hello and welcome the cross-talk where all things are considered uncontrollable 75 years ago the scourge of bashes them was defeated in europe the soviet union and its western allies were big taurus what is the meaning of that victory today what explains recent efforts to rewrite history and what it counts for the efforts to diminish the sacrifice made by the peoples of the soviet union. this and more i'm joined by my guest underneath me good on ya and he's a professor at moscow state institute of international relations and in ottawa we crossed him paul robinson he is a professor of history at the university of ottawa and author of numerous books and russian and history original macross up rules in effect that means you can jump i

mean what i was. going to fall for is that in a lot of well obviously this pandemic here is cancel the press their bodies in russia on the 70 good banner verse 3 of the end of the 2nd world war in europe in the end. but the spirit here is still very much alive and how is that spirit changed in your mind because i think it's fair to say that the big 3 in 1045 reenergize the legitimacy of communist rule in the soviet union and that in that maintained that was maintained that it was me all the way when it's taken out and i think even more important residents in post soviet russia in 202070 years back and i would attribute it to you as protecting russia from a very hostile and sure you want world and that's certainly the kind of world we're living in right now. it's certainly true that there's been a very strong revival of memories of the 2nd decade or so i think it's close

and such as the origin of the much this row people carry the pictures of their ancestors of. i think about 10 years ago maybe even less and it's a much an indication of. a circle almost bottom up. it's not very often it's described. western commentators as being pushed down from the regime it's not it's not that it's not say the regime has not could insult the head of this. is not exploiting it and using it but it is but it's not an original. russian equal to whom is not so strong resonance you know underneath i think it would poles point about the immortal regiments a very important here because. actually it's only been like 3 or 4 years it's much

less than 10 and working in r.t.e. the number of my russian friends that send me pictures of their grandparents that were in the 2nd world war and asking if i could get it into a promotion or a film or a documentary that we may be making in our teahouse i think that's really remarkable paul point is really very important because it really is a groundswell and i still think it attribute that to a hostile world but at the same time it's a very interesting way to keep families together when we live in a time of majority were families are countless pressure on breaking them up all the time so it's a very interesting mechanism to look back at your family lineage and let's face it russian history in the last 100 years is been trying more to us say the least but that's one thing that they hang onto are their families go ahead under a new. yeah i think that the problem has 1st of all every family

had terrible losses during world war and 2nd you know not a dairy gmo was the victoria and that's why the lorry never or almost conceded that it took the apache hill to ignore. going back to the you know the word with napolitano which means this was a kind of. the problem of survival of the nation survival of the country my father was. you know one of the participants in 9 import you are on your last right here near where i am living now in prague and to iraq at the outskirts of moscow there was i'd enjoy. for every family it still has a very significant meaning because it's not just a memory it is something which would just recently touch only when we can still

touch participants all of this is story of events which was of course iran in russian history which was full of manage your know war as turmoil and different kind of thing this was the biggest this was. really. its heart all of the forget if you are so ignored it is something very very important that's right and another problem is might be and i agree. with your i think you know you mentioned that we are living in a very specific situation a bit more than soviet union collapsed. and then you are now there was a reassessment are all historical events rash i was very awake in the ninety's. the year now there is a saying famous saying i don't know where i read that history is the modern day

politics india or apply to the events in the past which may lead to the political situation is changing some country. becoming stronger sound tragedy a week earlier and this is exactly the time based on current politics. to reassess where is no winner who is no longer under terrible hour when nobody was even questioning today or all of soviet union after 9 days and especially when our liberal thoughts well you know who are down there to question our victories. our sacrifices their. nature are underage and put you know nowadays comparisons there not to gentlemen and soviet union and stalin and hitler both did

create it and merit and now unfortunately it yet tanked to get out of this mess again with you know paul i mean plan that was brought up here because that is a function of the idea neo liberal ideology today is to conflate nazi germany in the soviet union ok and i would attribute much of that to is that in very simple words as a russian it doesn't bend the knee to the washington consensus and because of that and other reasons we will deny the historical significance the meaning of victory over bashes when europe or what the russian people primarily but the other peoples of the soviet union contributed to it's an ideological thing and it's them they're the ones that are being an ideological not russia russia is respecting historical facts. it's certainly true. that there's a lot of little allan's in arms moves this year in the way history and the stories he gets it reflect the current political desirous i don't think is just

neo liberals or the seniors that suit up complaints and union nazi germany coming. through or saying it's a little. in the us just in terms of historical studies it dates back to. writing. this story but it's also people like timothy snyder who has various blogs who is very much union i'm not suggesting he is not more alas. right if it's generally a desire to. 7 sensibly keep fighting the cold war and it is related to geopolitics and to so groups are typically like diaspora groups who are interested in. every part but that's it but the result is the same if it's to deny the peoples of the i say my words very carefully the peoples

