hello and welcome to cross where all things are considered i'm peter all about how has the pope in 1000 pandemic changed the international system now have u.s. trainer relations been altered and is the west experiencing buyer's remorse over globalization.

to discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest read like unship in prague he's an american journalist in the czech republic where he's been covering the pope in 1000 pandemic in europe along with china's response previously he's worked as a journalist for telesur and a contributor and message are new and in new zealand we cross to james bradley he is the new york times number one bestselling author of the china mirage as well as host of his own pod cast untold pacific hi gentlemen crossed out rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i always appreciated this talk about the u.s. china relationship during this pandemic and most importantly after it james let me go to you know we we here with donald trump with his threatening words there will be consequences of course that is undefined to this point here and i can understand the traumatization that people are feeling in the united states i would say it was a lack of preparedness and just the nature of the medical system in. united states

that one has to look out but on the international stage threatening words are being made so what do you think instead of trying to root figure out what donald trump has in his mind which is almost impossible to figure out what do you think people. in beijing what do you think the chinese are thinking about these words. maybe that the americans are crazy i mean russia hacked the election and now china's poison in america and. america needs reparations is what i'm seeing on the american media i mean i'm in new zealand i'm halfway between east and west have family in asia family and in the west and i was calling in early february back into the united states telling them what asia was saying and they would listen people got angry with me they were like the american media was a like 45 days behind asia i have friends in saigon in taipei you who are not locked down they're going to work you know they haven't missed my daughter in

taipei hasn't missed any time so this blaming china reparations you know maybe we could start at the beginning you know there's 3000000 dead people in southeast asia because of us flying off aircraft carriers in the south china sea and by i mean vietnam we could start with reparations there one 3rd of laos has so many american bombs on it they can even use it i mean let's get real and let's work together as a world here. yeah well that would be great and that would be the most important takeaway from this pandemic is to work together but what we've seen is just the opposite we've seen it's every man for himself and that's very disquieting brad let me come to you. as part of my profession i have watched a lot of american cable news and look at the manger broadsheets and number one their knowledge of china is very very poor this gives me an opportunity to plug james his book here which is very very good of the china mirage but you know it

seems to me that again you know there's a great deal of buyer's remorse of her globe the globalization of the last 40 years because it was supposed to be china was supposed to become like the united states that's what's another mirage all right but china globalization and unashamedly it was china 1st because they were a sovereign nation and they and they pursued their national interests here and now just because they have a large trading relationship with the united states why should they compromise their sovereignty because they don't go ahead brah. i think best definitely true but i think we have to like qualify whether. it's china 1st so 1st i want to say that i think it's definitely true that the westerners we have a problem 1st mentality certainly like to have capitalist economy that is their

state which propagates capital and capitalists are able to profit from the system that if the state that the state exists to protect capital capital does this thing and whatever social utility comes out of that that certainly is the best with the fact. this i think it works perfectly as designed they fall short term profit that's exactly what they wanted that's exactly what's happening. but the relationship that china has especially with the people with the economy that it has the markets the time they have a different relationship and a different social contract with their people and of course it's not driven by this the profit 1st mentality that have likened the communist party to china as a credible political wilson best and sustainable human development to the public infrastructure. and so the relationship with china projects whereas the u.s. has won the courting capital and draining resources from the peripheral nations

back to the sec the united states what people call here was a united as their relationship to china has of the world it's it's located really different from it in that the people cooperation just so happens that this is usually to the benefit of a nation that then i'll give you one example people like to say that time is also engaging in imperialism by investing in other countries. i think you could say to some extent for example when i was in south america you could. yeah but for example what a bummer i'll let you know they were trying. maybe and i think they're great. for 5 or. 7 or whatever for that. they broke it up the company will give you one for. you know people compared with the one for. air quality. in fact of life

