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and welcome the cross not for all things are considered on peter lavelle kobe 19 pandemic not only sees much of the world in lockdown but it is also devastated economies dependent make has been painful recovering from it maybe even more painful is it all asians fault. stopping the pandemic i'm joined by my guest in moscow is a political analyst and editor at interest me internet media project and in london across the alps enemy curious he is a writer on legal affairs as well as the editor in chief of the duran dot com regiment cross uprose in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was appreciated all right let's go to alexander mackerras 1st in london as the united states and britain. deal with this pandemic hear it. i have been i have

noticed that there is a very interesting ways of explaining why things have gone wrong and it's horn country or right primarily in the united states it's china and you have it's a very political issue because it is blaming china is one way per conservatives that say it is vox news to. say that it's all china's fault to deflect from what trump should have done or could have done in the early parts of this crisis here and of course it's we are in a political season in the united states a presidential election so this is it this is like of it russia gave 3.0 and then reviewing the british press here i mean again the the that deepest most bio recent phobia raises its head again i mean if it rushes even suggesting giving aid and comfort is somehow a trojan horse or a means of subversion here i mean you know hopefully future historians will look at this is the reaction of the media and some members of the elite were discomposure

the trial this as a pandemic was raging through the world i mean it really kind of defines any kind of sensibility go ahead alex or i think it doesn't think that's right i mean it's completely well actionable that's not to say that the chinese did everything perfectly. the problem me is that you know all governments in gross and in the united states had reacted for all this and i was just reading an extraordinary article that look in the london times cataloguing the fact that the 38 days the british government was basically on equal completely on the engaged with the problem and all prime minister boris johnson skipped. crawling says meetings to discuss this so you know what you do when you're failing when people thousands of people all dying when you're hospitals are overflowing when you don't. have

enough protective equipment or closing for hospital stuff what you have in britain you blame outsiders and you blame china because of course china is the great wrong evil and competitor and it's also sure hinkley managed to get this epidemic under control which is what we all seek merely failing to do so that makes us incredibly angry and of course you also blame the enemy who is always the consistence call the invariable the enemy which is russia we should have no role in this whatsoever the russians are providing help to italy they must be doing it to some sinister purpose if the russians are doing things better than we are that mess mean that they had their up to there up to no good again hand we have this constance pumping out all this propaganda which i'm afraid i'm sorry to say this i think this time especially the n.t.

chinese part of it is starting to gain some traction with the group their proper lation as people become very angry with the situation but if i'm so sad you know in reading the british press i came across 2 new terms that you know just this morning ok virus politic and cyber gulag apparently that's what's going on in the country lived in i didn't know that the guardian is all knowing and apparently here the interesting thing about china is that we weren't worth seeing a reversion or a return of this kind of cold war paradigm of the enemy communism the soviet union not our values i lived through it i remember it very very well and all 3 of us did ok but the interesting thing here in this case is that the west under the leadership of the united states had almost virtually no economic contact with the soviet block it was it was miniscule ok. miniscule and and in we you couldn't use

that as any kind of leverage and that was always one of the arguments against these guys and we use the term that we use now it with it was sanctioned it was sanctioned for 70 years ok with the be the exception of the of the time during the 2nd world war you can't use this same paradigm against china when your largest trading partners and one of the most to keep one of the most important key players in international trade and in finance and i could go on and on i mean. one point you can have an emotional reaction will make you feel good because of the of failings of your leaders ok fine all right that's so that happens all the time my kids it doesn't america a rational. agreement but that's what people did ok someone else but if you want to blame china then there are actually implications lately china and retaliation reparations what does that all mean in your mind go ahead. well it's interesting

