oh and welcome to the artie interview one peter lobo donald trump's deal of the century has been put forward what does it say about the middle east geopolitics in even metaphysics i'm a game joined by author of croaky is a former british and diplomat founder and director of complex form alister welcome back to moscow where we meet we talk about the middle east you know when donald trump and his administration put forward their deal of the century for what we thought was going to be the the israeli palestinian conflict to be resolved actually is something much much more comprehensive and i've read dozens and dozens of articles about it they all pretty much say the same thing but your article

recent article israel in the middle east a civilizational and metaphysical war on this is so think very different in looking at the deal this century what your thesis in this article is simply the fact to recognize that israel or zionism is more like any normal nationalism it's not like nationalism of russian nationalism or other nationalism precisely because it was given this was dictated by gold and it was. a civilization rolen metaphysical. came to the roman empire it came to the room and then and even the secular leaders of it like being gorean who was very sick all saw not just as a nationalist project but the redemption of the human race as what he described i mean not the jewish people but the human race as a whole and it's. in and it tells the jews exactly what

will be them that it will other states will submit to them they will provide their wealth honey milk will be coming to them and they will rule over this and in a sense this is what we're talking about it is the judeo christian civilizational project for the middle east it always always was that and now it is be actualized and the american ambassador friedman was very clear in the soft of the meetings in the east room of the white house he said listen you know this is the bible being actualized i mean living in the old testament holiness and then it only the old testament of the jewish bible the old testament and so this is what is coming and really the deal of the century was the sort of laying the foundations 1st of all for the palestinians to give tribute to those in the us

tax today like pax romana you know the the province's the pa provinces of pax romana like spain became and gave their fealty. to rome and essentially it's providing that for the palestinians to come in on a subordinate status than a knowledge the new civilizational paradigm in the region that stage one then we move to later stages where it's going to extend jordan probably other states are expected to submit to new most of the arab states have already whole way john will get out of that one that we took for maybe an american viewers here this sounds like a form of manifest destiny with an element of mystery on it to it yes well that's true i mean one in one in 4 americans say the evangelicals and even jericho's take the old testament very. literally and they see that and they see cvs

us as leading to the return of the redeemer and rapture rapture says what we're talking about so any move towards actualize. prophecies about the future at the destiny and this is what many are who if you listen to his speech he said thank you mr president for enabling us to fulfill our destiny and what's the destiny if. it's what they said empire a jew or if there is not every person only but they are going to determine the destiny of so many other people in the region i mean it's really interesting is that it seems in many ways israel is kind of replicating very much the mindset that the u.s. but the u.s. has it on a global. in a global way but the israelis are looking at it in a regional and that's what i think so many american policymakers and even jellicoe can readily understand it because it's something that the u.s.

does except for on a global scale yes actually it meshes very closely because the american. elite have always seen themselves as a civilizational project you see that famous columnist in the new york times tom friedman who sort of used to say you know you measure our success not by troops in the ground but kentucky fried chicken mcdonald's in hollywood it was or was a like a cultural project too and a few some years ago nato met leaders of the nato forces came together and made to leave this said look. our empire will fail if the world does not accept of vision as their vision for the future we can't sustain the hedge of money the empire without that vision and so what to do we have if this munich security conference pompei was said listen american values american ideals will prevail

and that of course was influenced during my eye what happened in the cold war you believe it will and that will it will succeed because it we have the force to make it we have sanctions we have trade we have the dollar we have the military ok i mean this is a it sounds like a virtuous view of the world but it's very dystopian when you think about how it will be made into reality and i think in this is the disenchantment so much of the world has with the neo liberal order of course because what it's done has been to impoverish breakup destruct those states in order to prepare the way for this i mean look at the huge pressures that are being put on not only jordan but on lebanon on iraq on iran all of them part of a process to make agreed to terms and to agree to this project i mean it's

