here furtively surge your holiness you're really really welcome but don't be touching anything because it's not yours anymore you know and with 100 years removed i think we look back and say that the old unionist battle cry of home rule was room rule had a certain validity but that validity has gone and in the same way that northern ireland was created to have a protestant majority that has gone to we are a minority we are a country of minorities and it's not even a question in some unions quarters of why are we going to react to that it's a step back from that do you even realize that this is annoyed the case and then once we absorb that fact hi we're going to react to it and to my mind we react to by looking at it as an opportunity and truly embracing the diversity that we tried to celebrate of the belfast good friday agreement from 1900 so perhaps some of these initiatives put you seem to be trying to build a center of global and or politics between the s.-t. o.-p.

knows the unionist party to be a rival to the shouldn't be jew or pally. would you be more amenable now in the present circumstances than perhaps they were a few years ago i think perhaps and i judge that on the evidence of the surge for the alliance party the middle ground party last year in the european and the local government elections where they did incredibly well what i was trying to say back and back in 2017 was that you've had 10 years and i of the deep ancient fane running our coalition government of storm and castle. you don't need any more evidence that they can't get on that they can't cooperate that they cannot deliver for you so let's have an alternative and the alternative us to be not one party but one unionist party and one nationalist party so that was ourselves and the s.-t. o.-p. and when i looked at colm eastwood when he took over the s.e.l.p. i heard him saying what i was saying which was we need to make northern ireland work and when i started on and spoke to him it was the same measurements the

quality of the health service the education system the infrastructure and prosperity so i find a lot of common ground politically with calm and given the fact that we have this mandatory coalition that we're in to par sharing is the only way to go forward that was a proposition to put to the people maybe it was 2 years too early would you see one of the messages of the christian selection in terms of northern ireland and a lot math of the february election in the republic is that the people wanted more attention to manger nothing as would sales go on the bread and butter issues the health service nor now of the housing crisis in the republic what do you take from that if that was the message that the voters not from so we're delivering i would say from that that we're getting which are about our college politics we realize that the constitutional question is not the be all and end all i believe that what we should be doing is trying to make northern ireland work irrespective of whether

that is to make us more attractive to the rest of night or kingdom to stay in the u.k. or whether your ultimate destination. to get some sort of a united ireland if if we fix the health service the education system bring in the infrastructure which which will make our economy stronger that is more than a lifetime's political activity as far as i'm concerned so it's not for me it may not even be for my children might be for my grandchildren to make the call on the constitutional question but let's work on all that in the meantime and what i've never understood about sinn fein to lead the charge for united ireland is that they've always described northern ireland as a failed state that. well if we're going to have a united ireland the people of the republic after a vote for change. what is attractive about it saying to those people will you vote to adopt 1800000 really high maintenance people half of whom don't want to be members of a united ireland some of them might even get quite violent abroad. and who live in

a failed state. what school attracted to vote i want them as part of my country it's taken the republican 100 years to get comfortable in its own skin so why disrupt all out why turn all those tables over by adopting northern ireland under those circumstances from the vantage point of no moment the republican norm theocratic state a successful state no loose rather more attractive. so when i was growing up you knew you'd cross the border because the roads got worse and you were living in a state controlled by a church and these days the roads get better and you're going into a country that is much more progressive and you could argue than the northern ireland but i would add for our unease on a paradox irony number one the biggest obstacle to united ireland as i grew up was the ira because their bones and their bullets represented the coercion unionism would never give and are only through the organization probably doing most to

promote a united ireland today for the democratic unionist party their policies not only supporting bracks it but also their tone and their attitude or really bad for the long term future of the u.k. irony 3 the biggest break on ours unity is probably the irish political establishment for elephant a gale both know that nobody is ready and the 4th army is that after decades of unions looking over their shoulders thinking that irish nationalists with a enemy. it's not even scottish national center for english nationalism is the biggest threat to the future of the united kingdom and the paradox is unionists who who analyze abraxas referendum know food well that the lesson for a border pool in our shooty is. don't go to the polls until you've thought through the implications of change the nth degree and yet those same people will say to you don't debate and public don't talk about it because the more you talk about it the

more likely it is to happen that's fascinating stuff so where are we we're where for these for i base that in the big paradox there's no going to be a border of some sort of customs border in the irish sea we have the south leave you newsom in the medium term that leaves us feeling as as we often do friendless betrayed and totally on certain about our future nationalism is always a boat a process we're on the road to something unionism is always looking for a full and final settlement whether it was partition in the 1920 s. or the belfast good friday agreement in 1908 we're always in search of something that says here is stability and here is certainty going forward and bracks it was never going to deliver that it was always going to be exactly the opposite so i've never understood why any unionist who thought it through would support a bracks a referendum because quest start a few weeks ago when you co-sponsored the anti sectarianism report and you give the

