capital hit country in the world so far coming up in the show what price is a human life lost to coronavirus restaurants and government appears to think it is $60000.00 pounds we talked to former president of the u.k. faculty of public health professor john ashton about why so many nurses and doctors are dying on the so-called front line is u.k. and u.s. backed is the misuse coronavirus to propagandize against the west we speak to the author of a new book about the rise of the u.s. u.k. backed islam is a true one of its lesser known figureheads the anticommunist firebrand of donna has another place to be in the 1980 s. if you saw terror around the world there's new york texas and california all the support coming up in today's going underground the 1st u.k. prime minister barak's johnson's 1st full day back in downing street was marked by revelations his government has been deliberately inflating the amount of life saving equipment available to doctors nurses and cleaners on the front line against coronavirus a pair of surgical gloves was considered to be 2 items of p p and this came just as

johnson's health secretary matt hancock offered $60000.00 pounds pay off for dead frontline n.h.s. staff joining me now from cumbria in the north west of england is the former president of the u.k. faculty of public health president ashton john thanks so much for coming back on so how grave is the situation right now because the u.k. apparently faces errors incompetence is it mel fees it's all on the part of bars johnson's government well i think you know we're looking at or is of commission and . misleading communication. at least with regards to things like the deaths insisting normally presenting the hospital that's not including. fully and keeping us in the dark about what's going on in the prisons. seems to be

cooking up as an issue so i'm very bothered about this there seems to be an erosion of troops and a general feeling that you know we don't know what they're saying they're not being straight with us even though i'm trying to ski said you couldn't quantify media bias you mentioned there the apparent mismatch of death rate do you think the government is deliberately minimizing the death rates the same parent mismatch between the japanese own financial times estimates of 41000 plus deaths and the complete often quoted and continually cited 20000 odd death figure here in britain i think the government has had chance of the chance to demonstrate that it was going to be straight and open with the public and this thing about just giving out the hospital deaths each day and making nearly efforts so added in not just the

deaths in curbs but the deaths in people's homes that are taking place because people are not being referred to hospital and it's very likely that the total amount is somewhere between $45.50. and i think that part of the time this is over we could be looking at between 580-0000 deaths the government should be straight with us about this but specific me you don't think it was deliberate to double count p p a pair of gloves to pieces of b.p.a. or it was deliberate to take people from hospitals with coronavirus and put them in care homes without them being tested and i think one of the basic kind of propaganda tricks is to use numbers without making any real comparisons so you know we've seen over and over again the government says. and

they've been you know commissioning all over securing so many millions of items it just sounds like a big number but unless you can translate that into saying that each health worker has so many sets of p.p.a. a day or that the p.p.s. changed between seeing one patient and seeing the next patient it don't it's meaningless it's totally meaningless so all they seem to have been doing is just wanting to give an inflated big number because it sounds like a lot and it really is treating the public as children to behave in this way while another big number arguably perhaps health sector about hancock or it was when 60000 pounds to the relatives of dead frontline national health service staff you've tweeted that there is a comparison to be made perhaps behind the scene mary between $60000.00 pounds the families who've lost

a family member to corona. setting aside that it doesn't say whether this will be taxed or not the comparison i would make is that each member of parliament 650 of them have been given 10000 pounds to help them work from home that's 6 and a half 1000000 pounds if we accept the figure of 100 deaths of her health workers and social care workers so far 60000 pounds times 100 is 6000000 pounds so that's what they think they're worth they're think they're worth the same as giving the members of parliament presumably tax free $10000.00 pounds each to help them to work from home it really is pull all its you know and apart from the fact that they seem to be refused. to make any real count how many health workers

have actually died i was hearing yesterday that in one hospital in the london area there had been 10 deaths of doctors and nurses and in another hospital outside london there have been 8 if that's the sort of thing that's going all around the country then it sounds as though there's many more than 100 or even maybe 200 health workers in frontline workers who perish because of the incompetence of this of the management of this 100 well while there have been complaints about the 60000 not being paid as as is normal in the n.h.s. a pension or bereavement payments over time because obviously 60000 is not going to pay for every family and they and the children ongoing usually do welcome the fact that it appears the british government is not saying the $60000.00 is conditional on indemnification of boris johnson's ministers who are quite late or may be