fairly i have a. better relationship than think they would rather go with it if it's a very good example because that is and that is an economic trade interest it's not necessarily a geo political one and that's a great deal of american trade is geopolitically driven ok but as quantitatively different you know james one of the things i find very methodically over the last few months is that the american people have rediscovered been told that it's a communist country and conjuring up the cold war again as it is as an enemy but you know most of the pundits on t.v. are stupid and they don't know much about history whatsoever and they even know less about china but during the cold war the west had very little if very very little trading trade with the soviet union and now you have found a legally different reality where we found out how interdependent or even dependent in one direction when it comes to like pharmaceuticals that the united states is

dependent so i think you see them with this kind of. very hardcore rhetoric on one side but the reality is that we're hooked into hippie of deal like it or not or if you don't like it the costs are prohibitively high and no one's really thinking that out at least in the media go ahead james. well i thought it out how to get to the bottom of this you know globalization crime now that we're. you know surveilling americans we can go into their homes and we could look like behind their t.v.'s that says made in china we could look at all of the products that they've gotten and we could trace that back to where they got it we could go right to wal-mart you know talk to the walton family about this globalization i mean i'm joking but we've benefited tremendously it's been a great partnership and it's i mean my book is called the china mirage and there's a mirage america went into this as we always do with china over hundreds of years

you know we'll just get involved with china will send our missionaries whether they're religious or whether they're capitalists and china's going to work with us and then they'll become more like us they'll get rid of that emperor or they'll get rid of that communist party and then all chinese you know want to grow up and be a little democrats like us and then now you see in the press we tried we would put china in they didn't become more like us well. you know china is going to be china us is going to be us but we can reach across the pacific in a different way than we are now. you know rabidity it all started out with the missionaries and i still think that that messianic mission is still there and western leaders are so disappointed that they don't they don't bend in to bend history in our direction and i'm often told by the chinese themselves is that it's

not the emergence of china it's the return of china and its rightful place in the international order and that is something washington elites just cannot comprehend go ahead brad. great american. earth time thing. to america that is the demise of the world view and i think you really see that that hard break among americans when they're saying this time is emerging now from this they're sending a europe or i mean the czech republic right now we're about to probably soon but i think the government's going to have a press conference right now and announce that we're going to have. some measures lifted and get back to normal life and this is the small part to air bridge that we were able to set up here talking to them 815-0000. rapid test. i think they sent all about 122000000 dollars worth of which were the major ports

some that was donated from different people some of the most of it was purchased because the 100 branches might be been here brad if i could jump in here that's a trojan horse that would that's what we're told in western media drew ginn the horse ok. ok time we not true. but for mike they think it's a trojan horse but as i said most of it's so good and within kind of strings attached and if there's any kind of like. the failure thing there would be you could say times companies are trying to profit by raising. those discovered capitalism that people profit off plates. the thing is that you know i don't see that. as a trojan horse for your politics it's like really the same project for spike you know the chinese are going this is europe now i don't think it's interested in separate things that china is that cooperation it's beneficial right the americans

and they help build the result europe out of the 2nd world war with marginally better stuff. they obviously had your political interests there and i think that there was so much pressure in the core because all world works the now from the fire. seems like people are saying that this is the same kind of thing as like the marshall a political interest and helping make it actually like a qualitatively different thing to say that the countries are different societies are different the people are different totally different they are siding with the different different character or afterwards they have to. go to jail to james that is a red brings up such a good point because it really it really hurts me i'm the one american pride particularly american pride when and when you when you look at you know leads in europe you know nato countries except being made from from china because brussels either dropped the ball in the beginning of all this or became indifferent or

didn't have the resources to help one of their e.u. member countries or a nato country that really heard a lot of pride in washington that 20 seconds before we go to the break go ahead. you know there is a lot of pride in washington and we're not looking east and there's something to learn from the east as i say my my friends in in taipei are walking around freely no work or has gone they didn't have to close the economy we can learn. ok we can learn on that thought gentlemen we're going to go to with short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on u.s. china relations space with our.

has changed american lives but pharmaceutical companies have a miraculous solution. based drugs the people who are chronic pain patients believe that their prescription is working for them and the remedy be said to. price at the. close of dependency and addiction to opiates to long to use that really isn't scientifically just now study actually suggested that the long term effects might not just be the absence of benefit but actually that they might because we want to. welcome back to crossfire where all things are considered i'm peter all about reminder we're discussing u.s. china relations.

