the for the with. the low end welcome the crossed off where all things are considered done purely about kobe 19 pandemic not only sees much of the world in lock down but it is also devastated economies dependent make has been painful recovering from it maybe even more painful is it all falls.

on stopping the pandemic i'm joined by my guest in moscow is a political analyst and editor at interest me internet media project and in london across the alps enemy curious he is a writer on legal affairs as well as the editor in chief of the duran dot com write to make cross up rules in effect that means you can jump in anytime you want and i was appreciated all right let's go to alexander mackerras 1st in london as the united states and britain. deal with this pandemic here i happen to have noticed that there is a very interesting ways of explaining why things have gone wrong and it's a foreign country all right primarily in the united states it's china and you have it's a very political issue because it is blaming china is one way for conservatives that numb all say it is from fox news to. say that it's all china's fault to deflect from what trump should have done or could have done in the early parts of this crisis here and of course it's. we are in

a political season in the united states of presidential election so this is it this is like of russia gave 3.0 and then reviewing the british press here i mean again the the that deepest most bio rusa voting raises its head again i mean if it rushes even suggesting giving aid and comfort is somehow a trojan horse or means of some version here i mean you know hopefully future historians will look at this is the reaction of the media and some members of the elite were discomposure the child this as a pandemic was raging through the world i mean it really kind of defies any kind of sensibility go ahead or i think it i think that's right i mean it's completely you actionable that's not to say that the chinese did everything perfectly but it's the problem a is that you know our governments in britain and the united states had reacted for all worse and i was just reading an extraordinary article in the in the london

times cataloguing the fact that the 38 days the british government was basically an equal completely on engaged with the problem and of prime minister boris johnson skip to far 8 crisis meetings to discuss this so you know what do you do when you're failing when people thousands of people are dying when your hospitals are overflowing and when you don't have enough protective equipment or closing for hospital stuff what you have in britain you blame outsiders and you blame china because of course china is the great rival and competitor and it's also shorting really managed to get this epidemic under control which is what we are signally failing to do so that makes it incredibly angry and of course you also blame the enemy who is always the concern. systems call them invariable the

enemy which is russia we just had no role in this whatsoever so if the russians are providing help to italy they must be doing it to some sinister purpose if the russians are doing things better than we all that mess main that they're up to they're up to no good again hand we have this constance pumping out all this propaganda which i'm afraid i'm sorry to say this i think there's still an especially the n.t. chinese but also if it is still a team to gain some traction when the broke their proper lation as people become very angry with the situation but if i'm so sad you know in reading the british press i came across 2 new terms that you know just this morning ok virus quality and cyber gulag apparently that's what's going on in the country i've lived in i didn't know that when the guardian is all knowing and apparently here the interesting thing about china is that we're getting we're seeing a reversion or

a return of this kind of cold war paradigm of the enemy communism the soviet union not our values you know i've lived through it i remember it very very well and all 3 of us did ok but the interesting thing here in this case is that the west under the leadership of the united states had almost virtually no economic contact with the soviet block it was it was miniscule miniscule and and you couldn't use that as any kind of leverage and that was always one of the arguments against these and we use the term that we use now it with it was sanctioned it was sanctioned for 70 years ok with the be the exception of the of the time during the 2nd world war you can't use the same paradigm against china one of your largest trading partners and one of the most to keep one of the most important key players in international trade and in fine. and so i could go on and on i mean one point

you can have an emotional reaction will make you feel good because of the of failings of your leaders ok fine all right but that's so that happens all the time my kids it doesn't america a rational. agreement but that's what people did ok someone else but if you want to blame china then there are actually implications lately china and retaliation reparations what is that all mean in your mind go ahead. well it's interesting you are basically right when you're say there there was not march economic interaction between the west and the congress of the soviet war with the north exceptional which was a member of the walton bank even before 989 since the early eighty's ironically hungary now is criticized by the european union if you read the negative i get go

