i'm. going to be. below and welcome the crosstown where all things are considered i'm peter lavelle crude collapse of global energy markets are in disarray over production low demand and lots of storage as witnessed some prices go into negative territory this is not just because of the pandemic this is the result of disastrous policies the energy market may never recover.

to discuss this and more i'm joined by my guest dmitri bobbitt in moscow he's a political analyst and editor of you know smee media project and glenn beason in oslo he's a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of russia's geo economic strategy for a greater eurasia original macross up rules in effect that means you can jump any time you want and i was appreciating let's go to oslo 1st glenn we have this pandemic ongoing and we have been in crisis in the energy markets and it's easy to conflate the 2 and one in the energy situation in the markets has gotten worse as a result of this pandemic but they are very separate things and i would say right off the bat that this is the result of disastrous policies particularly by the united states using a series of tax breaks sanctions and really just unprincipled market be. savior to try to support american energy companies and it's all blown up in

their face and a pandemic is made even worse and i don't think there's any really any real road back i mean this is some of the most worse was poorly thought out policies i can imagine and people and average working people are going to pay for it go ahead learn. it well i agree with that assessment because polish shale revolution a serious has been very much all shared all in the us media for quite some time and indeed has been very spectacular that is united states was taken from a huge energy importer to become a big exporter and they are going to trump celebrated american big game to its energy independence which high priority however this was achieved so many things was not just the shale taken ology the us was also able to a large extent to replace the energy or oil coming out of iran and venezuela by sanctioning them and replacing it furthermore since the russians and the south has

been trying to stabilize prices by cutting production in the u.s. especially been able to move in and failed to demand so it is been able to increase . fuel this social revolution on many aspects but one i would also. keep in mind that america's oil companies have been running up huge debts. especially since the global financial crisis in 2008 they've been enjoying almost 0 percent interest rates and the problem with 0 percent interest rates is super much lending away money for free and in such you have a lot of male investments that is see or making investments where they shouldn't be made and i sense a lot of consulting companies are able to continue to operate so a lot of this a lot of observers of the shale industry been waiting for some time now to see you know when this house of cards might collapse or what is the pin that will pop it now obviously this coronavirus has been well hell of a pin. but nonetheless it's kind of demonstrates i think yes the current crisis has

helped to crash the energy markets in the u.s. no one is driving flying without producing this thing but at the same time it's important to note that it is the foundation of it was already there flawed so i guess we're all celebrating or at least americans were celebrating energy independence and this economic a miracle it is sports knowing about it. didn't have the most stable foundation. for the whole thing to fall apart now in the current crisis just makes it. ok with me. now i think there was criminal intent here ok i'm not going to be kind about it at all ok i mean using sanctions as a political weapon to prop up your own energy companies i mean that is just you know that that is just throws in the face of international law on the entire concept of free trade here i mean this is this is anti 3 trade to i mean to but to

a point we've never seen before ok that is what that is one of the basis of the antigun is wailin problem policies and anti rand is to support american energy companies and the illusion the illusion of energy independence which is gone it probably will not come back and then you have this cascade effect with these oil companies are right up what glenn was saying there you know they're going to default on these loans and it's going to ricochet all the way through the financial system hundreds of thousands if not millions of people are dependent on this like on that part of the economy so this is that you know when that house of cards falls it falls catus stop catastrophic glee and that's what we're seeing right now with the rest of the economy spiraling down as well and that's why i said in my introduction i don't see any return to coronavirus for the for the energy markets here go ahead. well indeed. what it will that american conservatives was a logic. no politics that involved

a situation and that article called the way to. that the united states removed about 2000000 barrels a day or production by imposing sanctions on man soil and iran since 2018 you know that i think it was by squad greta and it's headlined. this is the beginning of the and all the u.s. energy independence. it's all b.s. you know it's your business that it was a mistake to war against you know poor people are important countries with economic sanctions you know these predatory drama you know it was also adequate and by his anti east trade war because of the trade war against china decreased the demand for oil so basically that your mind has been going dahlan since 2018 and now hold the wire it killed it. so basically

