hello and welcome to cross talk where all things are considered on peter lavelle 75 years ago this scourge of bashes them was defeated in europe the soviet union and its western allies were big torii what is the meaning of that victory today what explains recent efforts to rewrite history and what it counts for the efforts to diminish the sacrifice made by the peoples of the soviet union.

this and more i'm joined by my guest underneath me good on the he's a professor at moscow state institute of international relations and in ottawa we crossed to paul robinson he is a professor of history at the university of ottawa and author of numerous books and russian and history original macross up rules in effect that means you can jump i mean what i was. going to ball 1st in a lot of well obviously this pandemic here is cancel the press their buddies in russia on the 70 good banner verse 3 of the. second world war in europe in the end . but the spirit here is still very much alive and how is that spirit changed in your mind because i think it's fair to say that the big 3 in 1045 reenergize the legitimacy of communist rule in the soviet union and that in that maintained that was. maintained that it was me all the way when it's taken out and

i think even more important residents in kosovo hit russia in 202070 years. and i would attribute it to you as protecting russia from a very hostile and sure un world and certainly the kind of world we're living in right now. it's certainly true that there's been a very strong revival of memories of the. day or so i think it's quest stroke and such as the origin of the much of this row people carry the pictures of their ancestors of. so i think about 10 years ago maybe even less i mean it's a much an indication of. a circle almost bottom up. in trucks and very often it's described. accommodated as a city pushed down from the regime it's not it's not that it's not say

the regime has not put itself but the head of this. is not exploiting it and using it but it is but it's not an original. russian equal to whom is not so strong resonance. you know underneath i think at the poles point about the immortal regiments a very important here because. actually it's only been like 3 or 4 years it's much less than 10 and working in r.t.e. the number of my russian friends that send me pictures of their grandparents that were in the 2nd world war and asking if i could get it into a promotion or a film or a documentary that we may be making in our teahouse i think that's really remarkable paul point is really very important because it really is a groundswell and i still think you attribute that to a hostile world but at the same time it's a very interesting way to keep families together when we live in

a time of majority were families or congress pressure on breaking them up so it's a very interesting mechanism to look back at your family lineage and in let's face it russian history in the last 100 years is being termed mol to us say the least but that's one thing that they hang onto are their families go ahead under a new you know i think the problem that 1st of all every family has terrible losses during the run of the war and 2nd you know not a very jima who was there because he has and that's why they're already now who are most considered to be impact you know if it were. going back to the you know the world with napolitano which means this was a kind of. the problem of survival of the nation survival of the country my father was. you know one of the participants in 9 import you are on your last

right here near where i am living now in prague and to iraq at the outskirts of moscow there was i'd enjoy. for every family it still has a very significant meaning because it's not just a memory it is something which was just recently touched only when we can still touch participle of all of this is a story of events which was of course iran in russian history which was full of manage your know war as turmoil and different kind of thing this was the biggest this was. really its heart all of the forget if you are so ignored it is something very very important that's right and another problem is might be and i agree. with your i think your you mentioned that

we are living in a very specific situation a bit more than soviet union collapsed. and then you are now there was a reassessment are all historical events rash i was very awake in the ninety's. the year now there is a saying famous saying i don't know where i read that history is the modern day politics india or apply to the events in the past which may lead to their political situation is changing. one country is becoming stronger sound tragedy a week earlier and this is exactly the time based on current politics. to reassess where is no winner who is no longer under terrible hour when nobody was

even questioning today or all of the soviet union after 9 days and especially when our liberal oh so you know we're down to the question that our victories. our sacrifices. nature are underage and put you know nowadays comparisons then not to generate money and soviet union stalin and hitler both did create it and merit and now unfortunately it yet tanked to get out of this mess again with being a part of the unplanned that was brought up here because that is a function of the idea neo liberal ideology today is to conflate nazi germany in the soviet union ok and i would attribute much of that to is that in very simple words as it rushes it doesn't bend the knee to the washington consensus and because of that and other reasons they will deny the historical significance the meaning of victory over bashes when europe or what the russian people primarily but the other

peoples of the soviet union contributed to it's an ideological thing and it's them they're the ones that are being an ideological not russia russia is respecting historical facts. it's certainly true as a. lot of little elements in arms moves this are in the way history and the stories he gets it reflect the current political desirous i don't think is just neo liberals or the seniors that suit up complaints and union nazi germany coming. through are saying is a little action in the us. in terms of historical studies it dates back to. writing. this story but it's also people like timothy snyder who has various blogs who is very much union i'm not suggesting he is not more alas. right if it's generally