criticised for negligence or their future public inquiry and i haven't seen any detail of this. $60000.00 pound figure so it's very difficult to know what it really means and bearing in mind that health workers who die in service to be in employed presumably from probably about 2 years or something will be entitled to a death in service benefits anyway they've the issue has been people who have come back and perhaps from retirement or from you know not being working regularly to meet the need or the this time of crisis and that group which may not be a huge number of people to offer them their families this compensation another big number of course is the 100000 test said day a self-imposed deadline by the health secretary. matt caulk is that another example

of this attempt at what you seem to be saying is public relations over public health well i think it's sleight of hand each time i mean we saw last week at sophie ridge trying to pin down michael girl of on this 100000 about whether this is 100000 capacity or whether it's 800000 tests actually turn and the prime minister himself heard indicated earlier that seward 50000 was what he was after which seems to have been dropped but it's my own view that to get the country back to work answer protects line health workers and to shield other people as well we really need to be doing maybe 3 or 400000 tests a day people who are out and about working people in the front line probably need to be tested each week and there's no sun stood here it's just again these big

numbers that they throw around that's explaining what it means in fairness durbar strangles 250000 pound failed target he of course previously said he shook hands with corona virus infected patients in hospital but then if you're talking about transparency would you recommend that the results of operation or exercise cygnus the 2016 pandemic exercise be published now because one of johnson's ministers in the past 24 hours said she wasn't even aware of what operation sickness was particularly and grab the foreign secretary said that he didn't spring to his mind whether key scientific advisors had the conclusions that were made after exercise cygnus showed that the n.h.s. could not cope properly with an influenza pandemic i think if the reports on operation cygnus from 2060. which. we've been told identified

a lot of weaknesses in our pandemic planning if that's had been in the public domain while parliament was sitting there and i think there'd been a lot of pressure to make sure that we were adequately adequately prepared that the contingency planning was in place that the saws of p.p. and testing and all of that was properly turn it's interesting you know that on this question of not being willing to publish documents piers morgan on good morning britain made the point that we're not fighting the nazis here we're fighting a virus there's no reason why this information should be secret everybody needs to know what the what the homework is that lies behind recommendations under device so that it can be properly discuss and critiqued you mention a few broadcasters here in britain but not the british broadcasting corporation say when they did b b c do you think they haven't done so well apart from the expose

a panorama which you were part of which showed. grave incompetence i mean you personally i understand complained to be made about to the faculty of public health are you being targeted yourself and you're being banned from the b.b.c. well it's a big question isn't this i mean what i would say is this after my appearances on newsnight and question time in the middle of march my invitations the b.b.c. dried up more or less completely and and i had an appointment that had been made and then i was stood down at the last minute and i've heard but small sympathetic gauge from sky regularly on channel 4 and i've got reason to believe that you know the b.b.c. is a little pressure and it's something which i've heard from colleagues of mine. and

i've been reading on social media i worry about the state of the b.b.c. in this political environment and just finally what threats to his staff very briefly because and i just start have been threatened we understand with talking to the media we have been able to find one medical practitioner who was part of excise cygnus who can even tell us about the secret conclusions well but you know during the last 2 or 3 months i've done a lot of media interviews and i've been told repeatedly by journalists newspaper journalists i don't live media here as of the difficulty they've had in getting interviews not just with clerical workers in the health service but with my colleagues directors of public health that i've heard through them that they've been instructed that they have to have anything they wish to say to the media clear which is against the tradition of public health public health is

a discipline which has been to to speak up on public health matters of interest and it is a freedom that was fought for for a 100 years during the victorian period under stablish in the u.k. about the right for public health people to speak out on things they were both about president lashon that their. thank you after the break with the u.s. u.k. link dices diocese in syria warning conscripts the gates travel to europe because of coronavirus we investigate the legacy of the u.s. funded inspiration for some of in love with and how decisions by russia's mikhail gorbachev turned into a global force to be reckoned with all the civil coming up about to going underground. as a us economy was booming growing numbers of people were made homeless. you can work 40 hours 'd in a week and still not have enough to get housing everybody believes america still is

the land of opportunity the reality of it is we're not financially equality and a lack of affordable housing for a living minimum wage gave many people new choice. that's been a problem with the city knows turn around and told to stay away i don't hold this. concerted effort is no answer because yes that requires the source the most vulnerable are abandoned on the streets to become the invisible comes. we go to work. straight home.

