not after attention we're going underground on the day of another shuttle julian assange court appointment as the founder of wiki leaks continues to be jailed by u.k. authorities at a london prison struck by coronavirus coming up on the show how did it come to this and why is britain one of the worst hit countries by coronavirus is our strong sense conservative government looks set to adopt more and more socialist policies we investigate how margaret thatcher's arguable destruction of british society continues to ravage education culture and the world being of the british people and how we can fix it plus as the child of u.k. civil rights leader office scargill hold the key to

a cuban future for our national health service all the civil coming up in today's going underground the 1st european mainstream media has downplayed alleged corruption in the removal of the leader of western europe's largest socialist movement not that it stopped jeremy corbett in parliament continuing to ask questions about coronavirus that while his new need is a guest ahmed threatens court action against anyone publishing a leaked 850 page anti semitism document suggesting his allies conspired to lose a u.k. general election i want to pay tribute very briefly to all those health workers care workers delivery workers straight plain as cleaners and so many other groups all over the country that doing such an incredible job together with all of volunteers to deal with this crisis i think it's an amazing moment in this country's history however parliament's job is to hold the government to account and the question one of us is quite simply this the world health organization indicated that there was a danger of an epidemic from corona in january they that laid. to be

a pandemic the director general of the world health organization said in terms the way of dealing with it is test test test in order to ascertain the levels of infection across our society we didn't do that no we didn't do that here in britain but then jeremy corbyn today arguably represents the polar opposite of his success as a care star for that alone boris johnson in a new book by the b.b.c. is stuart macone explains the korban tradition the author of the nanny state made me a story of britain and how to save it joins me now via skype stuart welcome to going underground all the talk here is a free internet we need to have a new respect for shop workers for refuse collectors for n.h.s. people your new book begins with a story about the public sector on the post office tower in london with tony benn who i should say that is last ever television interview long form t.v. interview for this program just to recount the beginning of this book well and

that's good to know the you got the last interview problem a great great now i don't usually yeah we will yeah it's sort of the siege of the book reading the book begins with i was doing a t.v. interview with charlie bannon and we would united top of the what many people still think of as the post office tiring in london g.p.o. chatter in bloomsbury and them. the p.r. guy for british telecom n o n listen to a kind of chit chat before we began into uni came over and said hey guys just just want change you can call it g.p.o. chair of the time it's the bt tower it's the british telecom terrorism in the g.p.o. quite some times if you could remember to say that and sony band fixed him with this when their gaze said. i commissioned this tower i was involved in the in the building of this terrible planning stage it was commissioned by the government it was built and designed by engineers not checked of the state

and it was paid for by the british taxpayer those people down there and he pointed out the window and said and it was paid for by those people and margaret thatcher's stole it from them and it wasn't hers to take and it isn't yours and it's not a new no i'll call it what i'm like really and the guy just slid away defeated and i thought and since then coming these and use have been percolating through my head that eventually has become this book well today in 2020 amidst a pandemic we have a successor he would think to margaret thatcher certainly one of his heroines boris johnson and he's never been more popular according to the polls during this pandemic i should say to our viewers this book is not negative about this country despite as you suggest there what happened after that you know the 79 tell me about how much this book is infused with a love of britain yeah no it's not a it's not an ounce of british book at all i prefer to think of myself as billy

bragg called it as a progressive patriot but there is a difference between being a patriot and agreeing we want to tap into this country for the last 40 years maybe even half century which i considered to be essentially and fundamentally unpatriotic i think that's a revolution of $79.00 and it was a revolution you know. 79 with the revolutions in some way they had a massive revolution in iran and we had a massive revolution here in this country that we didn't recognize it as such i think it was a fundamentally anti patriotic anti british revolution because it said that there is no such thing as society in the common bonds of humanity between us are not really as important as profit and he said that individuals often don't paint individuals who do not pay the taxes and who live off shore and who stash their assets offshore it handed the country and its wealth to them rather than the british people so quite the opposite it would be announced the british broke out in this book connects with a fundamental british patriotism about what made this country great and any one of