a desire to. 7 sensibly keep fighting the cold war and it is related to geopolitics and to so groups are typically like diaspora groups who are interested in. every part but that if the result is the same as it is to deny the peoples of then i say my words very carefully the peoples of the soviet union the sacrifice they me it's people like snyder that wants to make it political and ideological i don't see that in 2020 in her how the war is commemorated here i see a wide variety of issues the one thing that is missing is ideology and i think people like snyder and i think he's a shyster lawyer historian personally because i think what he does is a historical and he wants to just driving a political point but keep going yeah i mean. i think it is far more political

among those other people but it would be among russians. who are after all you know brits. more and the myth of the wars is just as large and. really cities as in russia. but there are definitely people who are using as the who curse as we saw this it in prague our risk taking down all monuments it is a soviet marshal who grip the city center nicobar and one in the rush of the british nothing which is the collaboration of general. downie well there is a vigil was so you might imagine if you look up the glass on you and why are you doing out we are doing now as a russian. it's a troll rush it is no i mean it's already been mistreated start to wind here with those parents who explained that gen is real quickly ok so i think it's

a general communist threat who was the marshal in charge at the front and he was replaced by. needing a place by our side just replaced by a monument she general when not too general assets of the russian liberation army which was the army formed by the germans from russia last year collaborator current regime yes so it took the serbian my mum and our elaborate. very serious star reasoning for this in that the russians the collaborationists russian army. the very last sentence sort of sides with us non german troops and our rights for the claim can historically be met a. lot that's not all of a sleight of hand here and when i find really interesting. and the leak is it

the whole cold war narrative about this is that the ending of the 2nd world war actually whitewash is a lot of the very fear aisle and nasty right wing fascist groups in eastern europe because after 145 they're just ok with that is the intentional way of turning away from the internal politics of all of these countries that have. parties even. governments and that is a whitewash right there and then they turn it on to russia where has no historical basis and are under any go ahead before we go to the break or you notice that this is very important the problem here is that unfortunately it many european nations and there where part of it where coalition against soviet union and. instead of feeling to guilt for participating in this

great bottles are not wrong side of history now they are trying to put the blame on soviet union and now on russia that the course should be a union of guilty and have the same responsibility for it all the great all of the war that's what they are trying to deprive. and who you know. good to parachute from delegitimized. i'm going to jump in here we've got to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion and bigotry in your 75 years on stay with. others financial survival guide i don't buy a i've caught up with each. other friday as of last summer buying from the future trucker watch guys are.

good to buy it is the in here will ya please do you think this is. more of an operation in dying or some of the wealthier neighborhoods it's been far more contained in the numbers are much lower than some of the more a neighborhood in star city. anything we're working with can source outside the state is there just so it is here so i think that it was. welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered i'm hearing about remind you we're discussing the end of the 2nd world war in europe.

ok let's go back to the poem ottawa. it's very interesting i've noticed you know on the edges here that this is an intentional process to delete the legitimize the so be it a big tree in the 2nd or i'm a cut i'm a conservative i don't like communism i lived in eastern europe during communist in the 1980 s. my my ideological critic grae is conservative because i'm not the right conservative as i'm so in 1945 b. the only elbow you had to what would become 2 great rivals it wasn't necessarily true at the time she king of the hands so. if we speed up to the last few years i think all of you and many of our viewers know the world at war series that i think came out in 1701 in the u.k. and it's in my mind it's one of the greatest documentaries series ever made about

the 2nd world war and if you look at you too slowly but surely there deleting and wiping away those episodes are still here and there but there seems to be consistent effort to persistent effort to even take away documentaries i mean it can see if it was made in the early seventy's that documentary could never be made in 2020 because of the international situation here why is that the case because history is supposed to be history right go ahead paul history is not just history i mean history is a subject to interpretations and that's oceans of honors them. as a freshman historian i endeavor to be objective but of course i company entirely no no no nobody is and it is inevitable. the it is it gives us a central will of the currents international climates. and

