but i mean he is really the kind of the epitome of i mean he would have worked fine in a little clinton administration donald it didn't matter because he had his own agenda and it was trump's fault to bring him into the fold in the 1st place i

remember when he announced it i mean you know you thought you could you've heard everything and then you just because he appeared on tucker carlson a few times and he becomes actual security advisor and trump pays heavily for that ok i mean this is an h. our problem here i mean i'm not agreeing with everything wrong with donald trump does with foreign policy but when he gets it right he gets it right and he should get support for it ok that's just a common sense of weighing of dealing with politics ever since 2016 all common sense has gone out the window go ahead brian. well you know let's look at the killing of money the iranian general who was coming to baghdad airport to engage in negotiations to deescalate tensions i mean that was trumps the situation john bolton was no longer in the in the administration i agree with you was a terrible mistake to bring in but try. for whatever reason impulsivity narcissism the fact that he could be could jolt in his his arm easily twisted

whatever he took responsibility for killing a soul or money that brought the united states to the brink of a major war perhaps the biggest war ever in the middle east a war more like vietnam than the war in iraq or libya and then donald trump said if when iraq when iraq's parliament said the americans must leave donald trump said well we're going to keep your your oil revenues which turns out to be in a bank account in the federal reserve bank in new york not in baghdad and it shows that washington even donald trump who i agree with you had an instinct to speak at least to that part of the population that is sick and tired of endless war has is also awash with a sort of a colonial mentality towards other people and other people in other regions and that fits in very well with the with the agenda of the military industrial complex as if america can area gate to itself the right to be the ruler over all people everywhere that's the recipe for endless war that has to stop you know tony i think

what is so mystifying for and i mean if you look at it in a commonsensical way i mean when we look at these foreign policy interventions adventures around the world particularly in the last 2 decades when has it ever worked and if you even ask that question you're laughed out of the room ok i mean it's been 75 years since the end of the 2nd world war the soviet union is gone the warsaw pact is gone almost 30 years now why is nato still in existence i mean again you get you get shoved out of the room you get you you get taken off of twitter and your facebook is taken down for asking questions when there's an in tire academic literature devoted to these things it's not as if i came up with it on my own but politically you're dead in the water pew saying go ahead tony. well i mean i think that you know it's it's like i said the tide has turned no and it is

changing and one of the things the president's done that he also deserves credit for is you know making these other european countries actually contribute an equal percentage of g.d.p. to nato and you know you can say you know that we don't need it but i mean at least these other countries are starting to participate evenly and i think why does that help is that. why is that a good thing. why is that a good thing because we spend 54 percent of our federal budget on the military and even china doesn't spend nearly that and i mean it's and they have you know more soldiers than we do so i mean i think it comes down to dollars and cents i mean it comes down to whether you're a well the school concert or a socialist we have to spend less money on the military well i tend to think we'll see how this plays out and i want ted to react to this the more that u.s. forces nato countries spend more money they're going to turn around and have a reassessment say well there really aren't so many threats out there maybe border

control i mean this is the obvious thing and maybe that's true trumps 5 dimensional chess ok i've heard that argument before ok but none that money nonetheless i mean a little bit of ted right now i mean quid pro quo we were saying it before the we started our program here i mean the trumpet ministration started muscling in on the europeans to to stick with the us went in to destroying the the iran nuclear deal and there was a quid pro quo that we would trump and ministration would raise car auto tariffs on european card cars that's called the quid pro quo ok it's done all of the time that's called state craft it's not you to be a big disagree with that and i think it's not right it's not moral but that's the way business is done here and so again you know it's very hypocritical for people to say what the foreign policy should be or what it should be because it's always being operated the same way and it's as an agreeing with tony it is being at the at

odds with what the average person things go ahead ted. well i think that you know we tend to look at a lot a lot of us tend to look at the u.s. foreign policy through through sort of a 19th century lens and what i mean by that is you know we think there are conflicts between countries they are resolved through wars and the winner prevails and takes away money land whatever and that's just not what us foreign policy is about now it's about disruption of the world the u.s. isn't trying to beat anyone or win take any territory or win any war is i mean think about invading iraq over oil make is nonsensical because you know you could live in you know you could live in mozambique and buy the same oil at the same price the u.s. doesn't get the oil at a discount or anything. if anything oil prices go up as a result what the u.s. is concerned about is emerging regional superpowers they're worried that