what we have in the united states now is and we want their. industry insiders call tank tops you know when it just evolved all their warrior games all the possible what we want for story of the oil can be a field during the next few weeks maybe months but you know i don't think that the reasons for it excludes it really material you know the european union which if it had been indeed present in the interests of european countries it would be very much interested in rational oil and gas by the european union did everything to wreck the brought all solid steam and it didn't do any deal save north stream so when they were that the states went. just air broccoli in the north sea and when the you was basically illegal pretty big legal sanctions on any companies that will

help russia finish their product basically the e.u. and you are doing anything to stop the united states from doing that i don't need any money to be pushed a little bit that the germans did push back and they made it very clear their position there would be dictated by washington but on the whole i agree with you here you know from the same article as scott ritter that demon was bringing up here and i love this there's a line that really stuck out to me or oil contracts come in go big bad policy is for ever and a big thing that that's really well would not i mean you know up on the one hand it's perfectly fine you want to have competitive advantage in a bandage in the marketplace i get there and that there are consumers there and for shareholders here but those that predatory nature of this it's all it's like karma coming back in a hard way because that these distortions of the market has made it even worse and again of course we have to recognize we have the pen demick on top. but were demand

is just flat lining all over the place so bad policy is forever in this case got headline. it's worth noting when we talk about policy because a lot of the problems behind this are physical in nature that is that the minus interest rates they've been helping to set up a lot of this say well this house of cards is just not collapsing if you don't mind at all not just in the u.s. but around the world now you see many countries moving in to minus interest rates or you know paying money to companies to borrow and spend and now we have of course they're going into minus. sign negative oil prices in which it's quite remarkable now actually having oil companies have to pay. people to take the oil off their hands now this is quite ready quite an interesting thing because. the human mentioned there's no storage and more tankers are you know just hanging

around the porsche looking for somewhere to live maybe i don't know what sorry and there's no demand there's no demand and then does a problem so again in the economy if there's supply and demand there's no demand in a more diverse thing of course deathstar stop pumping out but the problem with a lot of oil wells especially when shale is it can't just simply turn off the well studies often have to fill it up with various chemicals it's if you want to reopen them later on you might not to get the same profitability out of it if you can at all so it's hard to just stop the pumps especially if they think it's short term then it's easier just to continue to rack up and sell it at a loss but i think the problem now is what will what will be the american solution to this i mean in a capitalist system what you really have is you allow a lot of these oil companies in the u.s. hundreds of them to go bankrupt. by having less supply the demand the prices will increase and other oil companies can survive but it seems to salute. forward united

states for everything to stay seems to be simply be build them up print more money see if you can keep the party going on a little bit longer in order to watch for us but what you're saying glenn is on the one hand you are the cynic in me and you should be cynical in these days is that your billing out shareholders of these companies that have been underwritten by the taxpayer i mean the moment when is enough enough ok because this was a big can i get one and have energy independence i mean i believe in sovereignty here but the means of by the way they went through this process here is a as i said earlier is going to have a cascade effect all the way through the economy just to keep your friends that have shares in these companies that it's very expensive you have to have high oil prices but at the same time you know you you have this tendency to want to. not tendency to you this drive to put your own oil on the market and demanding other

people not participate in it again the most kind of anti-capitalistic anti trade process you can imagine go ahead beam well i think it's not their only market it's and a nature of i mean they fear that they're in that that states should not be using the oil 'd from being a so our you know where by the will of what you know there was a lot of tropical forests in there and sometimes and there's a lot of oil in venice so it just makes sense to use it in the united states this a year is simply a nature of the same story with the european union and the or. which is mostly basically russia you know they year they have the european union which is basically a big big you know stretch in the southwest and direction of being eurasia that they gear they have these peninsular is not to go into your house the oil and the

gas from the rest of the corner. is absurd it's ludicrous it's against their laws of nature so when i hear this war that energy independence it's not about independence it's about discriminate in it against congress it's a job yes you are right bailing out your friends who up reducing what you see in this very very controversial acknowledge your freaking whoa hold that thought we're going to go to one short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion on the oil market stay with r.p. . the world is driven by a dream shaped by one person. the

day or thinks. we dare to ask. something man has is to plan a change on the standard you know little spot that's. what you're. doing that i desire to know. how much although the. vocal just implant she told. me about that show was still a lot. of

