no chill just. below and welcome the cross stuff we're all things are considered on purely about kobe 19 pandemic not only sees much of the world in lockdown but it is also devastated economies dependent make has been painful recovering from it maybe even more painful is it all falls.

on stopping the pandemic i'm joined by my guest in moscow is a political analyst and editor at interest me internet media project and in london across the alps enemy curious he is a writer on legal affairs as well as the editor in chief of the duran dot com regiment cross uprose in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i don't appreciate it let's go to alexander mackerras 1st in london as the united states and britain to. deal with this pandemic here i happen to have noticed that there is a very interesting ways of explaining why things have gone wrong and it's from a foreign country all right primarily in the united states it's china and you have it's a very political issue because it is blaming china is one way for conservatives that numb all say it is from fox news to. say that it's all china's fault to deflect from. what trump should have done or could have done in the early parts of this

crisis here and of course it's we are in a political season in the united states a presidential election so this is it this is like of russia gave 3.0 and then reviewing the british press here i mean again the the that deepest most bio rusin phobia raises its head again i mean rush is even suggesting giving aid and comfort is somehow a trojan horse or a means of of subversion here i mean you know hopefully future historians will look at this is the reaction of the media and some members of the elite were discomposure the child this as a pandemic was raging through the world i mean it really kind of defies any kind of sensibility go ahead or i think it doesn't think that's right i mean it's completely irrational that's not to say that the chinese did everything perfectly but it's the problem a's that you know our governments in britain and the united states had reacted for all worse and i was just reading an extraordinary article

in the london times cataloguing the fact that for 38 days the british government was basically on equal completely on the gauge with the problem and all prime minister boris johnson skipped the far 8 crisis meetings to discuss this so you know what do you do when you're failing when people thousands of people are dying when your hospitals are overflowing and when you don't have enough protective equipment or closing for hospital stuff what you have in britain you blame outsiders and you blame china because of course china is the great rival and competitor and it's also short kingly managed to get this epidemic under control which is what we are signally failing to do. so that makes this incredibly angry

and of course you also blame the enemy who is always the consistent call the invariable the enemy which is russia we should have no role in this whatsoever so if the russians are providing help to italy they must be doing it to some sinister purpose if the russians are doing things back to the way all that mess main that they're up to they're up to no good again and we have this constance pumping out all this propaganda which i'm afraid i'm sorry to say this i think there's still an especially the n.t. chinese part of it is still a team to gain some traction when the broke their proper lation as people become very angry with the situation very fine and so said you know in reading the british press i came across to new terms that you know just this morning ok virus poland teak and cyber gulag apparently that's what's going on in the country lived and i didn't know that the guardian is all knowing and apparently here the interesting

thing about china is that we weren't even worth seeing a reversion or a return of this kind of cold war paradigm of the enemy communism the soviet union not our values you know i've lived through it i remember it very very well and all 3 of us did ok but the interesting thing here in this case is that the west under the leadership of the united states had almost virtually no economic contact with the soviet block it was it was miniscule miniscule and and then we you couldn't use that as any kind of leverage and that was always one of the arguments against it when we use the term that we use now it with it was sanctions it was sanction for 70 years ok with the be the exception of the of the time during the 2nd world war you can't use the same paradigm against china one of your largest trade. partners and one of the most to keep one of the most important key players

in international trade and in finance and i could go on and on i mean. one point you can have an emotional reaction will make you feel good because of the of failings of your leaders ok fine all right but that's so that happens all the time my kids it doesn't america a rational. agreement but that's what people did ok someone else but if you want to blame china then there are actually implications legally china and retaliation reparations what is that all mean in your mind go ahead. well it's interesting that you are basically right when you're say that there was not march economic interaction between the west and the congress of the soviet war with the north exceptional congress which was a member of the wall the bank even before 989 since the early eighty's ironically

hungary now is criticized by the european union if you read the negative i get go see in the european press the number of negative logical saval of the kind of gary in government is much bigger. that would you want to go some voluntary of the countries which actually a soft with the biggest losses you know the most perilous countries such as spleen all the you key and the reason is i don't want to call you know the e.u. who just doesn't like the actor or but the fact that viktor orban was more effective than boris johnson in that inconvenient disease is not important what is important is that they have. been is not our guy and boris johnson is our guy you know or at least he was until the bronx so basically you're right that bald china is just amazing how hypocritical of the united states can be criticizing. and you know they walked by them and mr drum

