it. was your. own welcome to worlds apart most of us agreed that desperate times call for desperate measures but did they also call for desperate leader he's my guest today argues that while the same executives are well suited for good times and just mind needed the vast country they were rainy day how saul well to discuss that i'm now joined by dr and i see i got me a professor of psychiatry at tufts university and

a back selling author. to talk to you thank you very much for your time. thanks for inviting me now you are joining us from. austin area which has been under water. and it's a funny question to ask if i buy a house same thing you are obese point on this scale oak once it's not. how saying that you said yeah yeah how same yours are recent saying are safe from me they're both amusing yeah well they're related to you and. i would say this on sanity i would say on a scale one that's and i'm probably an 8 right now and that's a pretty high and the reason i'm asking is because in 2011 you published and very counter-intuitive looks at jaffrey being a bit unstable especially at on be a manic depressive rant has its advantages at its time of the time of crisis now i

know that you will close is primarily a political leaders but i wonder if one can observe this pain a fact in lay people to carry find follows that you know our depression and our restlessness may actually make. batteries think areas are bad decision makers in times of uncertainty yes so might my book a 1st rate madness which i published back then as you know that was really trying to understand what are the benefits of having some psychiatric conditions a focus on manic depression and i think the show showed that there were some traits that were more present in depressed people like realism of empathy and more traits some traits present in many people creativity and resilience to stress and i think point brought this out in leaders but i do think it applies to regular persons like you say you know time of crisis like now for instance it might be in some ways easier for someone who's had depression to be able to manage staying at home all

the time and not having much to do because when they're depressed that's the way they feel it's more of a shock to someone who's normal mentally healthy and has never had that experience or point is sad perpetually manic i think him that exact thing a lot. right through with many oh it's you know this is defined it really means being sped up in your thinking movement and feeling it's the opposite of depression or your slow down so america person is always highly active and doing lots of things and very sociable and and and out there and to be in a room or a house by yourself is the opposite of what america person would normally do now in your book you may have an argument at the very qualities that marty doe's with will does or also provide for a better executive's function specifically in times of how exactly does it work. so there are those 4 traits that i described which really i think make up

a psychological recipe for great crisis leadership being more realistic and empathic than most people that's from the depression and being creative and resilient that's from the mania and so when you look at great historical leaders like winston churchill. john kennedy franklin roosevelt you see in these people that they have these traits they either have a full blown manic depressive illness or bipolar illness as call or they have these traits as part of their personality all the time a little bit an example would be churchill who had very severe depressions and during the 1930 s. the most famous wilderness years as he called it when he was out of political power and nobody listened to him he was very depressed but at the same time was extremely realistic about the nazi threat while almost all politicians of all spectra in anyone's really were in denial about it and i think that's an example of where the depression brings out the realism that makes you a great in who you are now you are now on the fairies. you know that maybe sex ask

people i'm mentally unstable and perhaps it's that i'm in mental illness that powers them through but i think many psychologists these days leave that it is a compound satori a coping adaptive mechanism will learn this children and that mechanism has to be dispensed with if one wants to be happy and how he you know a content in his own adult skin tastes and are you arguing otherwise. i am i am i am not the 1st person to describe this the 1st person was there a sato and he described very well as fame one of his famous questions when he asked why is it that all great men in politics poetry and philosophy have melancholia but yeah i'm saying something different and some things that i've seen not only in general but also in some of the interviews you've done with other psychiatrist

oksana or people's heart about how symptoms are bad and symptoms are a problem i'm actually saying the opposite i'm saying the symptoms are good and the illness is not and the illness is actually helpful in some way when the symptoms are severe they can be disabling and deadly but they also have a positive i have to say i am very partial to a psychologist and psychiatrist in fact i've been into t.v. myself over the last couple of weeks by reading a lot of the union and alchemical as psychology at each talks a lot about prima materia base that cave is the crap to in our psyche outweighs the refined substance or gold as they refer to it is produced but i guess to most people may be had that being a bit crazy is good isn't it south a bit crazy how has your blog been received. well probably for that reason is been received positively and negatively i think the positive reaction has been has