of the soviet union the sacrifice they me it's people like snyder that wants to make it political and ideological i don't see that in 2020 in her how the war is commemorated here i see a wide variety of issues the one thing that is missing is ideology and i think people like snyder and i think he's a shyster lawyer historian personally because i think what he does is a historical and he wants to just driving a political point but you go yeah i mean. i think it is far more political among those other people but it would be among russians. who are after all you know brits. more and mr de sac wars is just as large and grim really cities as in russia. but there are definitely people who are using as the who curse as we saw this it improv our risk taking down all monuments it is

a soviet marshal who grip the city center nicobar and one in the city the rush of the british nothing which is the collaboration of general. downie well there is a vigil was so you might imagine if you look up the glass up on you and why are you doing out we are doing now as a russian. it's a troll rush it is not mean it's already mistreated start the wine appear like there's parents who explained that gen is real quickly ok so i think it's a general communist threat who was the marshal in charge at the front and he was replaced by. needing a place by our side just replaced by a monument to general russel when our 2 general assets of the russian liberation army which was the army formed by the germans from russia lost their collaborator currently in the same nasser so he took the serbian my mother and our elaborate.

very psystar reasoning for this in that the russians the collaborationists russian army. the very last sentence source which sides with us non german troops and. writes for the claim can historically be made a. lot that's not all of a sleight of hand here and when i find really interesting. and the leak is it the whole cold war narrative about the ending of the 2nd world war actually whitewash is a lot of the bury your aisle and nasty right wing fascist groups in eastern europe because after 145 there just ok but that is the intentional way of turning away from the internal politics of all of these countries that have had

parties even. governments and that is a whitewash right there and then they they turn it on to russia where has no historical basis and are under any go ahead before we go to the break or you notice that this is very important the problem here is that unfortunately it many european nations and there where part of it where coalition against soviet union and. instead of feeling to guilt for participating in this great bottles are not wrong side of history now they are trying to put the blame on soviet union and now on russia dead because surely a union is guilty and have the same responsibility for it all the great all the war that's what they are trying to deprive. and who you know.

to parachute from delegitimized. i'm going to jump in here we've got to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion and bigotry in your 75 years on stay with r.t. . we saw through at the police so the need for good in each other than the human body . but on the but i'm going to the book on the soul that this isn't just. the emotional learning t.m. must go if you will still be stuck or you muscles from the course for me which resists him but if i should use a sloth could. feel the church. before

going into business to confession that. we think he minds be soldier to peace off the boots he's wearing. to church so the soul looks to move the apostle opinion more than with like about the sure stuff in the summarizing the police force sort of us hold. my ground. and i thought i was. part of the way. or.

welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm hearing about your mind you were discussing the end of the 2nd. war in europe. ok let's go back to the poem arwa it's very interesting i've noticed you know on the edges here there's this an intentional process to delete the legitimize the soviet victory in the 2nd war i'm a car i'm a conservative i don't like communism i lived in eastern europe during communist in the 1980 s. my my ideological degree is conservative because i'm not the right conservative because i'm so in 1945 b.

the only elbow you had to what would become 2 great rivals it wasn't necessarily true at the time shaking of the hands so if we speed up to the last few years i think all of you and many of our viewers know the world at war series that i think came out in 1901 in the u.k. and it's in my mind it's one of the greatest documentaries series ever made about the 2nd world war and if you look at you too slowly but surely there deleting and wiping away those episodes are still here and there but there seems to be consistent effort to persistent effort to even take away documentaries i mean it can see it was made in the early seventy's that documentary could never be made in 2020 because of the international situation here why is that the case because history is supposed to be history right go ahead paul history is not just history history it's a subjective interpretations and that's oceans on. them. as

a national story and i endeavor to be objective but of course i company entirely no no no nobody is for it it is inevitable. the it stations you get. the car. international climate. i think in part because c e sexual animosity has become so important in russia because the russian government has attached to it right if it follows that if you want to do to devise the russian government you have to deal with it myself. i mean it is all ok if you don't you know you are this is not logical next politically but in the process here do you deal with generalizing the the genuine interest and aspirations of the

average russian in the average russian family in their relationship to the past so i mean it is you're right there is i don't think it is regarded as i think the view of you know much that a distorted view the us. that may. sound that so you. do not as a variable june 2nd world war i mean. it after all. are. delicious. to say yes when they did their own what it did so it is a nazi face i mean this is. massive. so i think that there is there is some concern which is not entirely legitimate that some racial grow in. so what watches these i mean i mean and so this is while washing going on on both sides here i mean if you want to go down that path in you know why was president bombed

