you have. to do your computer. a lot and very nearly be welcome to worlds apart as you can probably gas some joining us now from our usual studio guys from the campari docs my old almost going to conference reach over the last couple of weeks of isolation has become and been overbearing and while most of us can't wait to go back to our normal lives it's hard to tell what normal even means at this point how will the college 19 ordeal

she should the way we run our politics economy and social relations well it just doesn't amount joined by william robinson professor of sociology at the university of california at santa barbara professor romans and it's good to talk to you thank you for your time thank you for having me on i can see that you're also connecting with us you know a whole no no the only one you have. a whole whatever war almost a month. what it's been like for you. well we're on yeah we're on lockdown the university closed over a month ago in the 1st week of march and we moved to online education i mean this is a completely different life we know won't last forever but i also think that we're never going to go back to normalcy it will be by normalcy is great pandemic and now you've been writing about the perils of capitalism globalization for many years and

i think it's fair to say that you've been treated radical about it by the standards of the wall street journal i wonder if these last weeks and months have changed your analysis in any way not at all i think it's confirms my analysis i've been arguing for the last decade or so that what we're capitalism crisis is both a structural crisis and it is also a crisis of state when you're going to see a list edge of money and this pandemic did not cause the crisis you know only major they asked us to write and make and revealed to the whole world and it's going to aggravate all of that the dimensions of the crisis the health emergency relents but we're still going to be left with this dual crisis of structural the structural crisis of the economy and the political crisis of state legitimacy and have generally been mainway how base that structural crisis manager after it's off is

very interested and an accelerating inequality you know they told her sad a warning more than buy it we should undermine capitalism a. nation difficult to function it's a bit like a snake eating its own tail i wonder how do you think because 19 pandemic is going to just bag these. struggling system do you think it's going to x. and it's like time by a little bit or do you think it will be ultimately to final blow to. i know this is going to be the final blow to the global capitalism and not at all i wish that were the case now but to be honest with you i'm a democratic socialist but let's look at what's happened a global inequalities are simply unprecedented we've never seen these levels you mentioned one percent controls over 50 percent of the world's well but a more relevant say to me is that 20 percent of the world's people those that could

supply them the system control 95 percent of the world's wealth 80 percent of the world's population and that's somebody they cannot consume and so global economy has been pouring out over recent years and decades more and more wealth but the global market cannot absorb well so that has let's a. stagnation this has been a crisis waiting to happen this year actually mention of a crisis and i just said you know it would have happened without the fibrous that myself but many others have been talking about us being on the verge of a major recession even deeper than a recession if the u.s. for instance iran if argentina had declared a moratorium on its debt that would have triggered this giant structural crisis and the measures that are being taken now to address merchants see their temporary measures but they're going to aggravate the long term structural dimensions but i think what bastes. ahmed 19 or deal dreams. been assassin

or structural agree justin and what i mean by that is that global production change will have to reconfigure if i may you wanted an operating governments including the american government i now actively thinking about bringing to production oh. supply home and data hardly a positive development when the transnational capital classes. yes but that's temporary on the contrary what i refer to as transnational elites have been some have been actually well 1st of all the measures taken by governments especially. the u.s. government is oh is good just very similar to 2008 and those measures are only only going to aggravate the underlying structural contradictions of global capitalism i think the problem is with the thinking of salmond the thinking and if planning because one thing that the creatures of capitalism have now been taking into account is a risk that the global economy can come to

a halt their wage happened over the last couple of weeks and months and once you factor in that any your notion of profitability changes dramatically all of a sudden the world stops being your oyster and it's easy to see how localizing production and consumption in a wide specific area may see like if they for auction and i prefer a guy extraction it's going to give bill a big governments and local communities more bargaining power in dealing with this huge company well this chamber that doesn't mean they're going to get their way i mean the only way out of this crisis is a major restructuring of the system it cannot continue with this nail liberal capitalist it was a should model of the last several decades but so far what states are doing in a suggestion way that the principle state in the world the strongest in the world the united states is recreating what we did in 2008 which is to send mr amounts of

resources to the banks so you are right that we can't continue the way we were and you're also right that a lot of transnational beats and state officials are recognizing that but that doesn't translate into the banks and the global corporations that drive the global economy to actually force them to undertake major restructuring and there is a robinson to be a fairy fairy i think what we see around the world is the governments giving assistance not only to use and large industries but also to die most vulnerable it is and there is a lot of talk about the introduction of a basic income. many governments are sending checks that are here and maybe that's not an ad but i think that. that's a bit of a difference from how it was handled in 2008 let's look at this the figure and this is the economist magazine economist just gave us a sticker that already 7 trillion dollars have been approved at least stimulus packages just in to european union and the united states to 1st of all the vast