ok let me go back to james in new zealand again it's go back now we started out the program. washington threatening china with consequences what does that really mean because after 40 years of coupling as they like to use the term interdependency and let's just face it the vast majority of americans like inexpensive goods that are in produce or are being produced in china because china is the patrick in the world that it's not being made in the united states are right and that is an achievement of globalisation i'm going to grieve hundreds of millions of people have been pulled out of poverty that's a good that's a plus as well however when we get to this pandemic and things go wrong you have to blame someone so. is this process of decoupling going to be can become

a reality and you really think you really think business elites in the united states are going to go along with it sure they'll wave the flag and they'll point fingers and all that but they're not going to pull their factories out ok they're going to continue in that well he did the bluster that's coming from members of the political class they want some kind of revenge for their own failings so i mean i can't conceivably seen the kind of decoupling that the rhetoric at it is and is that reflecting at this moment go ahead james. well let's talk about that revenge with the political class about 6 years ago a u.s. representative told me on the site you know if we thought we could be china i think the whole house of representatives would vote for war with china the good news is donald trump's a businessman and he has to reopen it the economy and i'm told that within the white house there's the vision you know peter navarro would like to buy on china any day of the week but trump has to reopen an economy and china is the number 2

economy and that's it so we're going to be making up with china through donald trump but the noise is this american spend about 50 percent of their taxes on the military and a big chunk of that goes to the u.s. navy and the u.s. navy needs an enemy in the enemy's china and not only is the enemy china it's a high tech enemy you know vietnam was a profit center for a lot of companies and china this is satellites this is missiles taken off from nevada going all the way to the marshall islands this is guam and korea and all canal up with with high tech raytheon lockheed equipment so preparing for war against china preparing for war against china is extremely profitable. you know it brad there and that's james brings up the great paradox here because

it's much is the political class and particularly members of the in the media want to bash china china is absolutely necessary to the united states in so many different ways 1st of all in trade in and cheap in making in ever better quality goods i would even say but the pentagon desperately needs china as an enemy because and then it doesn't have a reason really to exist outside of that ok and it's very interesting that it was in that in the early part of 2017 that the the defense posture of the pentagon they shifted from the war on terror to a more traditional great power struggle and china and russia were put into that category so again russia saves the day for the pentagon ok and china is also playing the role when you if you can't square the circle then i mean because then either you know they're an enemy and you don't trade with them or you're an enemy and you do trade with them what did happen how are you going to explain that you

can't you can explain the unexplainable there go ahead brauer. yeah i mean i think . about the whole business of political class like the 2016 election that took trying to power it shows that there is a clear like divide between the american political class which i would say that political and business class are basically the same united states but you have you have one it's that attached to classical neo liberalism in that you have one that's like the new trump people they see america 1st kind of protectionist policy and when obama did his pivot towards asia i think this was. as professor albert mccoy said it was actually kind of politically genius to box in china and lynch from got rid of this and then started. feuds with every nation in the asia pacific region australia japan and korea this is like a very serious threat and it gave china so much more credibility it's allowed them to flourish even more and of course it gets in line with this objective of america

1st because i think the united states realizes that their time at the top is done and they have to decide whether they're going to thrash around and try to maintain that in a neoliberal sense or they're going to. you know go the traditional traditional protectionist route the truck would like to go yet at the same time i think he doesn't actually understand how do you how to do that because he said he's doing it classical great power thing so i linger around and i think we're seeing the united states is no pun intended gasping for breath right now and then jim political sense yeah i think that's a good point to be in james because i think the with so fundamentally missed in the media is that this is a civilizational challenge ok something we haven't seen the west doesn't seem for 500 years and the real problem is it's not it's not trade at all it's actually not even. a military confrontation at the very core this is