ok the dropping of the atomic weapons on japan i mean you know we could go on and on and that's called what about what about is ok but i don't think it gets us really anywhere there underneath one of the things in with this touched on just disrespect and we touched on it is really it's not really about the outcome of the 2nd world war it's really the origins of the 2nd world war about invoking this beside her character it end. sighing oh you how be it the nazi soviet pact display $939.00 that's their exhibit a all of the time they don't like to mention that just about every country in europe in eastern europe oh and in 1034 i'm not aggression nazi germany that's not brought up because it's inconvenient ok oh it's inconvenient it was western powers that broke the state of czechoslovakia in unix ok all of these things are never mentioned ok they just look at the protocols are the protocols dastardly over you they are because the international system had collapsed and it was

a rock it was everyone was grabbing for what they could poland during the partition a check was about due to their pound of flesh from late for the failed state of czech was like it which the western powers turned into when my point is you know if you really want to go into the nitty gritty we can go into the nitty gritty but i would like to see the meaning of the 2nd world war as a unifying these people because their ideologically possessed want to use it is the debates of and i think that's tragic because a lot of people die. i think that in russia when a lot of you know both coming out of concern and the beginning of the 2nd world war and many of them reasonable in mentioning the alternative is where the turbulent times and a lot of never since the end of her 1st world war never really the

war ended which means that i put forward the idea of prevention and this 3 venue was the bishop for a gentleman's policy and the policy of many other countries italian or when i was india then italian german or against republican. then your mention and then partition czechoslovakia and a lot of polish participation in this process all this again there are the who are then jump on a china all these are you know nadal amongst all that chain of events which eventually brought so there's great war when nazi germany invaded so if you want which mince it is

oversimplification. you know just don't mention all of the remender all boxed under the result partition is done here or part or they started europe or was taken power back this is very shallow and arthur right a position does one thing i want to mention as i started this. really because nobody. interested in historical facts because politics is the basic. basics for an assessment of what happened how it happened what are the consequences of all this events the problem is in mind this rash of was very weak or a turn off country and now are ashes again and is this position of one of the

major actors in the world politics exactly this is what in the west and in washington and in european capitals. they don't like to see they look don't like and they don't want to accept rather than equal power as the continue their of soviet union as the country or the victorious country and who has very young. russia has something important to say and this is the rational position and russia is my business one of 2 or 2 real short inconscious in the world what they like this couldn't russia's position and russia policy. you know in the poll one of the things i'm glad we kind of went to the origin see her and i think it really started out on the i mean if you look at international relations theory and we've already

heard mentioned you know and i think that's really i think a lot of people say that the the beginning of the the short 20th century year that ended in 1901 in the end of the soviet union but it was it was a failed international system and i when i get really angers me is because the soviet union was a communist state and it was a pariah state was treated as a pariah state for almost the entire time in the interwar period until the war started in entirely is that it was. in international system based on our western countries ok it was a failed one the 1st side settlement was rowsley in adequate and i think most people most historians would say obviously it was the seeds for the 2nd woman world war you can even go further it was really a 20 year world war and the end of the into war here it was just a power a cost when if you look at it from an international relations theory perspective

here it kind of takes all of the ideology out because again if we want to go back to the to the nazi soviet cock of. august 18th 39 these are 2 states that are looking for their best advantage it has nothing really much to do with ideology but i mean you have these these. fake historians who are saying it's all about ideology it's bears but actually they're pretty peddling their own ideological pedigree. while i think it's true that wasn't actually really much of an international system and or period or previous concert a power switch and use it. in collapse under new system that had not yet in korea and yet your program uses them who needed nations that is not my successful and of course you know one major power even those. not understand the reasons and that is are all contacts now as a string of course and then if you go. we see

a much more stable international system was constructive that it was started by including. an octet along with the united states all that says we're still me it is indeed not the house itself most ace united states so union i don't know how ours you know rules of this is as a man it is a new groups but the. other is 99 percent of the time it make they stuck to the rules. and others are nothing to them so that all things are nothing to her. and i think this is indicative of why it's useful to security systems and not just curious this is economic systems the uses and so on which which are really close. i think this is all that's all coming out. in your is institutional.

marriage and the next. x. i think they don't rush. pretty much. using their race on that i'll say barbaric natal is all they need to know about getting a job. so i mean to finish all this you know i think the call we've got is the need to find a way are all looking back and saying things like. when we were together when we had equal assisted by might you say to everybody in the tent even if it doesn't mean well any. difficulties it's still bad or not at all we end this program on an excellent note i want to thank my guests in moscow and in ottawa i want to thank our viewers for watching us here argue see you next time remember.

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them but also acknowledge they. should businesses be protected from coronavirus related lawsuits that's the direction in which the g.o.p. is leaning former republican congressman bill mccollum is here with his take on this controversial issue on this edition of ticket. welcome to politicking i'm larry king should businesses be protected from coronavirus related lawsuits republican leaders have said any future economic aid package will pass or fail on this issue we'll start the conversation with former republican congressman bill mccollum of florida he also served as the attorney general of that state and.