a country like iran which would naturally dominate the middle east or india which naturally would dominate south asia or brazil in south america china on the pacific rim that they're trying to mess with them and troll them and destroy and heart and harass their economy so they can't compete with the u.s. which has global dominance it's the only country in the world that has ever had global dominance of every shipping lane on earth and so the u.s. is an economic empire that spreads its influence through fear threat of new military disruption but not so much occupation or direct colonialism chinese have an opposite approach the chinese would buy in that's it that's very true brian let me go to you but i mean i can kind of an extension with i would i would disagree about the 19th century because the 1000 century like the napoleonic wars france lost but france was welcome into the community of nations ok i mean they what they did find ways of rebuilding the system here right now and now i'm agreeing with you

going to brian i mean a look. at the the whole sanctions regime the use of the dollar all of these things you know were part and parcel of the american domination but over using them and abusing them you're going to get exactly the opposite effect and that's what's happening with the u.s. dollar if the dollar is going to be a weapon people going to start moving away from it and that is counter productive to what people in washington want go ahead brian. indeed but it's such a cruel and eric form of warfare and it's really just emerged since the 1991 when the when the socialist bloc collapse so no one there was no alternative if you weren't integrated into the world economy dominated by the united states if you were in fact sanctioned you would starve i went to iraq peter over and over again in iraq i mean during the 1990 s. and i went from a hospital room to a hospital room to a hospital room and moms were holding their infants who were literally dying as i

spoke to them because they didn't have food or medicine they didn't have clean drinking water this was sanctions against a weak and powerless country that had been surrounded and hobbled and madeline albright said when asked is it worth it to kill 500000 baby she says that's a tough question but yeah we think the price is worth it sanctions are a killer they're a silent form of warfare that the powerful impose on the power lesser of the weaker america will never be sanctioned it can go to war in vietnam or iraq or afghanistan or libya commit all kinds of yugoslavia can commit all kinds of crimes it's never going to be sanctioned the sanctions are turning the world against the united states because the rest of the world unlike americans who don't know about this they realize that this is a killer policy that's aimed at the most vulnerable the poor the young and the 0 and the older parts of the population it's a cruel and barbaric form of of foreign policy you can't talk about american soft

power and then you saying this is your go question exactly broken for us of that we run out of time here and there's that interesting element of blowback let's not forget that ok many thanks to my guests in washington minneapolis and in dayton and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r.t. see you next time and remember. you know when i'm going to be out there seeing i don't think about it at all many grown men not near our bar. i kind of were on the. course of the now one think it's higher than are. members of the africa mafias conway's them safe and quick passage to europe but once they. leave they are enslaved the country util. will not some of them leave your

mom and i couldn't you know if this unit can get it out in a minute. from the cinquera. they sold the. lead. on court of the. because the persona but i can't even. be the normal. join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest in the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then.

when i was told something seemed wrong but old rules just don't call. me old yet to shape our disdain comes to educate and in games from an equals betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds of. we choose to look for common ground. your government and our government and all the other major governments of the world know what's going to happen and when it's going to. but they haven't told you and

they haven't told me they haven't announced. imagine something as big as the earth . is going to cause tidal waves earthquakes volcanoes erupt and it's going to chill . so very for a while right. my great grandfather's quote. nobody would care about the law or prison so you'd have wallace the should have. a terrible life between now and the. military justice you just fine nobody can.

help here. welcoming of us from around the world live from central london this is r.t. u.k. . u.k. prime minister boris johnson clashes with the opposition leader over coronavirus testing the heir to the british throne prince charles test positive for the virus are pricks spearing singh mild symptoms. president putin says russia has to go into lockdown with all but essential shops closed for a week as the country tackles cope with 90. founder julian assange is denied bail despite claiming his health is out risk from coronavirus all be.