analogy about eunice being. like a frog tell us tell us what you meant by that well it's a story i read awhile ago about a particular type of frog and the characteristic of the frog is if you put it in a pan of cold water and really really slowly bring the water up to boiling point. the frog dies because it doesn't realize that the environment around at this changing in a way that represents an existential threat and my concern is that unionism could be that frog the all certainties of go on the environment is changing the demographics are changing in northern ireland we're not a minority and the demographics who traditionally support the s.-t. o.-p. and shin fein are on their way to becoming a majority you've got scotland looking for independence you've got this rise of english nationalism. all these things are going against us and you've got the

d p who in my analysis are doing nothing to try and promote the union i think they're tactical but they're not strategic think about the confidence and supply when when that chance result in the general election left them holding the balance of power they ask for a 1000000000 or a 1000000000 and a half points short term brilliant that's money into our economy into our public services but long term what's the damage with english nationalists because they look at that and they say 26 years after your cease for us why are you a special case anymore why do you need money for your hospitals when we need money and that 1000000000 and a half you know that's a cute hospitals that's poppies on the beat in england that's classroom assistants that's boris johnson language slogan the logic of your analogy with a fraud. the unions some of the thinking about it given the me jump. should be cutting a deal no it isn't universal menahem now are never going to be in

a stronger position to say it taught at least debate with the republic the this moment as opposed to waiting on another 20 years when unison is going to be a much smaller natural what if political change is coming we've gone way beyond the binary of the status quo of staying in the u.k. as is or that traditional sense of creating a 32 kind to unitary state there are all sorts of other possibilities as to wreck rulers joint authority there is one country 2 systems not popular given that the hong kong model these days right through the reporting is probably 6 or 7 options i'm not advocating for anything but making northern ireland work. but people need to realize that there's not a binary anymore in the same way that the population of the country isn't a binary we're not all either protestants or catholics eunice or nationalist there's a big group called other very own poor tick term for them but it is the others who

will decide our future constitution and what would you say to members of the unionist community what are you really imagine serve a single economic entity in ireland the violent or to members of the nationals community who might be concerned about the disappearance of the european community or union overview of the belfast agreement can both communities simultaneously be fearful of the future than 1000 $908.00 agreement said that we self define our identity we can be british we can be we can be both we can be whatever and there's no hierarchy anymore being british isn't more important or better than be an irish . what a lot of nationalists but some unionist as well thing happened and that referendum was an english nationalist came in over there and did exactly what the agreement said could never happen and tonight in their sense of european us so there's an all

still poor from from the last century john hewitt who refused to define himself in a binary term he said i'm an austrian but i'm also a rush british and european and he went on to say what was important he said if you deny any part of that you diminish who i am and that's what a lot of people felt after the press that referendum people from northern ireland who wanted to remain part of the e.u. and feel european they felt at the internet had them in the way the agreement said could never happen and they felt diminished so we're talking about people who if you went to them in your 1st question was would you like to see a night out and some day they would say yes but that's an aspiration. if your 2nd question was would you join us to be an activist they would have said no i'm too busy too busy earning good money having my children well educated just enjoying life to people that which flag flies for store. but after the 24th of june 26th the

answer the 2nd question is where do i sign up my next button the subject of party of steve i brought along a quick no there's only one stipulation here this whiskey obviously the queen has to be scotch the other side the stuff not for saw a lot of thing else oh that's so big challenge for you sir x. thank you i'm going to know your friends nationalism unionist thank you very much indeed beautiful beautiful yes black bush you look very well and. might nesbit represent strong for the north by this assembly but the worst parliamentarian for the same can state and see as jim sherman joins us after the break to find though a very different view of the future of unionism. no

one i mean maybe they're seeing on their. own many grown men not me and our power. i kind of were on their. back and i think now i think it's higher than i. have to come i feel. safe and quick passage to europe but once they. leave the country. will not some of them leave your mom and i couldn't you know if this unit were going to go to him in. the. court of the united.