majority of that is going to corporate balance and secondly it's going into injection of money into the banks to do it they want the banks are not obliged to help poor yes yes they're released true grounds but they're not going to resolve the structural crisis they're basically crimes that are better in some countries like germany and denmark writes here in united states $2400.00 for a family of you know 2 grand winners is absolutely nothing it's irrelevant perms and well when you multiply it by millions that have actual lot of money you've taken out of a state coffers you know it's a few billions of dollars it's absolutely not and but but look at something else also there's also billions of dollars here in the united states going to small business they are getting long in 3 months they have to pay back that no roads so there's no real fundamental restructuring here the same thing for instance the i.m.f. just announced a trillion dollar package where countries and us and it's and

a moratorium on current more tournament take months but once they have to resume payments we're going to be back in the same situation because they're on the internet isn't it also chair that initially one shadows sat. stimulus measures right now as they were no one in line with what has been done before but i think maybe governments are and asking it as they go away and there is no actor there you're reading a discussion in the united states that some of those won't be written off in the company's he'd die and lawyers or the majority of the employees employed so. we can be certain how does how wrong the state is going to ultimately manifest itself that well let's put it like this the battle for what will happen after the health emergency itself as as is now underway and there are certainly many voices here among states among transnational waste that are saying we need a major restructuring and this is the starting point for these kind of can as in

stimulus measures and the really programs and if these voices win them then that would be that would certainly be a way forward but currently we don't have any indication that they're going to or not and the real economic and financial i was in the main with the banks and we name with those sectors of the globe or corporate class that are simply course in some more profit making and more sturdy now you mentioned a moment ago that they see this crisis as a crisis of state legitimacy and i think many political strategists would disagree with you because. they would suggest that this crisis if anything has reasserted the importance of a nation state you mean just like you don't own child i know you do but it is don't know chopra's telling g.m. what to do not the other way around hasn't called it 19 actually reasserted the importance of nations maybe as a way to reorganize our social lives absolutely i'm not arguing anything

differently and on the contrary the crisis demonstrates that we need the state we need sentence attention in the market in the economy we need state regulation when i speak about a crisis of state richard a receiver generally i'm not referring to that and research into how billions of people around the. world don't consider their own governments in their own states legitimate don't trust in those governments and in a capitalist system to resell their survival needs. to mention chunk i in one of your articles here accused him of quote criminal inaction and as a spy i took it upon himself to close the borders before it became standard practice he took a lot of criticism for that as well i'm sure one can find many people's records actions but isn't it inevitable that any government would be elaborate in dealing with so many and ylem's. and then in the case of look up trump this is very clear the timeline is very clear on january 30th the world health organization declared

local and out of the global emergency and trumps all he did after that announcement was to suspend flights from china and we lost all of that during the 1st quarter part question of march it wasn't until march 14th the jump just layered a national emergency so we last 6 weeks and during those 6 weeks trump was saying that this is a democratic hopes that the whole economy is going to reopen in april 1st that more people die of the flu than of this pandemic so absolutely you can't defend trump is criminal inept it's a no that's not the case for other governments around the world i mean look at the fantastic job of the south korean government gitmo china's reopened again but as far as is trump i would defend that criminal ineptitude and i know that you have an issue with lawyers add that at a moral and ethical category act previous a couple of years ago that in the beautiful fair world of in the future we'll have to i downed

a national citizenship and when it comes to and gag orders really very well line of the balance i may not well yes for a health emergency but that's very different than what i've been arguing we have several hundreds of millions of transnational migrants we have an increasingly globally it's a great reduction service and financial system and capital and corporations have been moving around the world in finance with many more accelerated fashion for the last few decades and yet people and people have been to an increasingly economy such as the u.s. economy is dependent on transnational my gran's are but puzzles my hands migrants when they go from one person to another of the world economy and play a critical role in that economy they don't have civil rights they don't have medical rights they don't have the rights of citizenship so that's an extremely unjust arrangements. have been there also any chance of getting a square tell you that they are also driving the wages down as make labor

protections while the local. population is far more precarious do you think they're wrong on that. absolutely they're wrong because 1st of all here in the united states we have our right here in california which is one of the best of all worlds now we have an incredible labor source shortage see if this health crisis continues to. collapse and the majority of those articles for workers are immigrants and i don't know any u.s. citizens that can get any job that has for political rights that want to go and pick strawberries in the field but that's not the larger issue i think wage. pressures that are going to not care to you a week so much of isolation i'm sure there will be a lot of people we should use it become stronger is i mean i want to pull out your mike now i'm so sick and tired of you know we have to take a short break right now and perhaps if you're if you are. one of the. working from home but maybe we'll be back in a few moments thank you. toby