these images country great was a section of the welfare state in 1945 by the most progressive government is confused ever seen so no i do not quite the opposite i consider the people who inhabit the boardrooms of this company and the offshore companies i consider those to be the real unpatriotic town ok well some phil says the refuge the last refuge of the scoundrel i've got to tell you the book's title is this phrase the nanny state and that is a that is a term used when it comes to the public sector obviously not being used at the moment during the pandemic where we rely so much on the public sector who are dying to save us you think that the nanny state the word itself covers room in the sense people who had nannies that's that's that's very much i mean it's a joke in a way but it's i think it's a joke with some serious intent i do say to people who complain about a nanny state or the people who have not eat it is an extraordinary thing that we

take this on board i mean we we are seen no i mean we're in so much what is the function of a state if not to provide for the wellbeing of citizens i mean and for too long we neglected that in time in thought the state should be some kind of other non-existing it's all off. just facilitating the protection of private property property and them and the smooth transition of money from one bank account to another usually to rich people's back and i want to reclaim this word that people have never had enough in the lives of taken to using and say no that's not what we know the not and stayed the well 1st that's a phone call it is kind of love made institutional and we're seeing not that when the crunch just come when we are when we face a really series serious national and international crises the people who we put our

faith in the people will not count on not denizens of the board they have been the 1st people to bleat and to give up but in fact as we see every day it's the n.h.s. from work it is delivery drivers it is refuse collectors it is all these people these people have been can neglect these people pretty patel says our own skilled workers well now we've seen they are fundamental and i wonder if it's too romantic an optimistic to shoot it will see some fundamental realignment and rethinking of our society but i do think we will change i do think you're not going to hear quite the relish pretty patel dismissing people who make less than 25000 pounds on skilled i do not think you will see quite the same relish in the attacks on state institutions and i certainly don't think you see any day soon conservative politicians applauding themselves in the house of commons for refusing nurses a pay rise that would not be a very good look at all i think in the coming months and years i want to get on to

some of the things you show that we have lost as a country since diving at 79 but the story politicians of course disproportionately were educated at private schools are we in britain call them public schools you know they're private why is it so important because certainly jeremy corwin the outgoing labor leader didn't want to abolish eton why is it as. as the manifesto said anywhere the election why should we abolish it. it is the fundamental. schism in british society i think. it is both emblematic of everything that's wrong with this country so if you just consider purely symbolic act getting rid of those places where people will be useful but i also think you cannot ignore the day to day practical repercussions of that the fact that. in a country where a black 6 percent of people 6 between 6 and 7 percent of people we think are privately educated they comprise a majority of michael judges the majority of offices in the british army the

majority of journalists across the board so even in the liberal papers you've got the journalists are privately educated the b.b.c. when john humphrys left the b.b.c. today programme many people applauded because they thought he was an old right wing kermit and that's maybe the case but he certainly his leaving left that program less democratic because not every single radio 4 use presenter is privately educated the 1st step any government should say if we want to say. you know how to fair society is absolutely overnight abolished the skills i cannot it seems to me so self-evident and yet to say to people think you some usually ridiculously communistic thing to say it seems like we british love play this play pleasure declare an interest that i was a i was wrong umphrey's producer at the b.b.c. do you think then that because of all of that we have

a tribute thing over the history that you so romantically talk about in the book by people like drawn. the people now doing the press coverage is about coronavirus because their patriotism is very different to that that in this book you know i don't i don't judge i don't want to do you know would you do me no joy but if the person insulting i don't. sometimes they think they are doing what they think is the best of the circumstances but preservation at all costs of this system as it stands preservation at all costs of an elite of an establishment all of the of of any quality is what they are a bite i happen having said that i do think it's interesting that he jumps in an instant case in point he's certainly not an idealogue like that you i mean he may well be i mean some people suggest he simply a game plays in a self aggrandizement in a bit of fun he certainly is not an idealogue the fact she was and i think that's why we've seen already that. really soon x. . enterprise in endeavors and suggestions have been warmly welcomed and seem very