that you are basically right when you're say that there was not march economic interaction between the west and the congress of the soviet war within nor exceptional congress which was a member of the wall the bank even before 989 since the early eighty's ironically hungary now is criticized by the european union if you read the negative i get go see in the european press the number of negative logical saval of the gary in government is much bigger. that would you want to go some voluntary qantas which actually a soft with the biggest losses you know that most of this country is such as spleen all the u p and the reason is i don't want to call you know the e.u. who just doesn't like the door but the fact that the victor orbited was more effective than boris johnson in that in continued. these is not important what is

important is that they're bigger organ is not our guy and boris johnson is our guy you know or at least he was until the breaks so basically you're right about china it's just amazing how hypocritical of the united states can be criticizing china and you know the award that mr biden and mr trump the require i called food. from china well when did the united states provide food you school on the wars in iraq won the war zone in syria or in leave the united states did not provide the full disclosure and not oh you know the washington post is writing china has pulled a lot of dollars on january 23rd and its march to resource as all freaked out in regime can well the huge problem is that the so-called democratic regimes

as it transpired simply did not have a lot of course but the will of hospital vats you know the didn't prepare for for anything that they didn't prepare for a war they didn't prepare for an epidemic they just hadn't we knew more of that so that they called to extract maximum of my need from the patients and the system ground built as it could be expecting that but i don't see you bring that even though. it's a really good point because i mean it kind of job pales what your your your your usual mantra which i always welcome on this program about ideology and you're absolutely right but you know what no one's going to deny on this program in our viewers are going to agree china is a very ideological glace but so is the west ok in just in a different way here ok and alex in we i mean again the same question to you i mean you know there's this talk of decoupling after 40 years of this globalization which . it is

a major partner and i mean just get your head around it 40 years ago we barely had stacks on china you remember that barely how they were not possible world and now that's because china is very real peer to the united states to the west it's a peer and that is something that no one thought was conceivable 40 years ago now before you went to the question i want to reiterate what you said in your 1st answer this does not absolve china of its behavior before during this crisis here are and everyone should be held accountable and we need transparency here but you know going from challenging their transparency to decoupling one of the major economies in the world that's essentially an act of war ok go ahead alex it's going to make it an economic problems on top of the health crisis that we already have because of course the way you're going to deal with both economic

problems there's a sterling for this whole crisis and how crisis itself is by putting resources internationally you can't do that if you exclude porteous by some estimates the well by by all estimates the world 6 2nd biggest economy and the world's biggest manufacturing power and of course a country which hires enormous financial resources but you talk about peter the fact that 40 years ago we barely registered barely registered and that's absolutely true but that of course is the reason why we perceive all these tensions is this enormous roets of china in terms of wealth in terms of power in terms of global reach in terms of attractiveness around the world some things that western governments and western societies are the more ideologically minded people. in the

west had been extremely unnerved by i can't help but think that what has happened is that this particular health crisis has acted as a catalyst what. concerns the north up to the surface around us are make me say this now because yes maybe not using the word concerns but i would say neurosis i think that might be you heard. because it may be because the west has never had an international period for 500 years something does not compute people can't understand it here demon let me go to you before we go to the break here i mean also with the demonization of russia we've had specifically since 2014 but i mean recent phobia goes way way back but me in a policy sense in the saying since 2014 we've seen russia and china become closer together china is now in the hot seat right now being criticized what do you see it you see russia and china coming more and more close and this is something that is

actually a function of the demonization and the the recent bobbie of the comes out of the west go ahead human. well i'm fortunately these. kind of human eyes asian award china and russia start it all on a go before trunking to power up. you know just let's remember the facts you know mr obama when he established that he is a specific quatenus which meant what larry king revolver he excluded china and russia. so it was supposed to be transpacific but somehow it didn't go all over very important country it's you know some would say the most important country is on the western side of the pacific. now mr vigeland is is blas didn't draw for raising china's transparency you know trump said something good. about china when china released their general over their new wireless and

they make you jump in here i have to go have to go to a hard break ok we're going to go to short break i'm out of that short break we'll continue our discussion on china bashing stay. join me every thursday on the alex salmond field and i'll be speaking to us of the world of politics this i'm show business i'll see you then.