19 pandemic not only sees much of the world in lockdown but it is also devastated economies then demi has been painful recovery from it maybe even more painful is it all a she's fault. welcome

back to roll down the pike with william robinson professor of sociology abby university of california santa barbara should i said speaking of ballad the. response to this been demick i think it's a bit counter to egypt and even ironic that the countries with the most laissez faire economies like let's say the united states had to impose strikes have the restrictions on businesses while a country like sweden this beacon all what and they socialists chose not to do that which approach you're more sympathetic to. absolutely the traumatic a lockdown is crucial and necessary in the united states and european countries are the ones in the kitchen but my biggest concern of me has wrestle with the whole world and the lockdown which is imposed for instance in india in the central american countries and south africa where 6070 percent of the population is in the

informal sector and besides it's a lot like if you're homeless and you don't spam always living in one single rooms also project tony left on the message that we do need to at least you know in france in the united states and russia is actually a death sentence for hunt you know hundreds of millions or billions of people in other parts of the world yeah that's actually a very crucial point that south isolation of the strategy if you are sending this pandemic is a privilege that not everybody can afford now and we are yet to see how different approaches that how outcomes in different countries i think it's fair to say that for the time being both in sway them and in the united states the dow toll continues to climb but i think it's also cheering that these kind of a long downey's absolutely unprecedented i mean it's a shame killer in bentonville history of capital is nothing of the sort has ever been that something on cheers shoggoth by where is this calibrated and b. out of egypt beach it was instituted almost everywhere in the world i mean

a little reaches countries of the well that means right you know about what that show. says if the major states in the world can almost overnight lock down the population and close down the economy for the health emergency then the same can be done through the economic and social emergency that we've been facing long before the pandemic i mean that moves the points and that and that also through the claim that perhaps they said transnational capitalists i'm not as. strong and carter planet in the actual as in your theory them to be. no i don't think that proves the point at all because again if again you know this lockdown and the paralysis of the company is very temporary but the nation's taken and that's why i stressed this points earlier the measures taken to take trillions of dollars and give nots of the banks to do as they will suggests that the transnational capitalist class is going

to come out of this winning unless you know there's there's both state give there's more of like members of the elites and states and unless there's also some mystery government you know mass strikes and pressures from below to do something different . i mean because europeans are talking about bad before and that if the banks in deep can keep me and read that old ways that would be true that all reduction and because as you very adequately argue you know capitalism cannot go on for the like bad being the structural imbalance that exists where you know they don't reach having all the money and the rest of us having no money to spend ultimately makes capitalism incapable of functioning why should they come up with some bare alternative for that state yes absolutely but the thing is that individual corporations individual a capitalist have only one thing that they're interested in is maximizing profit so

we need state and mess up your control and regulation will return pittel and i hate to be the point but let's remember what happened in 2008 it was clear that we needed major restructuring and from 2000 a to 2020 not only did we not get a major restructuring of the system but all of the programs were deep bench so the lessons of 2008 say that after we get these you know that helps emergent state things are going to continue to deepen to get worse unless states and it lightens elites and masses for below have the ability to impose a restructuring and general. an accent on who you know character it on the trans national cut will split us. i know that you believe that round this and damage is all more at many of our societies will look more like police they said or rob there and cruel will police say isn't that a bit too just ok and because even if some governments prompts you to temptation of making this emergency powers more permanent their resources for maintaining this

sort of regime indefinitely actually and we deplete it it's not in that interest you know right before this in december 2019 u.s. congress approved over $800000000000.00 write the biggest military budget in in in history right now the central lloyd's coordination of this crisis a deal with it and we need but through centralized coordination doesn't sense of occasion of control of surveillance of the movements of people and so what lose no reason to assume that they counter with states especially the u.s. they began which is a center of the world you know the global system and the military industrial complex there's no reason to believe that they're going to pull back and what i call the increasing move towards of local police states right now we have a wave of strikes and mass just consent the united states to the extent that there is more rebellion from below against global inequality right and against the and against everything going on to the extent that it escalates after the emergency is