been actually frankly much bigger than i expected and very heartwarming i think there are a lot of people that they read the book and it clicks for them that they really 1st read madness and they have the same intuitions and i just explain for them why it makes sense that there are other people who for whatever reason have a very harsh negative reaction to it and they take it almost as a personal attack if i were to say that if you're mentally healthy the you are maybe not as good at some things as someone who's not mentally ill while in here and you specifically said that if you're mentally healthy you may not be as good at making us basically be a leader as somebody who is. mentally unstable or mentally control like. a crisis leader now i did make with an important distinction there's 2 kinds of leadership crisis leadership and non crisis leadership that i'm talking about in non-crisis leadership when things are stable and there's peace and prosperity in

the past predicts the future and you just have to make the trains run on time a mentally healthy person is a better leader but in crisis periods when you need creativity and risk taking and a different way of thinking those mentally healthy leaders as you're not as good as these men have now there is a row now i rumors are circulating on the internet dad mike milbury became president chance actually chief of staff that he earliest white house kerry stewart read your book have you been able to confirm whether it's joe i'm not well i haven't looked into it myself in but i and the rumor of this is that the idea comes from the spoke by jonathan karl front row the trump show and karl has his sources that this was the case and i would trust the sources i think it's that i have no reason to disbelieve it i think one thing we can take away from that is someone very close to the president. saw him and one of the same lines of what i've been saying which is that i think he has mild manic traits you know these kinds of

manic type symptoms of being high energy yes very high physical and sexual energy is well known he doesn't sleep much he's very talkative he has excessive self-esteem which you can call narcissism if you like these are all classic medic's traits which we call high person i mean over the clinical trial that i described in my book and i it's interesting to see that someone close to him saw a resident resident perhaps but he's also somebody who makes an impression on him very resilient tourists and the way he responds big criticism i think he has some very very mixed can and as you point out in your book resilience is. most often associated with an early trauma i mean you need to have a trauma as a sort of that seems to allow you to develop resilience and you are seeing you in some jazz that you know doesn't show depressive symptoms but i mean how would you know what he is like when he is on on his own if he is wrong with himself.

yeah and you can't know for sure you know we should probably point out that the american psychiatric association has a goldwater rule which is that you should not make public statements about safety at rick judgments public so you're a member of that group and we've debated this in their meetings and i don't agree with it and there's a substantial minority of members of the a.p.a. that don't agree with my rationale is that there are some objective publicly known facts that you can make judgments about as long as you're going to get any politically neutral kind of way so in the case of present trump if for instance we can just say that the assumption that he's not a cross there's your baseline he says he's not ok is not but that's a disadvantage in my view because then he would be less realistic and less empathic than might otherwise be and i think that's what we do see a measure with us well actually even me perfectly to my next question because i

would understand why people around trying to explain the political expedience here compare him to winston churchill or john kennedy abrogating lincoln you know when you describe in your book and all our beliefs you have had. many depressive symptoms is it the manic pari or the depressive party that has most us act on that decision making. well i think they both can have a fax it depends on. what to what the symptoms of that person actually are and what the decisions are so the manic part will make you creative so for instance franklin roosevelt used to say of winston churchill that he had a sow's an ideas a day 4 of which were good so those 4 good ideas are helpful other depressive part makes you realistic or empathic so many tastes of every hamlet him for instance you have a great deal of empathy for african-american slaves which other people didn't. and that influenced his political decision making in that way and that history also

knows me examples of magnetic examples i should say of magic depressives which he play is probably the most prominent and in your book you suggest next larry if i understood your correctly was essentially stripped down be pretty tacky at powers of his mental illness by the end catchments reach here where it was found on the continuous basis throughout the war does that mean that hitler's crimes are not only his but at least in part his dark targets. yes so you know as you can see this brings us into some very controversial area that i should probably just put out there 1st that everything i'm saying is my own opinion and doesn't reflect the views of my employers at all so that's. when i need to make when we get to hitler and i think the there are a lot of questions and there are a lot of people that want to believe that there's especially in germany it's that

schiller can't have been abnormal in any way because then you can't blame him for what he did and that's not necessarily the case you know we know and in the law that someone can still be held liable for a crime even if they have a mental illness so we should put that out there and in the case of drugs what's interesting is that hitler had a very severe depression from late childhood adolescence onwards it's been pretty well established by contemporary memoirs and he had been between the depressive after the press i was so scared manic periods where he really high energy for weeks and months on and then talkative. and he got treated for the depressions in the mid 1930 s. without sodomy which were new at the time and the very 1st class of antidepressant treatments probably then felonies as they can make you manic they didn't know that at the time and he got the drugs not orally in pills like churchill to intervene explain the injection every single day when he woke up in the morning from 1937 until the day you die and if you get intravenous and fed to me every day and you

have bipolar illness i think the average psychiatrist would know that that's going to make you a whole lot worse basically is going to make you manic and can also make you delusional and psychotic it's very probable that the gradual change of hitler and that went on have some relationship to that treatment dr i mean we have to take a short break now but we don't get back in just a few moments. you

cannot be vulgar with yet you like. the world is driven by a dream or else shaped by one person of those words. in a day or so thinks. we dare to ask. our.