bull you put it's not just the new bull not a month old bull not so that was to stop it takes place here. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm peter about a minute we're discussing the global energy markets. ok let's go back to you that glenn in the week and the 1st part of the program we put all of the focus on what's going on with that oil prices. demand and storage of its plays a very important role in all this but how does this change american hegemony in the as we enter the post corona. virus pandemic i mean there is

a lot of people saying that that had to monic presence has been declining ever since its peak at the end of the cold war but now we have this because because energy has been a key element in the in the unit polar moment for for the washington consensus then and now that's been pretty much blown out of the water i mean we have no idea where the global economy is going to go and anyone that says we know that they don't know what they're talking about because we don't have an update of points i mean every country isn't going in a different direction in trying to find solutions to a different rate of problems and they're all intermingled right now but i mean this is something that's been going on ever since the peak of the unit polar moment and if the energy is not going to be such a powerful tool in the strategic tool box how does that change the trajectory. of the polar moment that the americans are so proud of which seems to be

a berry very much illusory today. well. you're right a lot of the problems we have today started about this competition for for global hedger money or primacy and energy obviously has a key. key role in this well the main problem for the united states is that it's a power in a relative decline and it bases its security on privacy that it's global hegemony this could do you could make an argument for it probably wouldn't the main argument was from the early 1990 s. that if the u.s. was simply dominates the world this could lead to more peace because you know destroyed this way large powers from competing against each other as actually having this concentration of power now i was from the early 1990 s. the u.s. already. indicated this would be its main security strategy that is security through dominance and it was formalized and it's a curious strategy in 2002 no problem obviously the rising power

stay they will have to be pushed back in order to maintain or to preserve. the program over the last 2 years or has been done to us in relative decline so this makes the us a big threat to countries from china russia iran and though even the european union and the rising power is seen as a threat to this model of privacy so really the u.s. only has 2 main actions that is one could begin to accommodate the other large powers and censorship the way in strategy global dominance or privacy and start to call it a more multipolar system or he can keep the party going a bit longer by suppressing rising powers that means more investment in military force and this actually pushing back anyone who doesn't hold the line now. the problem with this strategy and always the latter is what the terrorists america has

been following in its thing and if we keep things going a little bit longer but not only are there exhausting all their resources but you still have a multicolor world forming the only difference now is countries like china russia iran this initially formed multiple or system in opposition to the united states because they all see the us their main threat trying to prevent their eyes now again obviously people be looking at the work in a country to. predict how it will play out after this crisis but the price will probably put us in a very difficult economic situation so far the chinese appear to be able possibly to benefit to some extent. you know the information coming out about russia and the west is worth noting that over the past 23 decades russia has been while to been working to fix its finest. well house in order to hang a lawless dead and he's actually put in a very good situation to you know. to get through such

a storm you can even are you let all this attention is also put to us russian a position where you can handle a very difficult situation suppose for example in the us where they made everything deficient to such an extent that they count their really absorb such a sharp. well i've always been a big fan of sanctions ok import subsidies there were it's worked really well ok all right the breach eason cone bear wasn't so good but now they've got it up to speed ok i mean it just took a little bit of time ok in the capital across the economy and you know de mint one of the interesting things here is that when we look at how. the international system is changing is that it seems really interesting is that in the 1st part of the program we discussed energy and that that tool in the in the tool box his tool box is is spent are being spent the financial system is in chaos right now the dollar decline but there's only one thing that hasn't decline and that's military

spending at the expense i would argue strenuously at the expense of infrastructure and what is what needs to be done in the us itself because because with the lacking a health care system that accommodates the entire population that deals actually with help and profit the u.s. is going to suffer from that for a long time to come and so you have all of this holds a rate of issues coming to a head at home but at the same time you have enormous defense spending and that seems to be the card that washington wants the players and maybe they can't be the same kind of financial powerhouse. not the energy hedge i'm on but they have the military it seems to me that is the most brutal and probably the least forward looking i mean the international system is so complex now involving very quickly in ways that we don't even understand as we get through this pandemic relying upon the