lifted we're going to have more pressure from above to impose social control on track connie and we'll look at the state take measures that any police face that matters that require centralization and i think over in this crisis may have been seen because of centralization yard talking about the many of the traditionally more essential eyes space like russia and china that has been. you know we've seen from delegation of decision making to regional authorities and i think even in the united states the federal government has been acting more like. sort of you know has been lying charges logistics than anything else what is there to support this theory is a global police state i mean if i think there is general global community anymore everybody is scary for themselves at what time what i mean by global police state is that 1st of all we started this interview with these incredible mobility quality

and unless those inequalities are a mirror related the really roots need to clamp down at the best discontent rebellion which is generated by that inequality whether or not the clampdown is centralized and giants states and certainly remember it will be a police state is that increasingly the whole local economy has been cooling of self out of stagnation by wars and by conflicts and system of social control repression and unless there is an alternative willing out of stagnation google work and as you newsom and social spending from raising will demand there's no reason to expect we're not going to see more intensified conflict around the world which becomes very difficult for corporations and banks that finance themselves or. you know i have a child or a summary of communion i think a major difference between the old style of carry parity of well between a century and b. there can use that allegory terry neal is exactly how digital those social controls are when the state openly that crisis it's the place clear which is why they got

splendid when i've done a great cleaning when people believe that they are actually really when dad being controlled it's much harder to resist isn't it will wanting to upgrade least knew the ability of people being in charge on their own lives and if you aren't you are should read police matters it will become apparent that they're not. right well i think this you know to let the local police state beats down on 2 different populations that 20 percent you and i 2 meant of the listeners who can get by it maybe even florissant to this this system sure there's more surveillance on us. bones are now going to be you know moderates are the movement and so forth but but we're not the principal you know targets of the global police state the principal targets are again you know that the 700000000 transnational refugees and people in war zones the targets of will police say to where for instance wars or at least by the united states in iran or in iraq just in order to generate costs in those places of them they have guests displacements you know destruction of their lives

that are victims of global police state i mean it's not so much human rights you know what well i think there are many 20 percent are also struggling quite a lot i tend to approach these issues from a public health respect and i think that the current consumerist affinities the way to exist in the united states and the way of being spread around the world is outlook will ultimately decide who are. an addict a neurotic middle bawly disordered individual who consumes more than he or she needs who waste just as much and well out of it now becomes a cash cow one medical and all are all sorts of services i mean to some extent you know karkare ations are a just and i was living longer but having miserable life so that me do your sources of income and i wonder do you think college at 19 would be big enough and riskier who are people to pay more attention to how they choose to consume yeah but i mean

you're making a really good point that i have to add to you know full blown critique of consumerism but you know one of the good things i see coming out of this emergency is the neighborhood model which again i mean i don't like global capitalism but particularly it's nailed the role very and we've been in place most several decades and what isn't generated at the cultural in the social level is consumerism narcissism individual ism and alienation as you pointed out but what we're seeing now is. this health emergency is sparking a new sense of solidarity of mutual aid of connectedness to other people so again the this emergency is a turning point and what's going to come after it not just in terms of the economy that we've been speaking about acquittal systems but in terms of you know consciousness and cultural systems as one open now to struggle what comes next and while i was speaking about this nearly your own model there are some actually especially here in russia who believe that the crisis of capitalism that created

this guy right now was in many ways sort of ad dream determined by the collapse of the sony of muni and and the discrediting all the leftist ideas based on being an ideological balance to near liberal ideas which ultimately produce this runaway globalization and inequality what norm would dare say if going to take some hybrid of that unit do you have any idea. what mission be expiring to you i think the type of restructuring we need to struggle horn's clients or at this point involves extending like what we have right now is definitely spending and knesset in stimulus we most need to resort to or towards a global can as it is and that raises global demand among that 80 percent we need to move towards systems where states once again regulate the market regulate what corporations and financial institutions can do we need to rebuild public sectors

especially public and also educational sectors and social welfare systems we need to tax the rich and have progressive taxation rather than repressive taxation we need to have capital controls on financial speculation across borders we need grow our policies we need in the united states and we've been calling a green new jail all of that is what we need and it's even within global capitalism that's not moving beyond. well and professor norman some that we also have to leave it there because our time is up but i'm really grateful to you for sharing your insights with us today thank you thank you so much for having me on. thank you for watching and hope to syria and next week on the world of pride and they say and stay at home.

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