welcome back to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing china bashing. ok i want to go back to how it sit in london and one of the things i find very very interesting and i'm actually quite delighted about it is that now this leaves some elements of the political elites in the west particularly in the united states wanting to point the finger at china now everyone across the board has to reconsider globalization because this is how we got here ok this is exactly how we got here and and i want to just pick up with something that de mint had to say earlier you know it's called the pandemic for a reason it's cost of the entire world you can't fix a pandemic independently you have to have an international perspective not a global list one here but i threw me it's very interesting because over the last

couple of weeks in lockdown in warranty in my own home i brought on a lot of liberal economists and they. you know i started saying well what about you know economic nationalism in the in the what the in the frailties the daily years of globalization what about the renewed attraction of having economic sovereignty everybody starts wiggling into a little bit of a sway coming down ok because these are all obvious questions we have. to ask go ahead alex. can i just come back to a point that was made before which is of course the democratic society supposedly have been less effective at mobilizing their resources than supposedly your thora tarried ones that is completely not true there is a complete misunderstanding of historical perspective democratic societies used to be extremely efficient at mobilizing resources the reason they are not successful

today is because they've become far less democratic as global oil. has entrenched power for financial all the darkies in the way in western societies that are inimical to things like manufacturing. all those can do things and have been using globalization in order to trench their own positions the heart of the world financial system that are used for globalization is now international cooperation such as we used to have was saw in states with strong vibrant economies based often on you know use it with strong manufacturing base is able to cooperate with each other in a sensible way to deal with joint problems that's what used to happen it's become

thermal difficult now because globalization has weakened economies and societies and it has also created tension in the international system which had not existed before so that people feel deeply suspicious of each other they are extremely concerned about what you know the united states might be doing what china might be doing in ways which once upon a time would not have a recent glow. they should ease part of the problem he's one this thing has spread so fast it's one thing it's improving so difficult to develop both can hear a reaction at state level and an international reaction. and you know also it's shown vulnerabilities ok. it's one of the it's some of the weaknesses that we've seen in this quite every time you know john maynard keynes

said this is very interesting about the great depression when is it when the great depression started we started seeing the level of corruption the frailties and the inefficiencies of the market that so many people worship ok that 22000000 people that just applied for unemployment that this was something that had nothing to do with them and they're going to pay a very high price and i'm on this program we're going to keep an eye on that ok because this crisis is far from over the pandemic may be stomped out and it will be but the economic crisis is going to stay with us and it's all because of globalization and we need to have that conversation even let me go to you because i think it's really important to discuss here you know i've seen in american media the people all riled up about who's to blame who needs to pay for this year but there's always the absence of knowledge or introspection is that the chinese government has to face its people is well ok and and we you see this war of words

on bowl signs you know the thing is something that you and i have noticed living in russia is that you know when john mccain was a lie all he would get up on the stump and he would start saying the worst possible things about russia and then russian national television which is subtitle it did this is exactly what an american senator says about us and they get right to the audiotape i mean i mean john mccain was one of the greatest soft power tools russia ever had god bless his soul ok but the same. it's happening right now ok when you have just bluster coming out on cable t.v. be it just be me just put it right on to chinese television saying this is what they think about us ok. well there is another example you know i think there is a logical rivaling mccain's statements about russia just recently in the new york times there and i would be goggle which you would you know smaller war against

american science and in the subject i thought in the lead it's sad that we can actually helps brad deadly diseases in the united states well that was too much even for the belgian cat for vons internal data including he didn't get that from the steel dossier. yesterdays and you know where taken by the way while getting to know more and more interesting news of all of this to you a dossier you know read by recently published you know the transcripts all the conversations which m.b. ice config general sources had with dog a dog papadopoulos actually it provoking him and just saying something bad about russia and make of the link between trump and russia which but almost didn't want to make that was there was none but anyway so coming back to what your just said it's just amazing and what is very dangerous is that we found out we learn from mr