see in the european press the number of negative articles have all of the kind of gary in government is much bigger. that would you want to go some voluntary countries which actually a soft with the biggest losses you know the most perilous countries such as spleen all the you key and the reason is i don't want to call you know the e.u. just doesn't like the door but the fact that viktor orban was more effective than boris johnson in that in continuing the disease is not important what is important is that there have. been is not a power guy and boris johnson is our guy you know or at least he was until the bracks so basically you're right devolved china is just amazing how hypocritical of the united states can be criticizing china and you know the there was that mr biden and mr trump the require. i called food

from china well when did the united states provide food your school on the wars in iraq won the war zone in syria or in leave the united states did not provide the full disclosure and law oh you know the washington post is writing china has the low dollar on january 23rd and its march to resource as all freaked out in regime can well the huge problem is that the so-called democratic regimes as it transpired simply did not have a lot of course but the will of course but the bats you know the didn't prepare for for anything that they didn't prepare for a war they didn't prepare for an epidemic they just hadn't we knew more of that so that they called to extract maximum of line from the patients and the system ground built as it could be expecting that but i didn't see you bring that even though. it's a really good point because i mean it kind of job tails what your your your your

usual mantra which i always welcome on this program about ideology and you're absolutely right but you know what no one's going to deny on this program and our viewers are going to agree china is a very ideological blight but so is the west ok in just in a different way here ok alex and we i mean again the same question to you i mean you know there's this talk of decoupling after 40 years of this globalization with china as a major partner and i mean just get your head around it 40 years ago we barely had stacks on china you remember that barely be we're not the boss of the world i mean and now that's because china is very real. to the united states to the west it's appear and that is something that no one thought was conceivable 40 years ago you know before you went to the question i want to reiterate what you said in your 1st answer this does not absolve china of its behavior. before during this crisis here are everyone should be held accountable

and we need transparency here but you know going from challenging their transparency to decoupling one of the major economies in the world that's essentially an act of war ok go ahead alex it's going to make it an economic problems on top of the health crisis that we already have because of course the way you going to deal with both economic problems there's a staring for this health crisis and how crisis itself is by putting resources internationally you can't do that if you exclude porteous by some estimates the well by by all estimates the world 6 2nd biggest economy and the world's biggest manufacturing power and of course a country which has enormous financial resources but you talk about peter the fact that 40 years ago we barely registered barely registered and that's

absolutely true but that of course is the reason why we perceive all these tensions is this enormous roets of china in terms of wealth in terms of power in terms of global reach in terms of attractiveness around the world some things that western governments and western societies on the more ideologically minded people in the west have been extremely unnerved by i can't help but think that what has happened is that this particular health crisis has acted as a catalyst what. concerns the north up to the surface around. because you have a baby not using the word concerns but i would say neurosis i think that might be you know hurt. me because the west has never had an international period for.

500 years is something new that does not compute people can't understand it here demon let me go to you before we go to the break here i mean also with the demonization of russia we've had specifically since 2014 but i mean recent poll goes way way back but mainly in a policy sense in the saying since 2014 we've seen russia and china become closer together china is now in the hot seat right now being criticized and what do you see you see russia and china coming more and more close and this is something that is actually a function of the demonization and the the recent bobbie of the comes out of the west go ahead. well i'm fortunately these. kind of demonization of what china and russia started all on a goal before trunking to power up. you know just let's remember the facts you know mr obama when he established that he is a. specific quatenus in which then what now we can revolve he excluded china

and russia. so it was supposed to be transpacific but somehow it didn't go on to all very important countries you know some would say their most important country is on the western side of the pacific. now mr vigeland is is boston strong for raising china's transparency you know trump said something good about china when china really is they don't know all their new wire us and they've . been here i have to not have to go to a hard break ok we're going to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on china bashing.

join me every thursday on the alex salmond show and i'll be speaking to guest of the world the politics sports business i'm showbusiness i'll see you then. has changed american lives the pharmaceutical companies have a miraculous solution. based drugs the people who are chronic pain patients believe that their prescription is working for them and the remedy to be said to. price at the. grocery dependency and addiction to opiates to long to use that really isn't scientifically justified in our study actually suggests that. the long term effects may not just be the absence of benefit but actually that they may because we want to.