conservative because they're not might be considered as we've been used to for 50 years or so but it's interesting in order to get them public on board he's got to embrace very public spirited principles the kind of principles they don't appear in the senate for the welfare state i do not think the page does mean is my pictures and no i don't think genuinely they really want every british citizen to have everybody's interest they have that of the few and it is their own class and it is their own people that said i do not want i want to jump on about my going to be taught examine my criticism they are faced with unprecedented problems and they are handling them probably as well as they can in some respects maybe economically although we see every day that we the people the scandal we see every day that seems to be complete lack of forward planning and lack of community thinking as well well the riches are that of course the chancellor caver goldman sachs and

a lot of the people in were thrown to the cabinet or associated with supporting privatization of the national health service has been a scandal about a previous exercise why do you think they've been able to turn a sixpence so easily and suddenly say they love the n.h.s. that they obviously were so much a part of a privatizing it before this pandemic struck well i think one of the reasons for that. seaming vault fact this has been the one of the engine things about this crisis as you say about boris johnson was hospitalized one of these crises is it has been indiscriminate inhibit attacks i mean it's the brunt of it pain is being felt discriminately as always in these cases the brunt of the pain has been felt indiscriminately by the poorest the most vulnerable that is that's what's happened with this as it in terms of its contagion. effect of everyone we have we were all as likely to suffer as anyone else and i think it's been the sheer that ubiquity of it and the fact that middle class people and rich business people will be affected

by has made them realize that they have to step up to the place i think of the coronavirus it only affected some poor people who they couldn't see you know in the cities because you hadn't grown felt you in that context what exactly i mean i write about them in the in the chapter on housing in my book i write a program for and said that as a symbol of many quality you kind of get more point and similarly quote one of the richest few miles on earth you had graham fell but i think it's been the fact that you don't like graeme felt this contagion if you like has affected as the potential to affect everyone i think has meant that. this government has had to be seen to be doing some good because and i say it would have been another graham bell or something even less public than graeme for i think it could well been swept under the carpet but this no but this is hitting a lot of people like richard branson in the backgrounds and i think so i think even the conservative party to us and some of their friends might not come to this on skates and maybe this is why they've got this new found generosity and community spirit soon i'll stop you there were over him so you're going to after this short

break. bananas is to plan the cherry on the stone to continue a little sponge that's them. to look down into and that it is that. vocal just don't. show. them up or should. you put it's not just on thoughts and you will not among them

so there is to stuff it takes to the list you. just. collapsed global energy markets are in disarray over production low demand and lots of storage 1st witnessed some prices go into negative territory this is not just because of the pandemic this is the result of just asking all the seats the energy market may never recover. welcome back i'm still here with the spirit people are watching may have been lucky enough to see the site of tens of thousands of cuban doctors pictures of them helping different countries around the world during this pandemic despite the fact that arguably mainstream media in this country is a lot we ensuring those pictures boris johnson used to taught jeremy corbett about cuba and it's alive as well or what why why did you think you are so important as

regards a country like britain because in the book you talk about relations with the relatives office gargle one of the architects of arguably one of the biggest flashpoints of international near liberalism in british history his connection to cuber and health well yes in the book i was very keen to do this i should say that i didn't do not know enough of banks to be able to say i would not want to seem to be a cheerleader for the cuban system overall but on one thing they seem to have got things wrong is that health care system and i knew virus friend of mine the actress maxine peake. after scandals daughter margaret. with her husband jim actually mine manager and set up our health practice in bonds and i was intrigued by this and went to go and i knew nothing about the cuban health care system except that many people said it was apparent and i was brilliant

and they have set up they sense of this in the middle ninety's tony blair's government came along to try and emulate it because didn't do it properly. because what they have set of cuban health care system is a system whereby there is a health home you go in there and you send documents i feel you know i feel a little money use hurting and then no one they need to question is on edge but cross the hall and see him also if you transpires that when you don't really want to happen if you're feeling depressed then there is someone you can help you know mentally healthy she's the idea is that it's a one stop shop it's $24.00. route and again i'm not a medical i'm not a healthcare professional not a medical sociologist but it do seem to me that. cuban system of health care as we are see from the phantom and you know dots to come in is something we can very definitely learn from because the cuban system stands in stark contrast to our national health service in a sense which isn't truly universal in fact talk about how the british medical association tried to destroy any open national health service what we were going through other elements of this book why the importance of buses you see this is so