the require i called food from china well when did the united states provide food your school with all the wars in iraq one of the wars are in syria or in leave you're there now the states did not provide the full disclosure and law oh you know the washington post is writing china has pulled out a lot of dollars on january 23rd and its march to a resource as all land of the rebellion regime can well the huge problem is that the so-called democratic regimes as it transpired simply did not have a lot of course but the will of course but the bats you know the didn't prepare for for anything that they didn't prepare for a war they didn't prepare for an epidemic they just had and we knew more of that so that they called to extract maximum of line from the patients and the system ground

bolt as it could be expecting that but i don't see you bring that even though. it's a really good point because i mean it kind of job tails what your your your your usual mantra which i always welcome on this program about ideology and you're absolutely right but you know what no one's going to deny on this program in our viewers are going to agree china is a very ideological glace but so is the west ok in just in a different way here ok alex and we i mean again the same question to you i mean you know there's this talk of decoupling after 40 years of this globalization with china as a major partner and i mean just get your head around it 40 years ago we barely had stacks on china you remember that barely be we're not possible world i mean and now that's because china is a very real peare to the united states to the west it's appear and that is something that no one thought was conceivable 40 years ago. we went to the question

i want to reiterate what you said in your 1st answer this does not absolve china of its behavior before during this crisis here are and everyone should be held accountable and we need transparency here but you know going from challenging their transparency to decoupling one of the major economies in the world that is essentially an act of war ok go ahead alex it's going to make it an economic problems on top of the health crisis that we already have because of course the way you going to deal with both economic problems there's a stirring for this health crisis and the help crisis itself is by putting resources internationally you can't do that if you exclude porteous by some estimates the well by by all estimates the world 6 2nd biggest economy and the world's biggest manufacturing power and of course a country which hires an enormous financial resources but you talk about peter

the fact that 40 years ago we barely registered barely registered and that's absolutely true but that of course is the reason why we perceive all these tensions is this enormous roets of china in terms of wealth in terms of power in terms of global reach in terms of attractiveness around the world some things that western governments and western societies on the more ideologically minded people in the west have been extremely unnerved by i can't help but think that what has happened is that this particular health crisis has acted as a catalyst what. concerns the north up to the surface around me say this. is your baby not using the word concerns but i would say neurosis i think. you heard. me because the west has never had an international period for

500 years it's something new that does not compute people can't understand it here demon let me go to you before we go to the break here i mean also with the demon is they shouldn't rush it we've had specifically since 2014 but i mean recent phobia goes way way back but me in a policy sense in the saying since 2014 we've seen russia and china become closer together china is now in the hot seat right now being criticized what do you see you see russia and china coming more and more close and this is something that is actually a function of the demonization and the the roots of all the of the comes out of the west go ahead. well unfortunately these. kind of demonizing china and russia start at all want to go before trunking to power up. you know just let's remember the facts you know mr obama when he established that

he is a. specific quatenus in which then what now he can revolve he excluded china and russia. so it was supposed to be transpacific but somehow it didn't go on to all very important country as you know some would say their most important country is on the western side of the pacific. now mystified them is is blas didn't draw for raising china's transparency you know trump said something good about china when china really is that they don't know all their new wire us and they make you jump in here i have to go i have to go to a hard break ok we're going to go to short break and out of that short break we'll continue our discussion on china bashing.