welcome back to crossfire where all things considered i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing china bashing. ok i want to go back to how it sit in london and one of the things i find very very interesting and i'm actually quite delighted about it is that now this these some elements of the political elites in the west particularly in the united states want to point the finger at china now everyone across the board has to reconsider globalization because this is how we got here ok this is exactly how we got here and and i want to just pick up with something that demon had to say earlier you know it's called the pay. demick for a reason it's crossed the entire world you can't fix a pandemic independently you have to have an international perspective not a globalist one here but i mean it's very interesting because over the last couple

of weeks in lockdown in warranty in my own home i brought on a lot of liberal economists and they did get digital you know i started saying well what about you know economic nationalism in the in the in the frailties the daily years of globalization what about the renewed attraction of having economic sovereignty everybody starts wiggling and a little bit of us what coming down ok because these are obvious questions we have to ask go ahead now. can i just come back to a point that was made before which is of course the democratic societies supposedly have been less effective mobilizing their resources than supposedly all thora tarried once that is completely not true there is a complete misunderstanding of historical perspective democratic societies used to be extremely efficient at mobilizing resources the reason they are not successful

today is because they've become far less democratic as global oil. has entrenched powerful financial all the dark is in the way in western societies that are inimical to things like manufacturing. all those can do things and have been using globalization in order to train which their own presumed sions the heart of the world financial system that he swore globalization is now international cooperation such as we used to have was saw in states with strong economies based often on you know use it with strong manufacturing base. is able to cooperate with each other in a sensible way to deal with joint problems that's what used to happen and it's

become thrown more difficult now because globalization has weakened economies and societies and it has also created its 10 should was in the international system which had no sexist it before so that people feel deeply suspicious of each other they are extremely concerned about what you know the united states might be doing what china might be doing in ways which one simple notes on would note of a recent global hunt say should ease part of the problem he's one this thing has spread so fast it's why this thing it's improving so difficult to develop both can hear a reaction at state level and an international reaction also. you know also it's shown vulnerabilities ok. it's one of the it's some of the weaknesses that we've seen in this great every time you know john maynard keynes

said this is very interesting about the great depression when is it when the great depression started we started seeing the level of corruption in the frailties and the inefficiencies of the market that so many people worship ok that 22000000 people that just applied for unemployment that this was something that had nothing to do with them and they're going to pay a very high price and i'm on this program we're going to keep an eye on that ok because this crisis is far from over the pandemic may be stomped out and it will be but the economic crisis is going to stay with us and it's all because of globalization and we need to have that conversation diva let me go to you because i think it's really important to discuss here you know i've seen in american media people all riled up about who's to blame who needs to pay. this year but there's always the absence of knowledge or introspection is that the chinese government has to face its people is well ok and then we see this war of words on bowl signs you

know the thing is something that you and i have noticed living in russia is that you know when john mccain was alive all he would get up on the stump and he would start saying the worst possible things about russia and then russian national television which is the subtitle it did this is exactly what an american senator says about us and they get right to the audiotape i mean john mccain was one of the greatest soft power tools russia ever act god bless his soul ok but the same thing is happening right now ok when you have just bluster coming out on cable t.v. it's just be me just put it right on chinese television saying this is what they think about us read him or. there is another example you know i think there is a logical rivaling. statements about russia just recently in the new york times there and i'm the guy pickle. who would yell so all

a war against american science and in the soft i don't believe it's sad that we can actually how it's rather deadly diseases in the united states well that was too much even for the 1000000000 for vons even internally i think one date included they didn't get that from the steel dossier. yesterday's and you know where taken by the way when getting to know more and more interesting news of all of this to you a dossier you know read by recently. you know that transcript so that conversations which be ice confidential sources had with dog would go up was actually it provoking him and just saying something bad about russia and making the link between trump and russia which. but almost didn't want to make that was there was none but anyway so coming back to what your just said it's just amazing and what is very dangerous is that we found out we learn from mr obama that he believes this