states seemed wrong. just don't call. me. to shape out just days after. an engagement because betrayal. when so many find themselves worlds apart we choose to look for common ground. welcome back i continue our conversation on the future of unionism in northern ireland with jim shonen the member of parliament for strong. shalem welcome back to the early simon show very pleased to be here in belfast as well wow you come to the us it. used to be interviewing me in the green mojo you know i was

a look at the house of commons but lots of course is appropriate because the assembly is back and running and storm and yeah how important a development do you really let us i think it's crucial i think it's critical i think the election before christmas told us just like cutting up one's whole quota that's not the next and and listen to her majorities and and my kids and force me off to all their colleagues and i think that's an indication i knew a week into the election that we were we were the sort i was different i said that the likes and even michelle michael paine and the workers and comforters isis guys as isis different likes and the people who are her noida descent may not work and their noise about the health service they're not about education about rules so you as a west most member of parliament you find yourself campaigning just before christmas in the west most that election people so you were not going to vote for your german

because that assembly should be up and running i think some people decided they were going to vote for us but there are others who told us they weren't happy either and i knew they were giving us our vote this time round. and we thank them for that at the end that they they were saying look get there someday work and get the health minister pike get the health department back do it at the school a longer i think people were sent by the sun because packer direct rule comes and one thing was clear and hard to come to the impasse that we hada northern ireland we reflected on the new move very quickly yeah one foresaw held by the north side of 3 who seem to believe that the neighboring rule in doing that and then got the sack for these payments yeah. personally my i had some fairly strong comments with. smith the new south i also recognize. hard work and when the effort put on he certainly had

a measure used very very carefully the measure of the political parties the measure of the of the irish republican as well and their ministers and to show off i think he would been better in my opinion if he had a stayed to oversee the political process the next 2 years ago some direction for 2 years so between now and the end i think it's important that we had someone who the parties had did not always agreed with but probably they respect that. personally i think of a better if he stayed but he's moved on the reasons for that are better known to the prime minister and probably to him. would be dominic cummings lose the i'm so nice pulling the strings here i think the new surgeon instead of still a capable guy very boy they boris johnson we'll see how it goes but he needs to hold out working relationship with the parties i think to inspect. i hope that they present suggested as a c.m.

working relationship on the sample they're standing with all of the agreement to let us be a little if we're going to agree but it's not entirely perfect it's not a perfect for all so we're not happy with everyone but it's just better to get back to work that's almost a it's better to have a hold on a credible minister for education a cut a moment for health i mean i said earlier on there's been written between 808-0000 people waiting for appointments for assessments for operation of a population of one point yet 1000000 828-0000 people waiting for appointments and assessments and so on just to some work the fact that matter is that the health service could not have went on much longer without was it's good to have a minister of places a comfortable but you know experience politically and i've observed many members of parliament from my own but westminster over the years and you probably move them every other single. noted for pursuing what's called the bread and butter there's a poet this was your health and education should be unusual more. often because

when december was up and running with assembly we're dealing with that and the constitutional issue oversee a lot of the troubles the violence the model loomed large and question of who you are and i'm just interested in your experience is that the demand from the public can more now and to get this family back up and running was of the man to address issues like the health. i think anyone he was the campaign until before christmas and at westminster elections. from everyone and i got it i got it regularly i respond to what the people tell me and i try to keep in touch with the grassroots was always will alex for bread and butter issues that was me that very beginning when i 1st went to come to 1905 the bread and butter issues were always me i don't get the interaction with people and i got that the opportunity a day for a little dialogue i got the opportunity at the assembly and i have the opportunity at westminster so what party spokesperson for health party spokesperson

a human rights party spokes person on the quality issues and also on d.w. paid a part in the works and pensions so they keep you really in touch with your people and you must aleut. the republican election you know in february you must look to that and thought wow it's quite interesting that seems to be these sort of issues which are really expected dominating that campaign were hosting in particular america was an enormous issue which to me we set the pace of the yeah i started to regard and doesn't deal with the political parties but one political party and i just happened to be sure and feel resonated with the populace and they were probably for observation to look at other from that satan and assume to me that you know you could talk that perhaps that as much as you want and something as you after say that and my own actions back in december. most people were not talking about breakfast they were talking to me about those bread and butter issues they were talking about the state of the union and those are the critical issues so

whenever i looked at the at that they are likes in the republic of ireland i can understand exactly what happened the big parties said they were going to address how you can set up an address homelessness the city can address the health issues well people believe that they hardened and they look for someone new that could do the hard. and got a substantial vote but the democratic unionist party moved from our position because of the christmas election from one of the normal sinful is that we're supposed to effectively holding the fate of the government in the palm of your hand to one of us are totally majority of ity and boris johnson is putting the customs border in the eye of the sea and he's not a suspect going to be convinced by the u.p.a. a piece to change his mind. i think we're living in a new word here. and there's a new king there and he's got a massive majority we don't have the influence we had prior to their likes and he's