welcome back to worlds apart great doctor and that's the argonne me the author all madness i'm covering billings between larry shemp and mental illness dr got me as i mentioned before your book was published in 2011 before the election though donald trump who many psychologists describe as well let's call it mentally centric and he clearly as you sat has he's manic trade he's definitely not the you know i'm erica president do you think his uniqueness serves america well ad time of unprecedented and so. well you know my general thesis was that america across a leader is helpful in a crisis but is not helpful in a non-crisis period and i think trump was elected in 2016 when we were not in a crisis i think his problem in the last 3 years was once things were fine he was causing a lot of. instability in trouble in

a way by messing around with there is aspects of the political economic system that actually had been functioning on and that led to a lot of conflict in division in the country. now that we're in a crisis you would think that maybe he'd be in a position to do well but his problem in my view is that he's manic and not depressed in other words he's somewhat mentally abnormal not abnormal enough to actually. want it so. yes it's it's see i think this claim that when people say he's mentally eccentric as you said often it comes from a political motivation but i also heard you say that the president did not respond what you called realistically to be coronavirus and make and i'm not sure anyone in the world actual media 3 have a 3rd of the global population on their various forms of lockdowns all while the if you give me only just around the world i still debating the wisdom hope it's total

quarantine i mean that i think there is agreement that i really have to be isolated by. you know the fact of putting everybody and locking up everybody in their homes it is still highly debated isn't it actually proven to be skeptical about issues like that especially because they entailed such huge economic and psychological that minutes well certainly the massive long term social club quarantine as a social experiment that we've never had before and so there's certainly reasons to . be uncertain about it but let me make you give another concept here psychologists say that normal mental health involves what they call mild positive illusion that means the normal mentally healthy person is a little bit unrealistic and in normal life that's a good thing in a way because we're a little optimistic and we truly try things we might not otherwise and try and work out but when you're a leader in a crisis there is no room for unrealism so when this pandemic started

a month or 2 ago the normal mentally healthy of the leaders had a little unrealism to and therefore they didn't respond us quickly as the should have but i'm leader with some manic traits. is even less realistic and then is even more in denial and i think that's what we see now motivating denial of what i mean there is a difference between an. being a senator well i mean these folks with her credit card you know we should all exhibit a healthy dose of skepticism there's a difference between quarantine skeptics and science skeptics for example where you can be a skeptical requirements and what the scientific reasons especially when you have a virus breach. i'm sure you were a you know that already had the majority of carriers play no symptoms at all on mild symptoms and the wisdom of halting the entire economy reach where it was one big democrats are calling for you know is highly questionable and you can also

question whether they really ask for that out of the goodness of their hearts or out of their experience for the population pressure absent being motivated by certain political considerations 50000 people have died this is a very serious thing and i think that the realism. is maybe going to be more clear with time but most my view would be that earlier action would have been better and he was certainly very slow it's the other thing that i would point out is empathy which is not a depressive trait which he has not shown much of the washington post recently did analysis of his 13 hours of his press the briefings in which he spent about 2 hours . attacking political opponents president trond acting in good exhibits signs of a narcissistic personality and as i'm sure you would agree have of be narcissism that isn't very highly correlated with most southworth not sure narcissists are not unlock with themselves they actually hate themselves think it's

a good practice to constantly seek to put people lie don't all chomp down all the time then weigh the prize emera contrast that is all that that even you know and the trend of the kind of damage i am not putting him down completely is i'm saying i think yes positive traits in terms of creativity and resilience manic traits and for instance is having all these press briefings the. is a reflection of stamina leases and i think that was and intends to do something positive and has some positive impact. and he did break some rules for instance with the with the who rational bill where he was essentially giving social welfare benefits to people which goes against the consumer and as keep close to fly while it was an absolute no go i mean seriously what he did that unless it was an absolutely and then after mature everybody around him and i and they and they turned out to be a wise little yeah we didn't cause

