yes that. the long term effects might not just be absence of benefit but actually that they might be causing long term. time action are times when you're watching going underground the whole team here hope you're all safe where away until wednesday the 22nd of april but in the meantime we're screening some of your favorite episodes of the year so far coming up in this show what does a u.s. funded u.k. lawyer mean when he references a case of secret cia nuclear warhead the blueprint smuggling to iran as a benchmark for a songes extradition to virginia we talked to the espionage act convicted form a cia spy named checked in court jeffrey sterling and 24 hours ahead of the 120th

birthday of the u.k. labor party whose trade unionist and socialist beginnings began a new age in political representation of the working class we ask a former labor cabinet minister whatever happened to raising the scarlet stamp to tie all the civil coming up today is going on the ground 1st extradition proceedings are underway today in london as the usa tries to get its hands on the most famous publisher and journalists in the world julian assange faces 175 years in jail in the q.c. for the usa james lewis is citing former cia spy jeffrey sterling to secure the australian wiki leaks found his removal division jeffrey skilling now joins me via skype from st louis in missouri jeffrey thanks so much for coming on the show so you know all about the tactics of the u.s. deep state racism persecution at the cia what do you make of your name being quoted in court if i didn't read their name dropping. the course of their position and saying i guess they were referring back to the certain. thing for me shows how

reasonable it can be one thing to experience to mention was that in my prosecution persecution over yes you know there was absolutely no evidence yeah they had they obviously said it was circumstantial evidence so the us authorities say but james lewis has his q.c. his exact words were your case and the case did involve pretty bizarre covertly smuggling of nuclear warhead blueprints to iran to perhaps create war who knows specifically lewis said you and that case was a relevant benchmark for the prosecution and sentencing does that mean he will get a 175 years at least i was facing are also over a 100 years based on yes you know it's our chance that i was alone and i did he may not only in my case that be you know that the judge are going to be clear in stating that be sensing geir arts or way out of balance i think she realize and

understood that it was a completely circumstantial evidence with no case and the government actually prove nothing but dark being on the government's side she's certainly going to hear and sentence me to i guess she thought there was a sunni only are 42 months in prison lined out that mr assad will receive that same sort of mercy or we've talked to people who have been in the court they say they can see all the u.s. officials and then you hear a british q.c. to speaking the words what do you think why do you think they might have been using your case so early on in the proceedings at this south london court and they trying to tie up the cia are they trying to connect a publisher and journalist to someone who like you consider themselves a wrongly convicted former cia officer i think what they're doing is. considering be efforts to use the espionage act with their. our own called

a darn good job to see to quiet dissent since acquired free speech i think it does make sense and where you know her purse or to wait for them to mention my case because there was an appeal in my case where the government won't be appeal so you finally decide i'm clearing me confusion about whether the government would go after the press were injured or by leaving us you know to. be a son's case that's tradition proceeding is a further a starbucks and it shows that the government my government will use any method necessary to acquire said what did you make of them then saying the same q.c. lewis representing the usa pointing out that wiki leaks cables were founded well he's a former cia proxy asama bin laden's house in pakistan what do you think when you think they were going with that case to try and get as saddam's to virginia it's all about him it's and they want to create an image so mr assad's eason going to me

super free moral that he's a terrorist if you will and making any sort of connection with. some of the larger just fulfills their purpose to make that image the bible or any other court in the world with me during my trial the only thing that i see. for the trial the only thing accrued beyond a reasonable doubt was that i was black and they have theirs they have to show during my trial because there is no evidence that i was there is on the ruling on american black men who have the nerve to stand up against the cia and u.s. government yeah in your book i wanted to spy the persecution of an american whistleblower you say that racism the worst racism was not in missouri it was in northern virginia where they want to bring julian a songes of course a publisher and i and a journalist not even a whistleblower what would he be facing he said not only racism but a right. wing ideology exists in that area so that we back corridors in your

years they are our home field if you will give us their court routinely. rules in favor of the government with the conservative hammer everything north a law what i face even with regards to jury there was no one on that yuri that was black you know out in america and most of the members of that jury also herit some sort of connection with our security clearances so there was already i think assumption by other they better do the right thing by the government or maybe it will come out so he could not receive a fair trial in virginia i don't think that's certainly what the united nations measure up to neil's meltzer told us on monday's a show but the defense team also saying that this trial which the british authorities think is worth having here in london they say that the cia cut