it's it's a project it's an. empire project it's only in phase one but these of the subsequent faces and that people are feeling this precious and i think it's having a huge impact on the middle east because i've just been back to visiting a number of states and europe everyone has depended on what they call holding the middle of the stick. only those no middle of the stick left because he. trump has polarized it into what little ground has gone let's talk about trying because the i've been asked this so many times that trump under the trumpet ministration essentially is recognizing the annexation of the west bank up to the jordan river the goal on. the us is recognized the moving of the embassy to jerusalem trying to up my thesis is this true doesn't because there's no downside for him politically to do it for him. you know as

a politician and as someone who's running for reelection because he doesn't see any downside in his base likes it so it's a cost free in his mind if i think what real experts on the middle east see how costly these kind of decisions are particularly since united states has no right to give away something is the its own in the 1st place i don't think i think it's. simpler the. trump has to do is because of course people will say to you you know the evangelicals one in 4 americans will no vote democrat maybe true but the question is will they sit on their hands and not go out and vote enough would change the electoral i mean you know trump is not going to win a popular vote he has to win it through the electoral college so it really matters to him and he has been vulnerable and he's vulnerable he was vulnerable during that senate vote on the impeachment because

a number of the right wing new. senators already to say look you know we'd be happy to go with pence because he's a soldier he saluted him he will do what he's told you know so many people underestimate that and if you look at the american cable t.v. it is never never mentioned but the bipartisan military industrial complex slash in interventionist slash. global hegemony and your money project is is very very front and center for these people and i don't think it was even very subtle is that this has this project has to continue so this is what he did i mean he gave them everything the evangelicals and ever being just i mean he did it before the the election in the senate or on the day of the senate election but obviously the been a number of standing about this so everything evangelicals. and the deep state to

dos for now on israel was given if i watched that press conference when the deal this century was rolled out 1st of all there was no palestinian on the stage and there wasn't even. a modicum of any kind of suggestion of negotiations take it or leave it but essentially doesn't the deal of the century. codified a 11 state solution of course one of the one of the implications of a 11 them pasta yes no with well you can have such a maze existing just as the roman empire was in it provided are really there in providing they accept the authority except acknowledge the authority of rome own knowledge the oath or the central authority you have a moment of latitude. depends how much but that was how the roman empire what and that would be the same thing but then our sleep flies in the face of these

rules based order that the u.s. and its allies particularly in europe were pushing all the time it's it's it's contradictory well no not really i mean the rules based empire i mean but you know don't forget this meshes very closely as i say with a sense of you know what happened in the end of the cold war when all america's values. we legitimize i mean not you know it was hollywood it was the wall street it was all of these values they had destroyed not the usa i thought but communism socialists and the left were completely destroyed. the actualized variation of israel what do you know almost give a comparative if this happened and iran was defeated in the us it would almost like

produce about iran. a little bit later when all in not only that but it will be it will be another validation and as i say and as i said nato spoke some years ago and said you know we can all survive how do we maintain how do we keep an empire i think people underestimate the importance of this cultural civilization even if you look at what the pentagon has been saying recently about china they've been not talking about the trade will but the civilized nations will fret of china that we will start thinking the chinese way economics. is the way to sell this new cold war with china even with russia i mean it when you when you base it on values and not on military strength for example yes i mean this is what this is what they're using for their domestic audience and it's obviously quite effective. and people respond to this how you win that civilizational war is is

a different but i think that's precisely will compare meant when he. our ideals will prevail hold the veil hold ok after a short break we'll continue our discussion on the middle east stay with us. it is now a time in america for this sort of class the workers who are making minimum wage they can't survive they have to have 2 or 3 minimum wage jobs they're rising up they're going on strike at sal one of the fallouts the common $1000.00 play won't be much higher wages long for. your government and our government and all the other major governments of the world know what's going to them when it's going to. but they haven't told you and they

haven't told me they haven't announced. imagine something as big as the earth. is going to cause tidal waves earthquakes volcanoes erupt and it's going to chill. so very for a while right. my great grandfather's. nobody would care about the law or prison so you'd have wallace should have. a terrible life between now and. welcome back to the r.t. interview i'm mind you were discussing the middle east i was through in the 1st part of the program you're talking about this idea of. israel's messianic view for empire in the region as a reflection of how america looks at the world. but one thing kind of in