crucial i mean libraries british rail the buses a so i think of the whole the bush is one that just does is show again emblematic and symptomatic of the wrongheaded thinking of 50 years in this country or 40 years at least. everywhere in britain and everyone remember him except one plates the buses in prime time back in the days when the conservatives are drunk on power looking for want to privatized next i mean. whatever you think about privatization i think you know there are certain things i say in the book i do not want the state to make my clothes i don't want to state to make my point music i don't want to state to make my career that's fine i'm happy to leave that to small business people and entrepreneurs but i do not want i do not want the private world private sphere to be controlling my prisons my water supply all my transport and i think everyone going to be some of those conservative privatizations i think maybe even

some conservatives themselves would agree not that some of them were insane and would run for pure ideological ground welcoming welcoming flog off next buses no one in britain wanted a privatized it was system that worked perfectly well and what you got immediately afterwards was a cowboy system whereby health and safety went out the window you going to munch then i'm down to oxford road the most polluting transport corridor probably anywhere in the world you get now get room places that have no job because it doesn't make any profit sense it didn't make any fiscal sense to do you know i just it's emblematic of the insanity of privatisation and of course what's the one place in britain they didn't do it's london where the buses are still controlled by the council and where they are still cheap what do you what more proof can you need in the name of the people who made the decision the people who made the decision to privatized transposes and said. because we like it the way we know that this way works so you put saps can have the stupid system we're going to foist on you but

we'll we'll have it this way thanks well during the pandemic disproportionate numbers obviously a bus driver isn't trance whatsoever actually dying on the was a bright light without b.p.a. we're not sure what is going to happen with that another element maybe of trying to understand the pandemic and the response to it because as i say birth johnson is popular as a prime minister you have literally you stop short of blaming. ignorance within society on the closure of libraries after the bailout of the banks in 2. you almost say to keep people ignorant you even mention dolly parton who's been on this show talking about her literacy project what was behind do you think it was actually that conspiratorial the 1st thing to go in this country after the bailout of the big banks with libraries in this country. well 2 things i'm on it if you don't economists program on it to be sharing a virtual space we've got because i mean she's

a terrific human being. i mean would i be so conspiratorial to suggest that they would deliberately closing down avenues of knowledge probably not in so many words that doesn't sound rather tinfoil hat wearing but i do think the prioritization is interesting though. to me the mark of a civilized society is that it would close the library last. thing the fact that they were so quickly dispense with is part of that same way of thinking though when david camp david cameron described attacks on the b.b.c. as delicious what we do not any time soon i don't think are any of his. successes but i do think that. it speaks of a certain cast of mind to say well the 1st thing that goes we don't need books for those traps account for them you know because you can go buy a book can't you know because traditionally libraries the public library system has been such a vital knowledge of network for working class people in this country and i do

think if it wasn't it well i don't think my bond villains they 12 the mustaches and struck cats instead and now we will get in the libraries and consign them to ignorance forever but it do you think they need the working class people got their knowledge on not for free and i do think they were handy and easy things to close down because i think on a very tribal level libraries like public transport like all kinds of public utilities are anathema to a certain right wing cast of mind of course one of the great expertise is is a music tell me about how one of britain's greatest exports of music still percentage points on g.d.p. is state music and how we should reinstitute the dough for 16 year olds well it's it again at some of the points i make in my book a kind of it's a personal polemic it's intended to be maple neck she's intended to be provocative meant 10 and it's not. white paper. now but i didn't reach something to be sent for the fire that i speak in the book some of my friends musicians my job is car

current richard hartley who spend long periods of time on the dot com superman to benefit honing their craft and as richard says in the book and as jamie bell of the art he said there was a degree to which the relatively benign unemployment system of e.s.p.n. was a kind of alternative kind soul you know and these were alternative schools because these are places where you could i mean certainly don't was not the right wing press will always tell the people live in the lap of luxury in the dock you want but you did have enough money coming in to you know sustain you while you write some songs going about together and as. you know from the disappearance to the stone roses from johnny vision to function and on woods on till we had recalibrations gone in recent years were. privately educated people take control of pop music but after for many many the state sets of projects just produced these musicians and they often honed their craft on the dole and as richard hawley points

