you. will still love no children. alone can do so if you both visionaries needs to. find verses one of the most ancient in his inside our head once again proven we must take them seriously what is the nature of viruses and why are they there and she messed with us well i asked professor john nichols clinical professor of psychology at the university of hong kong and has been studying carnivorous his for 25 years and he's a leading expert in the field. danny pearl square her fassero anthology at the university of hong kong it's really great to have you with us so

much to talk about now how come to us one of the at the centers of sars epidemic back in 2003 and here right in the middle of it being the key members of the team which actually isolated the virus why do you think the world hasn't learned the lessons of it and where we are right now ok well. we did learn the lessons in 2003 and we learned the hard way because we in terms of we were prepared i think none of the world was prepared in 2003 or dealing with such a severe disease and so so the society has learned about things like social distancing about the use of. face masks and also for the preparation within hospitals having special wards which could cope with these emerging diseases which were transmissible and which had

a high mortality so. we learned so lessons the hard way so that's why when the outbreak occurred and the general this here we were well prepared so it was like ok it's it's on science science again so it was hong kong was that's not the wars that stop the elective. missions and that will just. around the mosque and that seemed to work. ok so you're saying that hong kong actually drew lessons from sars and is doing ok but i'm thinking of up the entire world because when he has sarce it was is heresy expressly for whatever it is that we're having right now. we see both hong kong and singapore because if i was hit hard by sachs in 2003 we were well prepared and so even though we couldn't be the mechanisms we did let other parts the well no i think the problem was a still this lack of people thought it would have their own countries if they look

at hong kong and china and in singapore and indonesia so what was going on unfortunately i think they were probably prepared for dealing with the vast means their own countries and that's why i think some parts of europe and in america find they had most of it is east they also accurate help but notice that actually the karen team measures themselves in hong kong are less strict than here phrased restaurants are open they. correctly get the number of pieces and that's from current liars and low compared to the rest of the busy world that's why we see we close the borders very quickly and also so. and also we also instituted graphically that the testing so we had because we were able to develop the test very rapidly with even towards december we had to test

a feral and so there's a rapid testing be able to have the isolation and so we have to keep the numbers about damp so most of the outbreaks which happened possible to has been in so where there's been a large concentration of people light in there are not on the cruise ships especially the cruise ships and also where there's been a large meetings. so those if you hadn't had those areas and i don't think we'll be in such a situation as we are now. do you think it would have. if it had only through size i mean how much it is a good thing to actually help the situation today ok well i think science was also very useful in terms like the trade and methods you see in science when we found that the patients had such the severe lung disease we were using things like steroids and other things which i bitch cause critics a few problems in the in this new outbreak it will learn that they lent what

therapies would working and what their pieces were not working and so that was actually quite useful. i think we're also a bit lucky because also remember how promising a pool i'm very compact and so you only have one central authority which is able to dogma and get a policy and so you don't have large states or regions which can actually institute their own policy. you know i am that. people of how come are so used to washing hands or raring rasul generally the ink jerimoth so they are after sars is that how the whole world is going to be after this thing that a good thing if you've got you've kind of a variance in point because in hong kong offices we were you know if anybody had a flu or infection and they put on a mosque and it wasn't considered any sort of social statement it was just you know

is a way of saying i've got and the on a disparity in us and we don't want to infect other people so there's no social stigma about people running mosques in public was a mind standing as a in some of the western countries is that the still there is a reluctance to call mosques and one thing but in hong kong based there i don't say that b.d.s. but i think they know that i put on mosque that would be some sense of helping the community and on not transmitting so and i will say the important aspects about assad is that in all the public facilities and hand sanitizers people will be cleaning wells elevates bottoms and so that's why i think automatically went into effect. was i think other countries have been quite slow to adopt those techniques and realizing a sense the these farces spreads through direct contacts and so making sure you

have a clean environment so these are just lessons which he learnt in 2003 and so it was not that much effort to try and put them into effect. in the end generate every so he's already seeing a resurgence made on the virus that fat that isn't used to science and scientists. ok so it's interesting thing is anything about 3 or 4 months. now learn quite a bit about process when it 1st started be well into actually an issue about the motor transmission or how lethal it was but there's been quiet and so there's been color reception so even now straight for much down the road down the road we're actually you know in all of our treaty you know we've had the marksman growing since chinese new year the end of january and so we have enough to work out what

type of cells in the spring to try to take effect what damage it's us to cells and also it's a transmission so you know i think within you know 2 history month pressure we've actually done that in hong kong i was running well they've been lots and lots of patients on this far so it's been but the problem is is that they spread artist has been fascia than the amount of information it's i think i think many people didn't underestimate just hi fi os this march would spread from around the well we're just getting latest news saying there's another outbreak in channel city of carving and a patient has contracted the virus to 78 people this city has been put in lockdown in the 2nd wave be in the way before we are even done with the 1st lady i'm thinking right now creating this need. yeah so so basically hong kong went through you know you have similar to other places and there's 3 waves in the initial ones