welcome back in the past 48 hours israel one of britain's top markets for weapons areally bombarded civilians in syria and while doris jones. it has not been repeating his support for bombing the country british wing tice's day as commanders have told recruits to steer clear of europe because of coronavirus donald trump more reluctant to attack damascus is this week said to retreat from the u.s.a.'s longest war afghanistan maybe read the care of abdullah azzam of the rise of global jihad which details u.s. support for islam as its and the life of one particular communist to come by the anti semitism with hatred for che guevara and marxism we caught up with the author the norwegian defense research establishment dr thomas had gamma and i began by asking him about the continuing threat of terrorism as corona virus kills many more

than any i jacked plane the global jihadi movement is still alive and well i mean we've always been through a period of the 56 years of incredibly high levels of activity especially in the middle east but also in the form of terrorism in the west with 6 to 700. people killed in western countries and although i says is much weaker now than 2 or 3 years ago there are still many groups out there that are active and even isis is still hanging in there well thankfully there were reports that this day i should told there were operatives to deliver europe one of the epicenters of the pandemic who is a dollar as we met with osama bin laden in indianapolis in a $79.00 when the u.s. was funding what would become of course the group that destroyed the world trade

center on 911 so abdullah azzam is not very well known in the west because he died early died in 1909 but in the world of jihadism he is a superstar he's basically that che guevara of jihadism he was a palestinian religious cleric who is famous for mobilizing the so-called. arab afghans in the 1980 s. and these were basically foreign fighters who came from all over the muslim world to fight with the afghan mujahideen against the soviet occupation and this afghan jihad in the 1980 s. is basically the big bang of jihadism it's at this point in time that the movement really expands and goes international and adela zam played an extraordinarily important role in making that happen i'll get on to his hatred of jacob are in

a 2nd but was he on the cia's radar intelligence services radar because you say the from 1901 he repeatedly traveled to the united states he traveled to new york texas california seattle in washington state and he came to the united states to to preach against the u.s.s.r. that's right so i think that as arm was on the cia's radar. he certainly was in the late eighty's because i've spoken to some of the cia operatives who were in. pakistan at the time there is no evidence that the cia directly dealt with him that they supported him with money or armies or anything like that there is a there's this sort of famous this sort of narrative about the afghan jihad that it was a kind of a silly mistake that the united states did they kind of they created al qaeda and then al qaeda hit them back this is the so-called blowback theory but that's kind

of this is very gross simplification because the cia didn't support bin ladin or azzam or these these foreign fighters who became al-qaeda what the got what the u.s. did was to support the afghan mujahideen and they did so with lots of money and weapons but no resources were. and to the to the people who then founded al qaeda with the blowback theory is a little bit misleading in my view but at the same time you can understand that there would be people in the united states who could favor him he authored a book i understand it called the red can. a not only anti semitic but i think communist tome full of tropes against marxism and so forth he got into trouble did he for the communism from palestinian authority yes that's right but in america he operated completely freely the united states was in the 1980 s.

perhaps the world's most hospitable recruiting ground for g. hardy's and that's because. the u.s. government basically didn't care about people going around recruiting and mobilizing for the afghan jihad because they were supporting the same effort they were on the same side as it where we have to bear in mind of course also that at this point in time nobody you know realized or had really had reason to do to see what was coming there had been no sunni islamist terrorist attacks in the west until that point and nobody kind of. had an inkling that you know foreign fighters these sort of war volunteers might one day become become a problem and this inspiration for rose i'm a big large he he hated moscow he hated che guevara

views that align themselves with reagan's foreign policy say in nicaragua or in el salvador abdullah azzam like many other islamists at the time and before that or in the in the sixty's and seventy's and eighty's they were very hostile to communism or even all forms of sort of. secular leftism this islamists hatred for communism was of a different kind had different sort of. a different origin than the one we would find in in america or in europe at the time it had very little to do with geopolitics it was seen much more as a as a kind of a cultural threat as a as a basically a net and of a challenge to the sort of indigenous values in the middle east which the islamist thought should be based on islam and communism came with explicit