faisal i've been arguing for the last decade or so. who is it was crisis is both a structural prices and it is also a crisis of state when you're going to see in a capitalist and your money and this and then it did not cause that crisis it only made it there. and made and we deal with it so the whole world and it's going to aggravate all of the rats and dimensions of the crisis the health emergency lands we're still going to be left with this dual crisis of structural the structural crisis of the economy and the political crisis of state budget in the student you're. welcome back to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind

you we're discussing china bashing. ok i want to go back to how it sit in london one of the things i find very very interesting and i'm actually quite delighted about it is that now this these some elements of the political elites in the west particularly in the united states want to point the finger at china now everyone across the board has to reconsider globalization because this is how we got here ok this is exactly how we got here and and i want to just pick up with something that demon had to say earlier you know it's called the pandemic for a reason it's cross of the entire world you can't fix a pandemic independently you have to have an international perspective not a global list one here but i threw me it's very interesting because over the last couple of weeks in lockdown in warranty and in my own home i brought on

a lot of liberal economists and they did get digital you know i started same. well what about you know economic nationalism in the in the in the frailties the daily years of globalization what about the renewed attraction of having economic sovereignty everybody starts wiggling and a little bit of us what coming down ok because these are obvious questions we have to ask go ahead now well indeed and can i just come back to a point that was made before which is of course the democratic societies supposedly have been less effective at mobilizing their resources than supposedly or florida tarried once that is completely not true there is a complete misunderstanding of historical perspective democratic societies used to be extremely efficient at mobilizing resources the reason they are not successful today is because they've become far less democratic as global oil.

has entrenched powerful financial all the dark is in the way in western societies that are inimical to things like manufacturing. all those can do things and have been using globalization in order to train which their own positions are the heart of the world financial system that are used for globalization is now international cooperation such as we used to have was saw in states with strong why weren't economies based often on you know use it with strong manufacturing base is able to cooperate with each other in a sensible way to deal with joint problems that's what used to happen it's become thermal difficult now because globalization has weakened

economies and societies and it has also created tens. should was in the international system which had no success didn't before so the people now feel deeply suspicious of each as a they are extremely concerned about what you know the united states might be doing what china might be doing in ways which one simple notes on would note of a recent global hunt say should ease part of the problem he's won this thing has spread so fast it's why this thing it's improving so difficult to develop both can hear a reaction at state level and an international reaction. and you know also it's shown vulnerabilities ok. it's one of the it's some of the weaknesses that we've seen in this quite every time you know john maynard keynes said this is very interesting about the great depression when is it when the great

depression started we started seeing the level of corruption the frailties and the inefficiencies of the market that so many people worship ok that 22000000 people that just applied for unemployment that this was something that had nothing to do with them and they're going to pay a very high price and i'm on this program we're going to keep an eye on that ok because this crisis is far from over the pandemic may be stomped out and it will be but the economic crisis is going to stay with us and it's all because of globalization and we need to have that conversation diva let me go to you because i think it's really important to discuss here you know i've seen in american media people all riled up about who's to blame who needs to pay for this year but there's always the absence of knowledge or introspection is that the chinese government has to face its people is well ok and and we you see this war of words on bowl signs you know the thing is something that you and i noticed living in russia is that you

know when john mccain was a lie all he would get up. on the stump and he would stark saying the worst possible things about russia and then russian national television which is subtitle it in this is exactly what an american senator says about us and they give it right to the audience i mean john mccain was one of the greatest soft power tools russia ever god bless us all ok but the same thing is happening right now ok when you have just bluster coming out on cable t.v. it's just be me just put it right on chinese television saying this is what they think about us. well there is another example you know i think there is a logical rivaling. statements about russia just recently in the new york times there and i would be guy pickle with that title to deal smaller war against american science and in the soft i thought in the lead it's sad that we can

actually helps rather deadly diseases in the united states well that was too much even for the 1000000000 for vons in internal debate including the good god from the steel dossier. yesterday's and you know where taken by the way when getting to know more and more interesting use of all of this to you a dossier you know read by recently published you know the transcripts all the conversations which have be ice confidential sources had with papadopoulos actually it provoking him and just saying something bad about russia and making the link between trump and russia which but almost didn't want to make that was there was none but anyway so coming back to what your just said it's just amazing and what is very dangerous is that we found out we learned from mr obama that he believes this

crap because obama retreated this side of the head wind would use a lot of war against american science so if it would take you. question who was iranian the united states you know the person who can believe such awful crap you know how * how followed were obama's decisions on ukraine on syria let me remind you that trump so far has not started a single war a bomb or 2 my mike started 3 in levy in syria and in ukraine. i mean i agree completely and we said ok. well i completely agree with alex i think it's very important to say that efficiency. is is not against democracy democratic congress very very efficient for example during their walter wars you know where you had to drop horses that well of course that the bats for millions of the world it now will suddenly the reaches the countries in the world