which are the people coming across the border from china and the 2nd one was when we had the local transmissions and the 3rd wave was when the government side could close supporters and they gave about 4 days' notice and so lawsuit it will came back from many from europe especially because they closed and the schools and so many school kids came back and university students and those are the ones responsible for that 3rd way. and so that said by having the contravening and basically and the testing at the airport been out since only that one in the bud so so now when people arrive at the airport they'll have a test and they remain at a. location one of the hotels until they're fans be free and if they're free. to make some cantin if they positive and they go straight hospital do not pass codes not pay $200.00 with

a group be monitored and if necessary see treatment so by that way we basically able to monitor and manage all of the all these new cases very protracted lee. we know that the genome of the new current virus a very much like sars virus is there any evidence to suggest that those who survived cyrus are immune to this coalition 900 i think that that is a it's that this whole question of immunity is a very challenging one and in a way say it is right she said because they are trying to process and they do have a similar genetic make up in maine and then they genes unfortunately at this stage it doesn't look like they'll be much cross protection with saz or with some of the other seasonal chronic process because you're probably very much aware is

that every year there are seasonal credit process which tend to cause very mild disease and so one of the hopes is that sound with those actually by some takes this state i think probably not. but the this whole issue of the immunity is one which is. a following one could say almost day by day because initially he was thinking once you get him in the senate we found his size is that once you got infected then you'd get a not one quote i mean response and so that could go softly protects you against reinfection want to wash fine and with this new cry in a box is that it's a very complicated situation ain't many patients who get mild disease don't develop any antibodies and then you and even some people you and it in screening they say they can't find the at so this brace of the problem is that you're not well

infection leads to this what's called. the problem is that is it that we've got problems with the tests because many of the tests there's about 4050 companies which are producing tests to develop antibodies and just last week the national chemist anstice in us and met with a policy center which they said unfortunately many of these tests i'm not all that great for us if they cross react so i think one of the problems is is we have a problem with the diagnosis of. the possum traction and also have some patients apparently don't appear to sarah can best so it it says whole concept of immunity is a very challenging one and did some. confusing one blessedly wanted to share a great grain are welcome on full control talking about what is the role share of viruses and horus and particular.

somebody. let me see on yes. i was on the floor some days in my bathroom you know crying praying. that it is time for us to die worms i was having children fever i didn't have any sense of say so smelled to me the most you know and i. want you. recently she goes on the oldish used to. live on simon to hong kong for the purposes. i have heard and. push myself to be for

me in the 58 i'm going to. go. oh all connected so fickle visionaries were talking about the nature of viruses encourage a virus in particular professor nicholls most of the models asked the king to call it that he never will get a series of injuries that they're saying that we should expect a 2nd wave but the 2nd wave is going to be less scary and mild air but i'm really sure of that he's updating the status quo which came back with 3 or 802nd wave was the most destructive way with the highest quality rate we see it at the 2nd wave

which happened in $990.00 s. like might seem to be more and more city and also it was also more associated with secondary bacterial infection. we have so many what with same with this code it is that you're not getting the secondary bacterial infection was huge saw that with a loss for and b. and so they this whole issue about it at the immunity and even identity of course we can't really compare this with influenza for a number of reasons say with influenza. we've all been getting. flu or either through vaccination or natural infection every year so our bodies have actually gotten ice history that you know $4050.00 will you know and how old you are of history of exposure to this to an inference of forest with this new crown of us is it looks like we've got no. previous history so there's actually

says no existing immunity so it can be a challenge to build up it's as i would herd immunity and this would immunity has been based on you know people talk about a 60 percent based on what's called this on or which is how much they can transmit from person to person. the problem was that with the chantry expose call it out is that the new estimation is that because of the source for this farce is that we may need through at shave a bad horse couldn't 80 percent of the population having the antibodies if we can get probably a good immunity so that leads to even more challenges one interesting countries which hasn't done day oscillations in sweden they've been very laid back and saying well you know so let's let's let everybody get infected

enya and we'll just you know deal with that and but they also put in place a saying that well we still recognize is that the so the ball incidentally will call the vulnerable is apt to keep those sort of more isolated and so i'm protected so so try to let society get on as much as possible but making sure that there's high risk groups on very much. looked off to and that you know the books if you have ways of making sure that infection control procedures and people come visit them unless they were in moscow so they're they're probably doing the right thing on that i say that probably is that reflection of the disease but it's more a reflection on they have on the health care system and the ability of the health care system to cope with these infections and that

maybe number of intensive care beds the number of events laces the access which the of collation have to. to. hospitals and and aspects like that so. one in one mine actually 2 years saying it every person who got caught 1000 was able to go to hospital right away and the mortality rate drastically lower than what we're seeing right now we see in hong kong anybody who gets country positive goes to hospital even those with evil even the asymptomatic and so i mean how does a couple of friends of mine you know they tested positive and that in a hospital now what we're just going the mountains on she's in hospital now after 20 days she's asymptomatic she's in hospital how do we know that correct