recognizing that the united states is. the leader of the west has an international peer and and coming to it when we come to that realization it's a wake up call it something that my generation your generation never thought was possible and now it is it has come to us and it is very obvious and and the washington consensus can't conceive of a peer but actually you can take. this is a virtuous situation because when you have a peer then you can start creating the terms of engagement where we want to avoid conflict we need to see each other as an equal peer and that would be a process in which you can read that down tensions now once you know why he did it isn't there yet i think there are people in washington really actually know that but it's politically very difficult to say and that's going to be squaring the circle for them because china is not going to go away as many back when he can make the claims china will come out stronger after all of this go ahead james. a lot of

the. viewers to read michael klare last name k.l.a. are easy war with china we're already there. yeah we've decided that china cannot be appear that the u.s. has to be number one the problem is china's leapfrogging ahead with all the futuristic technologies while we've been debating impeachment and doing other important things so we're falling behind and then we have a military establishment with tremendous amounts of money and technology i was out in micronesia a couple months ago there bill were barely imagine a line from hawaii to the philippines those sound like words get out of globe and look what that means hawaii to the philippines we're talking billions and billions of dollars i mean micronation for the 1st time in history the 5 presidents of these micronesia nations are in the oval office with an american president meeting with

donald trump why for the 1st time in history because we're going. spend billions and billions of dollars to james on food in the pension dominic what viewers understand that because the measure no line did nothing to protect france in june of 1940 when it was invaded so i can use that and intentional. reference because the middle line was essential and illusion it didn't save france is this same measure is this a new form of that same measure now lying. measure a line cost a lot of money yeah you could look at the and there are a threat or you could look at that as a profit center and i stayed in one of the best hotels and they put me up there to shoot a documentary and nobody could afford this wonderful private dining room wood paneled wine and everything until the u.s. navy came and you know at a party which trip i mean we're talking about liberals of money preparing in every different way satellites and ships and missiles you know this is high tech

preparing for war against china i'm not saying we're going to war but there's a lot of money involved here. you know rand how do you see the u.s. china and china relations moving forward at least over say the next year because the pain in the wake of this pandemic within the united states could be horrific i mean of depression the magnitudes of particularly in unemployment nobody really has any idea at this point the consequences of this we're talking about the stresses that people have when it comes you know news in your job mortgages student loan payments i mean it's a cascade effect meaning it's happening now the pain demick will long be gone and we'll still be dealing with the economic woes that. we saw with this interruption of the the economy that is going to be cannon fodder for her anxiety and to blame

someone in obviously the media and members of the political class want to point to china how do you see this happening over the next year or so. i think it's really hard to know honestly i mean this is this is this administration i think it's it's always really pointless to to look at you're going to your political opponents or people that you disagree with and say that is crazy because you know this is a way to get legitimate did legitimize a lot of the policies that people put forward the united states always does this but i think we really are seeing like a historically. like a serious case of history here the trouble ministration is totally out there and they have no idea where they're going trumps is changing every day the people around him there are changing to an every day i mean this is what i saw last night and you guys watched the trump press conference yesterday but it also made me think it really was absolutely bizarre the way he had this is like randomly put together clips of the media and by the way i'm going to say it's not even just china that is

that is attacking i think the other day he attacked half a dozen media outlets you know one day on twitter fox news you know he was he was betting fox news his political allies he's bashing the democratic party everybody everybody's getting some of this but this isn't going to get your point that china you know the sad part about this is that this is actually a popular issue now is that even democrats this is like 80 percent issue he's now controlled the conversation very well trampas and now 80 percent of americans something like that really actually believe the china that is part of this issue what i want what i would call them is that he's in campaign mode and he's not really dealing with it was a documentary where i was out of my hearing on jane's going to give you 20 seconds of being a show of go ahead james 20 seconds. brad said even democrats i mean baracoa bamma kicked off the war with china down in australia in front of the parliament with the pivot to asia it isn't even democrats china is the enemy we love to hate we can all

get behind that for we're 4 years this is an old current in american history and we need to put an end to it already gentlemen that's all the time we have here i want to thank my guests in prague and in new zealand and i want and i can thank our viewers for watching us here at r.t.c. next time remember how cycles. the world is driven by a dream shaped by one person. thinks . we dare to ask.

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