out they allege a cia cut out of spanish security firm was bugging the conversations of the lawyers we had jeffrey robinson q.c. one of the top human rights barristers in the world him saying that the cia were up to this kind of thing is that the kind of thing that the cia do bug people's conversations with their lawyers i think you know i had words no names showed birth sort of activity by cia or n.s.a. is certainly possible and does indeed happen i can't so i cannot of course speak to any direct knowledge or apne but there is certainly will urge you in capability of either also organizations well you wouldn't be able to tell me or. have good in the . helping the enemy that's another thing the barrister for the united states of america versus julian songe said and he said there also that the official secrets act here trumps the u.n. charter and the european human rights act what do you make about. that's helping

the enemy at charge i think again their past to go into the image aspect there and i think it's quite disingenuous of the state to make any sort of claims about any sort of harm because if he eventually years since to america to face trial under the espionage act the government doesn't have to prove any sort of harm for them to do so now all bolster extradition i think just shows that this is a political our prosecution what it's like what the soviet union. yes absolutely they have to portray this matter and as an enemy. particularly to the united states and to the world it will be a very sad day for speech and process in general you know years mr science extradited to the u.s. the lawyer again noted to the judge that there's no public interest defense for a publisher or journalist that was changed in this country not sure whether you're

up to speed on this a the family of a u.k. teenager killed by an alleged cia spy they have been supporting julian a son saying they want to see i suspect the cia spy a cool us and so google is extracted here but they don't want to sign it's taken away from just being a journalist is it one rule for the cia and one for not cia oh absolutely absolutely a dirty murder trial it was an incredible war out there you saw are claiming national security national secrets was only for their benefit. as i stayed in my book i sued the c.r.a. for discrimination my suit was not allowed to go forward because the c.i. a and b. b. an administration claim barracks if i were to go or work with my discrimination case there were holes a threat to the national security of the united states u.s. government in general will use it to their defense and also use it to go after its enemies yet that same sort of situation is not allowed to be used by individuals

who are complaints about the u.s. or trying to stand up to the u.s. government so is it is excess for strategy because they can point to you and right now if there is someone thinking of blowing the whistle on wrongdoing in langley at headquarters or it the myriad cia stations around the world they just can't now again it's a strategy of deterrence they're all chilled out if you say anything that we don't like oh we'll go at you and look weak. jeffery sterling stepped out why it will be such a one sided affair where the government is able to do whatever they will are there in the trial but anyone trying to defend against that because of the complications . of the national security will be very difficult i did my best to fight against all of that. it was a hell of about and of course it's not just purely innocent to the u.n.

repertoire says torture knob charlie detained by british authorities here it's chelsea manning who refuses to testify against a songe and who who is imprisoned there in the united states obama commuted jealousy manning sentence of 35 years saying it is disproportionate your vice president mike pence said there was a mistake to commute the sentence do you think u.s. authorities really want a songe manning dead is an example i don't know that they want her back would not serve the purpose of putting these individuals up as an example of what can happen if anyone decides to whistle or say or do you really think it may be an embarrassment to the u.s. government how would you advise someone out there right now who has seen wrongdoing in the intelligence services the intelligence community the military industrial complex given what you've been through i would say stick to. your inclination and stick to yourself and your guns and gold stay the course don't be intimidated

by threats of. retaliation and i reprisal those are very real aspects concerning whistleblower but for anyone to even be steps to think about coming forward that in itself is a very powerful. thing to do hopefully with a discussion or was laura service happen maybe we can finally see more protections whistleblowers take it out of the. political route. i think yes i mean that be a good example for someone who is wanting to expose government wrongdoing but it's doing the right thing so it's a unique person and i think even with these actions against me kelsey manning johnson react to you and julian assange arts. i think you can despite that people have integrity. and know how to do the right thing and i don't think this is going

to squelch any of that even if it isn't covert attempt at infringing the u.n. charter you wouldn't advise a whistleblower a journalist a publisher any of them to to attack the intelligence services for racism no i am not saying don't do anything like that because there are certainly reprisals but i'm just saying stand up be yourself stick to your integrity and stick to your conscience and regardless of how big the enemy may be you can stand up for yourself and you can fight against these individuals may not be a good outcome but as i have always myself i would never let you all see to something that i did not did and i would never be able to face myself in that mirror doing such a thing so contrary to my character and i think the same things can be said about chelsea manning john kiriakou emmett yet julian jeffrey sterling thank you my

pleasure thank you very much after the break the head of the 128 but they have britain's labor party and as members start voting on a replacement for jeremy corbin we also have all the labor cabinet minister of the party of the working class is relevant in boris johnson's birth oliseh morgan have a budget of going underground. this is a story about one. happens austria stray bullet kills a young girl in the street. what happens to her family and daughters in florida no mother daughter is buried in a cemetery meaning messes with your head what happens to the community the public was screaming for a scapegoat the police needed a scapegoat so why not choose a 19 year old black kid with a criminal record who better to pin this on than him and what happens in court to