a fly syrup very quickly but there's and there's pros and there's cons and i do think that also i don't take the perspective that his narcissistic which is a larger discussion i think the concept comes from a psychoanalytic way of thinking which may or may not be correct and which has scientific weaknesses as well as some strengths my perspective is more biological in manic traits are inherited and you know you can have excessive self esteem as part of that you call a narcissism if you like it may or may not have anything to do with experiences and childhood we just recently knew offer a theory based hand avril's and how to survive it and that may and what about was a low limit on the watching and likely presidential press conferences is that a psychological or political advice. well i say. my politics don't agree with his that's a personal assumed but psychologically i think it's not helpful to people to be

watching things that are really just a matter of opinion i also said you shouldn't watch cable opinion use either righty i think that all that does is 'd make people more anxious and. i recommend of the people watching news news not opinion news what about down our government and governor andrew cuomo who was conferences are just as likely would you advise americans of new yorkers against watching those great great things as well. that's a good question i personally have not been watching the. his press conferences the clips i've seen of them have been impressive but. i haven't watched them enough to be able to give you a good answer to. have. i saw that you wrote recently that the challenge for america and the world is to be about we not me and i actually think that a president trying time governor governor cuomo present day so rare example of that they seem to be more accommodating and more respectful of one another than the

customer is acting in the in the united states business there's definitely last nastiness to their interactions doesn't that. a mortal or how do you work with a lab reach a person that you dislike for the sake of let's say either people or for the sake of your country. now slowly i mean i think that the divisions that we've had over the last few years which have worsened because of the current president's leadership are things that we need to get over and i think it's something that we have to do with more empathy towards each other which as i said is not a common normal psychological trait i think and may also be a practical. and useful example for many of us who are stuck at home with people a lot but not necessarily like all the time i think the proximity of the last few weeks has been a very overbearing and now a days we all need this. disassociate from the immediate and the personal and sort

of the a larger picture and broader meaning would you agree with that. oh yes definitely i mean i think one of the benefits of the corn scene and we should be looking for some silver linings is that you know it's an opportunity for growth for personal growth as well as social growth you know how we react to the crisis is going to determine who we will become and the one place we can go is to reconnect more with our immediate family and with our friends in a way that we didn't when we were distracted by the usual activities of life here a lot from my friends now is that while during the price you weeks they were very motivated to get things they never had time for nowadays maney experience apathy the demotivation lower energy without necessarily being action is a worry of how can people deal with big corral

a system agency waited out or tried here or over time of in some other way. right one of the there are 2 big problems that have been found inside a psychological studies of quarantines in the past and that is boredom and anxiety and anxiety least touched on boredom i think is sort of what you're talking about and what we lose with not having the usual this calling germans i got hers time universe of life you know getting up and going to work at the same time having school at the same time and so on we lose the structure to our lives and now we have to provide a structure ourselves and so it's important even though you're at home even though you're working like you are now from home and i am that you get up and start working at a certain time and stop working at a certain and try to keep some of that structure going otherwise it's easy to feel disorganized or at loosens now dr ghani many psychologists say these days that

social distancing doesn't have to mean social isolation and i think many of us have seen our comedic ation rich family and friends intensified and yet as one of my friends remarked recently there is a lot of talking but there is not enough communion and i think she was referring to based presents these accounts crabs and. people that we missed a lot of without it life feels very mediate it rather than real do you understand what i'm talking about. you know on the one hand we should be thankful for the fact that we have this quarantine at a time when we have this technology that we do such as the video conversation we're having now if this had happened 20 years ago i'm not sure how the world would have handled it but i'm sure 20 years ago it wouldn't have happened to anchor ara this is a relatively new concept that for the sake of a limited group of people we have to write everybody that never happened before not

for this length of time prior quarantines were a couple weeks long at most with ebola for instance and so on. but you know you could argue that maybe if we had the capacity it should have been done in 1900 with the flu pandemic. but the bottom line is that the digital technology does help part of the way but there's a lot of research for instance that you can summarize in a way by saying that non-verbal communication is about half of all communication and that's what we're missing and that's what you can't really have unless you're increasingly with someone else. well i mean we have to leave it here but thank you very much for sharing your. thoughts. and thank you for watching state safe state sane and i hope you next week on worlds apart.

we go to work so you straight home. as we have said from the very beginning russia gate is a hoax and from there is no evidence to prove in what explains trans flip flop on

the iran nuclear deal. we have the resources. and you know already we're out of the current you know we have the compression and we. run our right to bear.