military seems like. a primitive way of looking at the international system it means we're going to use force not international law. well you're exactly right and this is what russia has in other and against the in the. our foreign minister sergey lavrov ceral our time sad that we want to talk about international war and the united states and the european union they want to talk about what they call rules and waste or debt which happens to be the sole called international liberal or no. and they're talking about hegemony and there was a very will die because of being in their american conservative court please tell the establishment that us hegemony is all we're where they're off there then you know larry some basically said they're doing that the states least its dominance you know its claim to dominance during the last 3 decades on the idea that they and

warm can protect these international liberal or that you know with out there this order would collapse well it is already a collapse in without the heads of states you know doing anything dramatic simply because it is order is unsustainable and what you describe very directly you know they fear there you are just print mining your may give our stupid people a shoe knew you don't spend 2 trillion dollars to fix it although the damage done by the coronavirus and they're the same damn you borel whining about you are keeps . about $700000000000.00 or us defense every year well sort of that the minds of the british empire that's how great britain went down in the middle of the plane that century and they didn't do this any battles actually won the war against germany but the military machine that they have already before the war it was

sustained all only thanks to all forms they had to war all wanted to keep their military machine working and it could not be sustained for a long time you know it was not the fault of individual put it to chanson it was a need tools brought us that great britain basically is ceased to be a war power. so the question is not a bar of us can gemini whether it will continue or not it ward continue or it will shrink the problem is how will their americans and the ward at large how will we manage these declines. you know you can you elaborate if you suggests some logic like the i mean demon you bring up something that is it's very difficult because if you're weaned on american exceptionalism it's almost like a cold you can't imagine the world otherwise and then it's going to be a it's a huge psychological problem that the political class has and and if they don't

they can't come to terms with the it's going to be it's going to get messy and tragic unfortunately glenn i mean defending the liberal international order i don't see what's particularly liberal about it and i and actually this is just a code word per american hegemony ok i believe you could have a liberal order but it doesn't necessarily mean you need a hedge of mine. no and you can argue that the rules based order having this liberal are rules based order it's. actually contradictory to have to moan cause if you're going to maintain the oppressor among it leads to a lot of. well a lot of rule breaking and furthermore the whole idea of a multilateral rules based system yes if you don't mind if one disorder is central about his death whole idea that they were able to. to uphold this liberal order but it depends on western solidarity so it's a western led liberal order though the problem with this is if you go to western

and order there 1st principled and will be that we need in unity internal unity within the west but then it became because they're a difficult question how can you actually have a rules based order and i think for countries like russia especially especially recognize that whenever there's a tension in the international system let's say russia or worse hole in the russia versus the u.k. it will be any possible scenario where russia is not in the wrong where russia is not the bad guy because if you go if you go to rules based system but it depends on western unity they were the west will always hold together and russia will always be in there also this whole idea that. there's a lot of internal contradictions within this liberal international order and as the international distribution of power has been shifting away from the west and towards the rest of the world i guess upholding pension money relies more and more on the course of its power that it's not just military power that everybody can only sign evanescent most important i mean that means. a liberal order as defined

by the washington consensus means you have to use coercion i mean what value is that in itself violence of a demon rapidly running out of time when. well there was a book obvious recently on this issue of the office and exotic coolly and then next and then. the title of the book is exit from hegemony on revel in all of them magic and all that and the 2 or 3 us abi your basically this so-called liberal international all of that is maintained by some very illiberal ringback means i mean pressure on china demonizing russia basically alienating the contessa like iran when you're so ally and a lot of other important independent countries and the biggest question is legalize these liberal or there is international war there is the organization of united nations what else do we need to have

a system based on justice that's why russia and china insist on their return to even if it will have to end on this no you can't have meaningful international law if you have a hedge i'm on but doesn't recognize the value of international law it is deemed quite a court against their interest as over time we have gentlemen i want to thank my guests in moscow and in oslo and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here r.t. see you next time remember. is your media a reflection of reality. in a world transformed. what will make you feel safe.

isolation or community. are you going the right way or are you being led. by. what is true what is right. in the world corrupted you need to descend. to join a. so the death. or inmate in the shallows. of the world has an interest in keeping its citizens locked up sold a. new virus will go by this rule 2nd restrictions will remain i think it's a. scare idea governments of the world very much interested in lifting this restriction is bought they are evidently and presumably scared of doing this in such a way as to provoke not the waveforms infection i see we should why are we involved

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