be. shot after shot smar off the side of the deal. we don't know still justice for the. end of this trial unfortunately you. will still not know the actual genesis for. welcome back well to more of the 120th birthday of the british labor party now thanks to jeremy corbyn the largest socialist movement in any major country but the party now if i did self amidst an increasingly fractured leadership battle of the defeat at the polls in december joining me now is former labor cabinet minister lord cluck of when dimia who served as chancellor of the duchy of lancaster under tony blair he also served as they were shadow secretary defense and shadow agriculture minister will collect thanks thanks for coming on the show called been

turned into the largest social movement repeatedly in western europe is it now finished you know far from it and i think we've got to think jeremy called mean for the way he's gonna live and i support and you know the last election december is very confusing because if you look at it in catastrophic well you say cut dystrophic but remember we normally have 40 seats in scotland we had one we did almost a wipe out in wales you know for labor. we lost a lot to seize this time and if you look at england in spite of the red war that the press are focused on we've done so much better in england in december 2019 then we did in our last catastrophic election in 1983 in 1903 we won 219 seats throughout

britain including 40 in scotland. this election we won 203 seats 6 different despite scotland going there you know all about the lake district you know the areas that is the. kiss dharma chatter breakfast secretaries the argue the mainstream media's candidate to be the next labor leader was it just bricks that his disastrous breaks a policy that last called an election i don't think it was i mean bracks it was really symptomatic of a wider problem the seats we lost when the city seats in the north seat in manchester newcastle we won all the seats with much majorities we lost the seat on the fringes a news people were feeling alienated they didn't feel part of britain any longer and therefore the lashed out and breck's it was the way in which they showed their

views but to the election we take working to i mean we rarely got brakes on the doorstep it was all until called me. describe workington it's an area which the mainstream media particularly homed in on as the bellwether seat of the december election yes it was that the press really picked up a good story there and run with it unless iraq rethink i think fuel did and they fuel the story but it's an area which is 40 miles from the ems takes no really good road to get there and they've always voted labor as indeed they did but on the road on top of that alienation they rebecca long bailey who's the corba nice to candidate touted by the mainstream media again. she said progressive patriotism you saw that patriotism as a clue to understanding these last oh yes because what you got talking to labor

voters have deserted us by and large it was the men who do. speaking i'm going to say that and of course a disproportionate of young people in were content because there's not been jobs for years for decades so many of them have spent their time a few years in the army they got a trade there they would call it and there's nothing else nothing else but of course when they go back home the one thing you know that afghanistan or iraq just doesn't matter they've been there they fought there and it made them even more pottery how to make these super jeremy corbett as. dick a not was the key thing so many labor voters. i believe in their country because nothing else to believe. traditionally did nothing to believing and therefore they were they believed in britain right or wrong some may say that the reason jeremy coleman was able to increase their membership by such a great amount with a be able that never would vote or take part in labor party politics they were

inspired by corbin if we look at some of the pictures of the former prime ministers the few they were prime ministers in the 120 years they're all war prime ministers at the them of the attlee obviously working with church within the malaria merge and see for rubber to get the money for the n.h.s. there's wilson who didn't go to vietnam but arguably covertly was involved in the vietnam war is a man called tony blair the 2 you served under yeah i mean we take her wilson i mean he was very brave in vietnam he resisted america america was desperate to get us to go in to be at nam wilson said we're not going to go there and he obviously worked with the americans me clearly he did but he we weren't part of that effort and i think he believed he paid the price for that lack of support for the vietnam war which killed 4000000 people maybe maybe that's right and you can judge it but i

mean you go back to otley clearly i mean churchill was fighting the war utley was running the country and in a sense was preparing for i don't think he set out to do this but the outcome was he was preparing for that great labor victory in 45 that the labor party itself. all parts of the labor party lecture all the liberal a village of candidates will be talking about the great age of play in the n.h.s. and so on. we now know papers are still not being released about herbicides used in the malaya emergency how many thousands were killed under clement attlee his leadership isn't that the boy that we aren't facing the fact that labor has been responsible for a brutal imperialism in all its time in power well i'm not sure if it's right to try to judge events of 607080 years ago by today's standards that's the 1st thing the lack of knowledge the 2nd thing is if we're going to survive eve taking up