secularism and was therefore seen as a as a threat to them which obviously was a feeling in near liberal countries use the allegation that the cia created as it were al-qaeda as you as you were saying earlier so the u.k. you say. basically they help with weapons rather than actual direct training i mean there were reports here of training camps in northern england for al qaeda for you it is the supply of weapons more than any great creation directly by the cia or yeah i mean there is no evidence of western intelligence services being in direct and sustained contact with arab fighters in afghanistan but it's it was not the afghan mujahideen who later went on to attack america outside of outside of afghanistan that was al qaeda and the arabs are the laws arm for example i have him on the record as saying in the late eighty's that you know we're here fighting. a

war against the soviet union but really america is the greater enemy but of course . there is an element of blowback here too because some of the afghan mujahedeen later become became vicious enemies of the american troops in afghanistan so for example someone like gelatine haqqani received. support from the cia in the 1980 s. and the so-called haqqani network became a lethal enemy for the u.s. military in afghanistan well according to many the network indeed pose a problem today how big of a morale boost was it when mikhail gorbachev. we drew his troops withdrew the russian troops from afghanistan was that really what paved the way for the success that those in al-qaeda later would say was the events of $911.00 yeah it was a huge morale bus is probably the high point in the history modern history of

jihadism they've defeated a superpower and they were they felt that they were now ready to take on all these other you know enemies of obvious lom that's kind of ironic as far as the foreign fighters like bin laden are concerned because they didn't do very much in the. victor soviet union it was the afghans themselves who expelled the soviet union not not the arabs but still people like bin laden kind of they going to use or appt that victory but i think i would say that more important because of kind of al qaeda rising and growing international. was that of dollars zam had basically undermined. the ability for any leaders in the islamist movement to control these jihadi group groups when he wanted people to come to afghanistan to fight he told them come and wage jihad don't listen to anyone don't listen to your

parents or your local in months just come and fight jihad and in saying so he basically undermined authority in islam and what he what happened was that groups like al qaeda then went on to do more radical things international terrorism suicide bombings against civilians and nobody could control them it didn't matter anymore what the moms or religious scholars were saying they just wouldn't listen to them because they had been told not to listen to anyone. well there's been a lot of allegations about british united states' involvement with islamists in syria today can you just tell me how u.s. aid was somehow used to spread jihad is propaganda this is when bin laden and we're travelling to the united states school books printed offering anti semitic and jihadist propaganda and yes there's a different element in the us

a this in the americans or aid agency was indeed. used. in the afghanistan war to. basically provide military or at least non-lethal military. support this happened by the way on all sides the publications you mentioned earlier there was another initiative. and it was actually it actually involved the university of nebraska they were basically hired to. provide school books for. afghans during the war and were designed to kind of stoke anti soviet. sentiment in the afghan population and this was a u.s. government initiative one of the united states are supporting the mujahideen in

afghanistan and gorbachev was giving a morale boost to jihadists by were drawing soviet troops from afghanistan china of course was backing pakistan and of course we all found out the official explanation from washington is azzam of bin laden was found and killed in pakistan what happened to a builder on the 24th of november one $1809.00 why was he killed who killed him so that day dollars arm was on his way to deliver the friday sermon in the. so called arab mosque in the shower and just as he was pulling. off the main street to park in front of the mosque a bomb went off under his car killing him and his 2 sons and it remains the biggest murder mystery in the history of islam is the pakistani authorities did an investigation but the findings were never published and there was no kind of clear

candidate and the mystery remains unsolved to this day so i've called this incident to the john f. kennedy assassination of the islamist movement my prime suspect is the pakistani intelligence service i.s.i. . but i don't have solid evidence and i'm open to the possibility that it was someone else so we'll just have to wait and see if any kind of new information comes out in the years and decades ahead thomas agama thank you that was dr thomas had gabber in the caravan abdullah azzam of the rise of global jihad is out now that's it for the show will be back on saturday 9 years to the day u.s. special forces assassinated u.s. backed al qaeda leader osama bin laden and his son khalid both living here pakistan's top military academy in abbottabad until then wash your hands and don't forget join the underground you tube twitter sound about instagram and facebook.

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