out in the book is however much money i took in the dough on the dough i have paid now $10.00 times over in my taxes and so in some ways just physically you make sense as well as creatively the north south divide of course in the music of the accepting the clash or the other jam with that era maybe what about the north south divide where they came to media you talk about is another regular opera of them john pilger you talk about granada t.v. you talk about different types of media used to exist before london because the dictator as it were media was of the country although arguably has changed a little since the b.b.c. moved to manchester. well i think that in the mood for me to succeed b.b.c. sending i mean it is no it's not it's not cured everything but i think it has shifted the center of gravity slightly north which is not a bad thing because you mentioned a great granada which was the work of sunny sydney bernstein who was a capitalist but he was as i say in the book the book is not an anti capitalist or

a by any stretch the imagination but he eats against a certain way of thinking and a certain way of thinking shared by governments of left and right then it helps to have a force yes i do think things have changed certain for the better but you still don't get many people with my accent on the radio for news you still don't get it you don't get it and that's why i think that class cuts through all the other differences in british society that we've got a lot of in recent years and while we take great strides i think to increase our diversity representation in all manner in all manner of spheres about sexuality about ethnicity by gender class is the great unspoken to be less think cuts through and i think to simply have different privately educated presenters of different ethnicities is really progress but i think things are getting better but in some ways things are very much tense and they have just got to us finally about income loads of people in this country and in european countries suffering greatly financially from the coronavirus pandemic over here we have 640000000000 pounds

were given in court today raising to the city of london and then really complicated benefit strange 80 percent furloughs where there were family businesses i don't know there could even be a bit of fraud who knows it all of this you in the book however say things could be much more easy is here in this country with some kind of baseline income to stop people starving to death and i should say there is a cause there are well nourished people in this country i thought just last week i mean i thought just in the end maybe 2 weeks ago when the when the sudden shock of what was happening to us i think finally came home and began to get into the government briefings in. i thought are we travelling on the verge of an idea of universal basic income i still think it's somewhere in the back of our thinking because clearly this is an idea whose time has come trump isn't the next day well i mean you could argue that we are having a kind of universal basic right know

a maybe maybe we'll think rethink about it afterwards but it would seem to be an idea again that is not particularly political enough to keep party savvy just to be commonsensical. but again some people on the right think that the very idea of giving people money for nothing is a seed it will somehow sap our moral fiber etc to all that garbage that they always talk but. no it would seem to me to be very eminently sense but i doubt he's times come and these been tried all over the world nixon richard nixon thought about implementing it no communist richard nixon of course he thought of a committee and it seems to me to be eminently common sense to start saying now has a certain amount of money that you can have that will to a certain extent have all the benefits folded into it and it gives people the right to talk about freedom of choice the right to talk about individual liberty as if the sacrosanct thing well what could be more individual this here's your money do with it what you will bill and when it's gone it's gone you can do what you want

with it right now but it is a safety net it will stop people starving will encourage entrepreneurial isn't that's something you're interested in i think it's eminently sent i have yet to see any properly sensible critique of it so i think it's an idea whose time is coming soon we're going to thank you and that's of the show will be back on wednesday the other verse 3 of the u.s. switching sides in support of margaret thatcher you know war for the multi-discipline islands where british soldier is believed 1st confirm the writ of virus goes over the south atlantic archipelago until then give it as well as a media wash your hands of the forget to join the army go into the south that instagram and facebook. as the u.s. economy was booming growing numbers of people were made homeless. you can work 40 hours 'd a week and still not have enough to get housing everybody believes america still is

the way of opportunity the reality of we're not financially equality and the lack of affordable housing for a living minimum wage give many people new choice though that's been a problem with the city can always turn a return call the stay way almost. the food the food is low is because of the requires at least the most vulnerable or abandoned on the streets to become invisible comes. to me an assistant planet cheney on the stand couldn't let.