a virus gets in the in a from the body completely for instance the h.p.v. settles in solitary e-mailing all for a long period of time that can potentially cause serious troubles in the future yeah so this is what we've found with with saz is that we say how long does it exist and they say the wait is that people with it been looking at this is by looking at 2 things either fragments of the what's called the r.n.a. and so if we found this with sobs is that because we don't have any good pensions around your bodies is that when patients with sod we're finding fragments of the virus are innate in some of these secretions and install samples for about sometimes you know 2 months after so that we said oh you know this this farce existing for a long time but more. i think the better question should be asked is that how much

infectious tarsus there because that's the thing which actually determines is it still replicating and the potential for it to transmitted from person to person. and so on if you the studies which have been published in the past. months in just looking at the r.n.a. not having enough to do the infectious virus the problem reason is because especially the print faces you have to culture in the laboratory and that takes time it especially broadsheet and most of the party is not equipped to do that so i think a you might say find they are in a system of contra time but not necessary be infectious virus so when people talk about things like all of these patients become re-infected you know it could be that it's just funny bit more are in a after the 1st test was negative so i think we always have to look at some of these reports was just a little bit of skip's. well there is

a view which says that when a very sneaks into the living sally it actually starts to build into cells d.n.a. and thus alters the cell and the whole organism subsequently so if you look at it that way does it even mean that viruses in the sands are drivers of evolution. they have you know this is that many people who looked at. 70 both bacteria and parasites have been drivers of evolution. because people looked at the great apes and some of the changes that you can see from your work and from hundreds of thousands of years ago him inside bacteria or far spears or you know it's leiria or that sort civilization. because with any night about viruses and for. a 100 years it's become you know it's really

go back and see how much they have. changed and how much servitude to change evolution i think is this is talk about you know the past has made talk of might wonder not like some bacteria but i guess the evidence for that for these crimes process is not very strong yet so he carries a language of the virus in order to eavesdrop and sort of learn how to destroy. these this or that they didn't hate his bit which look at that. however viruses are really just a long string strand of r.n.a. you know they don't really have any any intelligence. and they're always changing. like you know the the influenza virus is they change from year to year and you know and and this process it's changing a little bit in that once you mutations every month. and is that it's

a way of i don't say natural selection is just a way because they is an increase in a farce his that they are always the crew free to make this mission. totally great so. it's a way it's it's just. you know what was he ought. to say something and i arrive recess to you a living or not a living thing. to me then on living there just. fragments of. you know connection michio those viruses cannot replicate unless they have another host. so if you so that's why the the preferred which was done on the bar she says if you leave this crime in virus on the surface that at 4 degree celsius it can remain

intact for about 2 weeks but at 5063 celsius becoming expats it after 30 minutes so i am cells bosses. who sort of become an expatriate naturally they don't come in since the message is always saying that you are saying that the virus is the host and if they don't have a host then they die how do you explain that it 19 virus action states and surfaces for days. so. they battle which. is that it is as you mention is that so viruses need the host to replicate so the challenge is if they if it kills off the cell. path defects before it can. release enough progeny. and you identify virus broke bosses being released infect other cells. so what this this and

that's why this virus is. very efficient transmission because the studies which are done in all of our show that you can actually replicate quite a lot without killing off the cell so other all the time this is it has so if it is many hundreds and thousands of copies the wrong way the obvious self so that's way it can actually replicate and then spread. to it to other parts of the them especially before it starts of course symptoms that's why this is more asymptomatic and other infinite other process the influenza process for instance they kill off this they start killing the cell within back $1.00 to $2.00 days after infection with this virus it is 556 days so you're basically

getting production of farrakhan piece but it's at a cell remains intact and not destroyed for about 5 days. you know. there's a lot of staycation right now in the western media that the new virus could have escaped from the chinese institute of neurology mohan which researchers say that parasites like current virus can i was the pressure off any of these claims that could this be true i mean can the virus actually is stable at and cause a polemic life this well. this happened in 1987. is that. a it's basically a thought that a. h one n one which went which emerged and cool city influenza escaped from a you know it was a you that an accidental inflectional release from hey look we're actually not

going to be 7 and then it's secular acted in the rather well until 2000 and not so they have been instances where it has been released so far says. about this release of this from a who they say you know that's that's sort of speculation is web site my my my my eyes go on that you know i think. i'm sorry i can't comment on that. pleasure thanks so last one is wonderful in some instances of pleasure hostiles i'm going to push you on the last day on your research and hearst a room down the hole that will get us a game barry thanks and thank you yes and and have a good time after they say thank you.

is your media a reflection of reality. in a world transformed. what will make you feel safe. high salacious community. are you going the right way or are you being. direct. what is true what is faith. in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join us in the depths. or a maybe in the shallow. hello

and welcome to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm peter lavelle with good reason public discourse is focused on addressing and finally containing the coby 1000 pandemic now the focus is on devastated economies we're in a recession will it morph into a depression will the recovery be you. know. shipped across the uk economic.