bedded in this him prior vision is that somehow. particularly sunni muslims in the middle east will have to accept zionism will they do that no i don't think in coercion they don't have to accept zionism but that would be accepting the zionist project but they have to accept the authority of zionism of the if you like the. project. just as i said you know people have to spain and everyone had to accept all 40 of. even if they did their own thing to a certain extent they have to but it really has some ways were almost i mean it needs to be sort of consolidated but most of the arab states me some of the gulf states who are already you know. the head you me like of this vision of the civilization

they get out of it. what do they get out of it is that they hope they're going to get business and they going to have a front door to washington and be accepted. but the great difficulty in this whole project is that in order to bring it into being it's been framed in really binary terms either you know the palestinians either you do it or you're finished and the same for lebanon the same. jordan all are being put in this binary position and the middle ground has been erased completely and gone. and these pressures are increasing and this is where it may not work because in the sense the whole of the middle east needs to hold 'd. by the middle and once you take all of that away then and make it so polarized and put the pressures on which are taking place right across iraq iran syria then what is the choice they can only

escalate back against the united states doesn't this. is going to interact with it actually very directly empower iran because iran is the alternative. this is iran is if you call it a victor is the only victor from the deal as i was reading. always wins by almost doing nothing at all it is react it watches everybody else in the region screw everything up over and over and over again no learning curve and is a result the guy in this. ends up being the winner it happens it's particularly in this century that's what that's a pattern that's what's happening in equally what's happening is the old traditional weapon is coming out which is sectarianism from the gulf states who are demonizing iran on social media in iraq and in syria and everywhere else in order to try to keep that position but. it's putting huge pressure not only on those

states in the both but also gulf states because the gulf states hold the middle of the stick and that's what they've done or was and if they don't cotton to that and specially now when the price of oil is going down and may go down further depending on what happens in china but at 40 dollars 45 dollars a barrel which it may be if china doesn't get back to work very soon i mean the gulf states are really going to be there already in recession dubai abu dhabi and others i mean the pressures are intense some of them may collapse from it but others may have no choice but to escalate the binary process forces as skule should so i expect later to see or an april sometime around that we'll see quite a big scale ation of tensions between iran and the role of some syria iran and also because now there is a project to remove america from the region that's what i was getting in read my

mind exactly i mean is the is that is the deal of the century a way to cement forever american presence in the middle east. it's meant to cement israel's position bad by the unite as as the carrier of what americans now call themselves today of christianity i mean it's not just the old testament not just the break tradition but it's now carries the christian called notation the hyphen to it into the middle east but i don't know i think that it may end up paradoxically by the americans losing their footprint and losing their position in the middle east i think it's just my own personal belief but i think america will not be in iraq in any meaningful way by the end of the this year nor in syria in any meaningful way i don't think it's going to be sustained. the pressures are

already beginning from afghanistan right through. this region to tax it hasn't started yet because the iraq has a still talking to the americans and the americans seem ready to at least leave in part from iraq so without leave israel is virtually the sole sarah get proxy for the united states in the middle east is this part of the deal of the century if the u.s. footprint does shrink it will have its proxy i guess you could throw in the saudis as well where you would have that that that axis right there the tell of the axis with it would that be play it presumes that you actually undermined a weakened or destroyed a look principle opposition to this project and that's what's going on well in a sense you know we've all heard the term arab street real or imagined but we're talking about decisions being made and that's always the case in the middle east

but there's a there is discontent we have a lot. of social unrest all across the region across world. primarily economic and it's a great deal of time it's due to poor governance and there's a certain point where people do look it's going on in lebanon. a very volatile place. well at some point you have to realize you know the civil society the lower levels of society because we're always looking at these decision makers what is the sense of you my years down to my son's. off to having just been and everybody says the reform is necessary everyone agrees that corruption must be finished and no one thinks it's going to happen or is even ready possible because it's always brought. in the middle east if one person wants to move talk about it