going to need to keep it short he can basically do what he want to set the steam far they pay for north time when he moved and i am saddened by the pain in the 1st for the 1st david $43.00 votes and they covered the majority of it in 92 and 96 i said stephen see that tonight also we're going to be flying over the next 5 years he may get used to it we're not in have any fun friends and here upon them they will pursue their party policies they are what they want to see change and so i think we have to. observe. that we told tom the influence anymore and we accept art and we're 2 people to it as well we're too young peacetime from our town don't see it and we have to also accept a political reality of art doesn't mean that we can have and fears i think maybe we are and i for i was 16 we saw war before the election. we've been treated and released into the border during the r.t.c. and but to be quite a tame to to. get over that in

a way our learn to live with it perhaps is a better way to put it. and i think maybe i'm on my people my constituents were very sore about it as well. described boris johnson as the guy who picture all station dog for a walk. i think is or it was not you know i didn't feel alright for a long time you know you know but we are building those relationships and i we are but. they are to contain the m.p.'s to come and speak to us assumes that we've got a soreness that we probably experience and that they knew we were that they're now looking to see what they can do to make it better what they can do to work alongside us and i think maybe from that point of view alex i think we've got some some possibilities i always look for the best in people and that's my nature. and i think maybe with a nice hip majority the maybe we were gracious we've got more vitamin yes and we've got more understanding because we can afford to pay well i would say that maybe but

also a lot but i live in the hope that the party and they can service and protect her i remind them regularly that they are the conservative and unionist party and i try to remember what it means to be unionist it's not just a paper thing with us it's a star life and we want to be you know in the larry king live good print in the northern and southern ontario equal part or not. and foresee profit this one time i don't believe we are. so let's talk about the 610 new of ireland effectively being america nomic entity which is going to be different in some ways from. the u.k. as an economic entity what are the implications of what do you look at who really couldn't do your starting for. a crystal ball of what's going to help move so you see 10 years as well to the. i think the one thing that we perhaps may be hard some

influence on and not see the north not to sound like the north to something and then france and what direction it takes but again we don't have a majority you know still have a majority in the north and south many more it will topple the tory at westminster either you know the m.p.'s who are like that not from those who are at hand so things have changed mathematically there is a demographic change. population and those who are you know still see themselves as nationalist i think we got a reminder that not every person who votes niceness is necessary and i stress civil scotland if you don't mind me saying. i think the unionism sales should be reassured but not that we. up attacked for our border pool go up a tight for puerto pull giving any sort of a change whatsoever. i think but its government are quite clear they don't want to see the border pulling and i think now we have the republic of ireland who you

don't want to see the border poor either. because the smile when you get west brom's to the boat where it could be about the referendum in scotland who knew as i know it will for a good flurry be agreeable there was provision in feeley for a 73 we've requested lord i will have you ever thought i should just get up and spray cousteau's gardens but telling them so for you probably doesn't know look i'm one who believes in the union my people believe in it's a most important as she what's more important bracks it over the last election for my people and of the installations that i did through my organs called types and generally the big issue for them was the union all the political parties were told very clearly what they want that assembly pack and working health trast education advanced rules of trast all the credibility hard ministers and. what if they can they can ask for a change. i believe i reflect that opinion not a participator but they want to work in

a sound way that i called out that's what to make sure that happens and the numbers for the next 2 years like it's very important to take a trip shallop like you very much my pleasure you're always good to see you are the one here to hold the pleasure was a pleasure as we have seen today that is new thinking underway in north america she has some but certainly as yet no agreed forward some believe that even post bricks at the line can be held on cross community support for the union but others argue that this is the time to negotiate a new settlement before demographics move it edema plea in favor of unite his arm and next week we turn to the national politicians and community campaigners and ask what conversations are being held to reconcile all of northern ireland to a time of likely politically ascendancy of the nationalist community but for now from alex itself and all the team is good bye and we hope to see you will then.

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death row. welcoming our viewers from around the world live from central london this is on to u.k. . in the u.k. as health service is under pressure despite clowns for a brand new hospital and an o. me of volunteers as reports emerged of abuse being directed and h.s. workers. hotel 'd chain trouble large host families with just hours to spare blaming government advice over the coronavirus crisis i'll be talking to a london councillor. the u.k. stands isolated as the prime minister refuses the e.u.'s offer to bolt white key equipment like ventilators to get reaction from my europe correspondent.