could not put up 100200000 bats that's just it's one of the era the amount they did when i come from the u.s. the u.s. can spend over $700000000000.00 a year on defense about non-existing threats but they can't make facemasks ok ok go figure all right go figure let me go to let me go to alex here i think that you know again there's the leads in particularly in the media and in in politics not so much in business because they have such deep ties with china right now that's why i don't think this is going to work because again you can blow off steam and say you know point fingers and makes you feel good but at the end of the day because the financial is a nation of the global economy that it was started out in the west here i mean saying you're in bed with the chinese there's an understatement i mean there are so

commingled right now the thing any thought about actually decoupling it which i think for many industries it should be like then later is why don't you make your own ventilators to protect your own people why don't you make your own masks to protect your own people why don't you make your own and i buy audix to protect your own people i'm not just saying that you know that you should go and have our darkie not at all i just think it has to be done now because this that globalization hasn't been thought out because the profit motive was always 1st and foremost not the protection of publics and voters go ahead now we're. i mean i had to concede that for a fact because i've been hearing this from businesspeople there is huge resistance to discuss ideas of decoupling when donald trump was talking a few years ago he months ago about you know american businesses you know ending their connections to china he came up against huge resistance because of course with those businesses has become

a very important part of their business i mean companies like apple and indeed tesla are heavily involved in the united states because there is the other side which is china itself and i think that one must not underestimate what a profound shock all this anti chinese campaign has been on opinion in china itself the chinese have been insulated from this until very recently i used to hear this in chinese you know we manage our relations with the u.s. and the west much more. effectively than russia has you know why do the russians get themselves into these quarrels with the west we've been able to avoid it now they see that in fact it's not russia's mistakes that lead to this it's very much depends on how the you know what what the dynamics are within western societies and it has come as a profound shock to them and i think the chinese themselves are going to start

adjusting their record of these and societies and society from now on to a future where they no longer think of the united states and the west in quite the same way as they did before as a really i mean economic knowledge it's a really good point because of the time that i've lived in russia it's been a distant the growing disenchantment with the west ok well the way it was in the early ninety's ok and i think that that's going to happen again i mean i you know i look at what are called procedures publications i. i don't want to call them out now because some of the writers i like you know this is president she's greatest nightmare that the communist party of china is teetering no i mean the people of china are rallying around the flag i mean they get it the most simple things wrong like i said when you take this. rhetoric that demonizes their country and you give it all of them unfiltered you see the obvious result is going to come about they

don't want to rally around their people and and and we have much of the same way is blaming outside forces ok and this cuts down dialogue when we need dialogue more than anything else at this time well i think the program was launched in the united states a little lower in their national interest the problem as we usually say is i you always hear me in that sense it's very interesting to an interviewer to them as you can 6 speak to us given by them not only levy you know the atlanticist french who was a fighter he said that he was only concerned by the fact that you repeat and where we're starting to treat and that china is using this crisis to push its nation engender and of quote he was lot of concerned about france wouldn't get powers and people several times more than china and goes and sometimes more than russia he was concerned by the retreat or he is that you always have any time you hear

philosophers in the west talking about values that's when i turn down the volume and change the channel all right gentlemen that's all the time we have that i want to thank my guests in london and in moscow i want to thank our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time remember us not. only has changed. many american lives and pharmaceutical companies have a miraculous solution. based drugs the people who are chronic pain and believe that their opiate prescription is working for them and the remedy be certain to do no price at the. grocery dependency and addiction to opiates to long term use that really isn't scientifically justified in our study actually suggests that. the long

term effects may not just be absence of benefit but actually that they might because they want to. join me every 1st day on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to us from the world of politics sports business i'm show business i'll see you then.

revenue model registers dogs and registers litters so it's involved in a transactional relationship with those breeders and obviously the ones producing the most dogs are the largest scale breeders so why is it going to crack down on those large scale breeders and sacrifice.