obama that he believes this crap because of amerie tweeted this article headlined would use a lot of war against american science so if it puts a huge question who was iranian the united states you know a person who can believe such awful crap you know how * i'll follow dead where obama's decisions on ukraine on syria let me remind you that trump so far has not started a single war a bomb or 2 my mike started 3 in levy in syria and in ukraine. and i agree completely and we said ok. well i completely agree with alex i think it's very important to say that efficiency. is is not against your will chrissy democratic congress very very efficient for example during their walter wars you know where you had to drop horse that well get the bats for the world

that now will suddenly the reaches the countries in the world could not put up 100200000 bats that's just it's one of the m. or the amount they did when i come from the u.s. the u.s. can spend over 7 $100000000000.00 a year on defense about non-existing threats but they can't make facemasks ok ok go figure all right go figure let me go to let me go to alex here i think that you know again there's the leads in particularly in the media and in in politics not so much in business because they have such deep ties with china right now that's why i don't think this is going to work because again you can blow off steam and say you know point fingers and makes you feel good but at the end of the day because the financial is a nation of the global economy that it was started out in the west here i mean

saying you're in bed with the chinese there's an understatement i mean there are so commingled right now the thing any ought to be actually decoupling it which i think for many industries that should be like then later is why don't you make your own ventilators to protect your own people who want to make your own mask to protect your own people why don't you make your own and i buy audix to protect your own people i'm not there saying that you know that you should go and have our darkie not at all i just think it has to be done now because this that globalization hasn't been thought out because the profit motive was always 1st and foremost not the protection of publics and voters go ahead now we're. i mean i had to concede that for a fact because i've been here now and hearing this from businesspeople there is huge resistance to this guardian of decoupling when donald trump was talking a few years ago he months ago about you know american businesses you know ending their connections to china he came up against huge resistance because of course

with those businesses has become a very important part of their business i mean companies like apple and indeed tesla are heavily involved in the united states because there is the other side which is china itself and i think that one must not underestimate what a profound shock all this anti chinese campaign has been on opinion in china itself the chinese have been insulated from this until very recently i used to hear this in chinese you know we manage our relations with the u.s. and the west much more. effectively than russia has you know why do the russians get themselves into these quarrels with the west we've been able to avoid it now they see that in fact it's not russia's mistakes that lead to this it's very much depends on how the you know what what the dynamics are within western

societies and it has come as a profound shock to them and i think the chinese themselves are going to start adjusting their record of these and societies and society from now on to a future where they no longer think of the united states and the west in quite the same way as they did before as a really i mean economic knowledge that's a really good point because in the time that i've lived in russia there's been a distant a growing disenchantment with the west ok well the way it was in the early ninety's ok and i think that that's going to happen again i mean i look at what are called procedures publications i. i don't want to call them out now because some of the writers i like you know this is president she's greatest nightmare that the communist party of china is teetering no i think the people of china are rallying around the flag i mean they get it the most simple things wrong like i said when you take this. rhetoric that demonizes their country and you give it all of them

unfiltered you see the obvious result is going to come about they don't want to rally around their people and and and we have much of the same way is blaming outside forces ok and this cuts down dialogue when we need dialogue more than anything else of this well i think the program was launched in the united states a little lower in their national interest the problem i swear you listen to is i you always hear me in that sense it's very interesting to an interview to the american 6th daycare spectate to us given by them not only leave me you know the atlanticist french water fire he said that he was already concerned by the fact that european but we're starting to treat and that china is using this crisis to push its nation to engender and of quote here was lot of concern about france wouldn't get powers and people several times more than china and goes and sometimes

more than russia here was concerned by their retreat or he is a you always have any time you hear the last verse in the west talking about values that's what i turn down the volume and change the channel all right gentlemen that's all the time we have now i want to thank my guests in london and in moscow i want to thank our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time remember us not.

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