europe regional point and prosper we've got to start looking forward we've got to offer something to the people of britain not only rebalancing between the southeast and the rest of the country but between parts of the rest of the country i mean i forward my thoughts with laura trenton's as by the way here you just said yes but i do moving the treasury to teesside in the well and moving the house a load where you work up there yeah got there before you well no he hasn't got before and he's got it wrong to start with why would you say york it's not typical of the redwall of the voted labor in your book given what happened to his chance such a job and maybe maybe moving things up there was to do with the bad weather and the ability flooding going on up. areas ok but care storm of the mainstream media obviously wants to be the heir apparent to all of this he voted against an investigation into tony blair's iraq or even to for mass surveillance in the

investigatory powers act he. stained on the welfare act which disproportionately affected men women and children in the disabled he he he actually altered legal guidelines as head of the d.p.p. to charge those. on benefits with fraud under the ford act so they could spend 10 years in jail for mine the welfare or claimant excesses emily thornberry wanted to think went away more 14 years. i mean kids don't mind we destroyed by the left of the body just for those things surely if he's later i learned she does a communist by the mainstream media well that's right that's one of the problems one has in the labor party and but we've always had that problem it may be greater now i don't know i can't make a judgement even looking back after all we shouldn't forget the origins of the labor party and the beliefs of the labor party of using science and technology to

make life better for the future of ordinary people in this country and nuts what i think we may have forgotten. in some of the recent years we've got to look to the for the future that's what germany was getting at with broadband and it was loft at even though and of course there are food banks now in britain and one in 4 children are in poverty supply haps that's where the broadband offer will was lost but wasn't corben appealing to that will sony an idea of technology and the the white white heat of technology he was absolutely right absolutely right we need our t. in every house in the country so generally coping was absolutely right but on the other hand as i said the un repertoire for liberals to said the poverty chosen by the coalition to build democratic tory party was a political decision so bad is the inequality and wages have not kept up to that

level since the napoleonic wars it means nothing broadband to someone who can't feed their family and needs a food bank to to eat tonight well no but we've got to look to the future and also learn from the past i mean. territory yes of the liberal coalition with the with the tories when they cut nurse training by 10000 a year for 3 years that's why we're in the difficulty we're in with you know a 100000 people short in the health service the whole service is straining at the edges because of the cuts they made their territory was a big big mistake and we should not have forgotten the keynesian approach to economics which i was able as johnson seems to be employing now ok well just finally corruption is also being associated by the detractors in the mainstream media with the labor party whether we will thousands raincoats whether it be tony

blair's cigarettes and the gambling obsession by gordon brown of putting betting shops on every high street which the tories i think of curved a little what would care id say today about the labor party. well of course the interesting thing is that the town didn't things that hard it was after. minimum wage. and all the other things that he hardly stood for blair tony blair actually implemented with one exception he hardy wanted to ban drink as well and tony didn't go that far rightly so but but i don't care i would want maybe tens of millions killed wounded or displaced from a war that yeah well working class people the internet and it's all kind of yes i mean it is generally working class people not always who lose their lives in the

labor party was formed 120 years ago certainly probably about 80 percent of the people in this country with their heartens now it's less than 10 percent it's a completely different world and labor's got to adopt to that pretty quickly tony blair adapted to it and i do find it rather strange the way people constantly run down tony blair and the government and the gordon brown putting the 2 together they were a very successful government well they're judged by one other doctor still talk about peer fire new methods of hospital funding i've got to ask also about the major issue about the labor party as regards the mainstream media is not the minimum wage is not trade union workplace rights is not maternity leave. and these things it is anti semitism all the candidates say it is now anti semitic to call israel

a racist endevor something one could one could even see in the israeli press do you consider all the leaders that and the semitism for them will be the key because the me mainstream media writes their priorities well the media certainly have an effect i'm not but. for the ordinary people in the country it is things like trade union rights or workers' rights it is things like improving the health service it's things like maternity care it's things like when you discharge in hospital that's what concerns people in this country and the conflation with selling weapons to the israeli government to defacto ballast in children well i mean the whole effort of the labor government of trying to get you know the 2 parties solution the 2 countries solution is still in my judgment a lot it's been discounted somewhat is still the most likely way forward to achieve to achieve a long term peace i mean it me shouldn't should probably shouldn't have happened

although she has to go to create a separate country of israel but we did i'm going to live with that long bombing in gaza this week but log on to thank you so much thank you that's only your favorite episode of the most recent season of going underground will continue to show your favorite episode the web back on wednesday the 22nd of april until then try to keep safe and make sure to join me on the ground by following other news your twitter facebook instagram example.

that is just a resource i call don't play your 18 listen. to the law in the piece is found by taking the cd hoodie from the police. to take the safe cool shots walk to see it next you don't. give a solution safety feature and you move on to sort of the. rap rap rap rap rap rap rap rap rap rap rap rap rap rap rap rap. rap rap rap rap rap rap rap.