this way. then there is someone whose interests are affected that way and i don't think all of these states it's going to be easy to have reform i don't think reform i don't think they can reform themselves as things stand so i expect these protests will get worse and increase particularly easy economic situation of the middle east is israeli much of europe is already in something of a recession. and its parts of the middle east are in deep recession and this is going to have big popular. populist if you like impact and i'm not sure all that all of these states will survive the spirit because they contra form i don't think we will see. that because you know in lebanon the sectarian interest in. there is differences the gulf interests and all sorts of different interests

and none of them really capable the elites in the middle east i don't think any of them are really capable of making the reform look at the gulf states they say they need reform to i don't see that we're going to see there's that level of inertia that you do have these states here that spend lavishly on arms and we all know why didn't they keep their own populations in our control it's not our national defense i want to go back to the palestinian question here because you know it's we've all long known i mean from slow to the present is that israel has a choice as a democracy or a design a street regime in which palestinians are 2nd class citizen and i'll use the. word there for both word essentially apartheid i mean that is something that they're willing to live with because they get some they're shielded by the united states

around the. world and its allies i mean again you know when i look at that stage when the deal of the century was rolled out and i wasn't the only one that noticed that there was no one there and this is the origins of this trying to resolve this this conflict and they're just wishing the conflict away as if it doesn't exist and actually in a sense the that the palestinians don't know they're just taking off all the alternative all. taking and as i say the stage so that there's a what cold real choices are a choice and only 2 choices if you are available and this is why i think you know i listened to the palestinian and the original response and they said well let's have a new architecture we'll have you know the quartet revived and then. move through saying well we'll include north africa or in the hole about for occur and the germans and you and we would have

a big conference. don't they understand this is precisely what trump's policy is to dismantle a architecture they say we're going to build a new architecture he has spent the last 3 years dismantling the architecture so the palestinians have this choice or nothing and this is the whole point the same offer is being given to lebanon you know either you do what you your told you cut your links with his ball or you accept the israeli borders maritime and learn oh you almost financial system will collapse same for iraq the same iran the same and so this binary thing is not a chance for the arab states to sort of provide a new architecture revive the quartet and start negotiations with. israel then are invited to negotiate they're invited to think about what's being put on the table the whole point is us is to take away the middle zone but if it fails then it

catastrophic we failed because if you have a middle ground some kind of negotiation everybody has wiggle room everybody has options this is so brittle it breaks it's going to really break so that's why i'm saying the only ultimately i mean at the moment they're not there you know the arab states are talking about new architecture and going back to the 2 state solution and putting the arab proposal back from 2001 on the tape but you know as i say the whole of the trauma team's policy has been troll move all of that middle ground all of the liberal middle as i call it gone and to give you that choice but implies there will be escalation some people will fold because there is no alternative some states may fold but others have no choice but to escalate so it does prepares whom and it could lead finally to something much broader. titling this program middle east dystopia questionmark twenty's. seconds is that

a good title for this program yes it is a good title and it is also know we all moving into something that is going to be very tumultuous very. and it could end up in a much wider conflict while always happy when you come to moscow but not always happy when you. think you know i want i very much appreciate you joining us here on the r.t. interview it's time time for new year anyway. a

little bit of let me. ask i would then we'll. pick i could. not trouble. to show more than. you love clues. tend to make good to see because don't want to cause them to want to have the kook on the scene do it in the out now as you. know most of the difficult to. the new of those 2 moons. much of this news tonight in 92 from the. 2 would you hire tried to use in to do.

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within 4 green walls. using. help him to leave difference room. and this is a boom bust the one business show you can't afford to miss for in washington coming up the coronavirus has now taken hold around the world but to varying degrees we take a look at the globe and check in on the numbers as they stand now plus markets have seen one of the worst quarters in history of the outbreak in fact trading and has stalled international growth and things are looking any better at the start of q 2 we bring you expert analysis on the issue. would be a lion share of focus and at the pay.