crap because of amerie tweeted this article headlined would use a lot of war against american science so it but it puts a huge question who was iranian the united states you know a person who can believe such awful crap you know how * how followed where obama's decisions on ukraine on syria let me remind you that trump so far has not started a single war a bomb or 2 my mike started 3 in the league in syria and in ukraine. and i agree completely and we said ok. well i completely agree with alex i think it's very important to say that efficiency. is is not against democracy democratic country it's very very efficient for example during their walled wars you know where you had to drop horses that well get the bats for

the world that now will suddenly the reach just countries in the world could not put out 100200000 bats that's just it's one of the m. or the amount they did when i come from the u.s. the u.s. can spend over 700 $1000000000.00 a year on defense about non-existing threats but they can't make face masks ok ok go figure all right go figure let me go to let me go to alex here i think that you know again there's the leads particularly in the media and in politics not so much in business because they have such deep ties with china right now that's why i don't think this is going to work because again you can blow off steam and say you know point fingers and makes you feel good but at the end of the day because of but mention was a nation of the global economy that it was started out in the west here i mean

saying you're in bed with the chinese there's an understatement i mean there are so commingled right now the thing any thought about actually decoupling it which i think for many industries it should be like then later is why don't you make your own ventilators to protect your own people why don't you make your own masks to protect your own people why don't you make your own and i buy audix to protect your own people i'm not just saying that you know that you should go and have our darkie not at all i just think it has to be done now because there's that localization hasn't been thought out because the profit motive was always 1st and foremost not the protection of publics and voters go ahead now we're. i mean i had to concede that for a fact because i've been hearing this from businesspeople there is huge resistance to this guy idea of decoupling when donald trump was talking a few years ago few months ago about you know american businesses you know ending their connections to china he came up against huge resistance because of course

with those businesses has become a very important part of their business i mean companies like apple and indeed tesla are heavily involved in the united states because there is the other side which is china itself and i think that one must not underestimate what a profound shock all this anti chinese campaign has been on opinion in china itself the chinese have been insulated from this until very recently i used to hear this in chinese you know we managed our relations with the u.s. and the west much more. effectively than russia as you know why do the russians get themselves into these quarrels with the west we've been able to avoid it now they see that in fact it's not russia's mistakes that lead to this it's very much depends on how the you know what what the dynamics are within western societies and it has come as

a profound shock to them and i think the chinese themselves are going to start adjusting their record of this and societies and society from now on to a future where they no longer think of the united states on the west in quite the same way as they did before as a really. really good point because of the time that i've lived in russia it's been a distant the growing disenchantment with the west ok period well the way it was in the early ninety's ok and i think that that's going to happen again i mean i you know i look at what are called procedures publications i. i don't want to call them out now because some of the writers i like you know this is president she's greatest nightmare that the communist party of china is teetering no i think the people of china are rallying around the flag i mean they get it the most simple things wrong like i said when you take this. rhetoric that demonizes their country

and you give it all of them unfiltered to see the obvious result is going to come about they don't want to rally around their people and and and we have much of the same way is our blaming outside forces ok and this cuts down dialogue when we need dialogue more than anything else of this well i think the program was launched in the united states a little lower in their national interest the problem i swear you were listening to is i you always hear me in that sense it's very interesting to an interview to the american 6th speech daycare speak to us given by them not only leave me you know the atlanticist french water plant he said that he was already concerned by the fact that you were a peon but we're starting to treat and that china is using this crisis to push its nation engendering and of called here was a lot of concern about france wouldn't get powers and people several times more than china and goes and sometimes more than russia here was concerned by their

retreat or here is that you always have me any time you hear the last verse in the west talking about values that's when i turn down the volume and change the channel all right gentlemen that's all the time we have that i want to thank my guests in london and in moscow i want to thank our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time remember us not. something i may have missed in climate change on the story could you know a little spark that same day and chew up at your. home with nothing to do and that

i desired to know. how much older than herself but. just to. show we're still a lot. of you but it's not just on thoughts almost and you will not only know what the look so stop it.

do no harm and old shattered by the old before it up and down. in this episode we explore the ignorance and greed that led to our current crisis one of the 1st in medicine is do no harm. said that poverty is was the 1st to say this and what that means is that the cure for any medical problem shouldn't be worse than the disease that you're trying to.