i think in part because of the he said you know one of us she has become so important in russia because of the russian government has. to do it right if it follows that if you want to dean of us russian government you have to deal with generosity. i mean it is all ok if you don't you know your mother this is not logical next step you have politically but in the process here do you deal with generalizing the the genuine interest and aspirations of the average russian in the average russian family in their relationship to the past so i mean it is you're right there is i don't think it is regarded as. i think the view of you know much that a distorted view the us. that may. sound that so you. do not as

a variable june 2nd world war i mean. it after all. delicious. if i were to say it's when. they're alone but it is so it is a nazi face i mean this is. massive. so i think that never is there is some concern which is not entirely legitimate that some racial row in. so what watches these i mean i mean and so this is while washing going on on both sides here i mean if you want to go down that path and you know why was president bombed ok the dropping of the atomic weapons on japan i mean you know we could go on and on and that's called what about what about is ok but i don't think it gets us really anywhere there underneath one of the things in with this touched on just disrespect and we touched on it is really it's not really about the outcome of the 2nd world war it's really the origins of the 2nd world war about invoking this

beside her character it end. sighing oh you how be it the nazi soviet pact display $939.00 that's their exhibit a all of the time they don't like to mention that just about every country in europe in eastern europe opened in 1034 and not aggression nazi germany that's not brought up because it's inconvenient ok oh it's inconvenient it was western powers that broke the state of czechoslovakia in unix ok all of these things are never mentioned ok they just look at the protocols are the protocols dastardly over you they are because the international system had collapsed and it was it was everyone was grabbing for what they could poland during the partition a check was about due to their pound of flesh from late for the failed state of czech was like it which the western powers turned into what my point is here if you really want to go into the nitty gritty we can go into the nitty gritty but i would like to see the meaning of the 2nd world war as

a unifying these people because there ideologically possessed want to use it is the debates of things and i think that's tragic because a lot of people die. i think that in russia we are a lot of you know both coming out of concern and the beginning of the 2nd world war and many of them reasonable in mentioning the alternative is where the turbulent times and a lot of it never since the end of the 1st world war never really the war ended which means. i put forward the idea of prevention and this 3 venue of the bishop for a gentleman's policy and the policy of many other countries italian or when i was india then italian german or against republic and.

then your mention and then partition czechoslovakia in one polish participation in this process all this again there are the who are then jumpin and china all these are you know nadal amongst all that chain of events which eventually brought so this great war when nazi germany invaded saw it union which meant it is oversimplification. you know just to mention all of the remender all boxed under the result partition is done here or part or they started europe or was taken power back this is very shallow and arthur right

a position does one thing i want to mention as i started this. really because nobody. interested in historical facts because politics is the basic. basics of her assessment of what happened how it happened what are the consequences of this invented the problem is in lined it up the arse in the world politics exactly this is what in the restaurant in washington and in european capitals at bliss they don't like to see they lot don't like and they don't want to accept russia as an equal power as a continue our of soviet union as the country was debit or as a country and who has very young aren't he russia has

something important to say and this is the russia's president and rashers might bit one of 2 or 2 real short inconscious in the world what they dislike this fish couldn't russia's position and rational policy you know i mean pull one of the things i know and am glad we kind of went to the origin see her and i think it's you that started out and it i mean if you look at international relations theory and in we've already heard mentioned you know and i think that's really i think a lot of people say there's going to be the beginning of the the short 20th century year that ended in 1901 in the end of the soviet union but it was it was a failed international system and i and what i get really angers me is because the soviet union was a communist state it was a pariah state was treated as a pariah state for almost the entire time in the interwar period until the war started almost entirely is it it was in international system based. by

western countries ok it was a failed one the precise settlement was rosalee. inadequate and i think most people most historians would say obviously it was the seeds for the 2nd woman world war you can even go further it was really a 20 year world war and the end of the into war here it was just a power a cost when if you look at it from an international relations theory perspective here it kind of takes all of the ideology out because again if we want to go back to the to the nazi soviet cock of. august 39th these are 2 states that are looking for their best advantage it has nothing really much to do with ideology but i mean you have these these. fake historians who are saying it's all about ideology it's bears but actually they're probably peddling their own ideological pedigree. while i think it's true that it wasn't actually really much of an international system

and war period bigger previous concert of powers which and existed. in collapse under new system had not yet in korea and yet your program uses who needed nations that is not a successful and of course you know one major power you know even those. not understandable reasons and that is are all contacts now as a single and then if you go. 45 we see much more stable international system was constructed but it was constructed by including. an octet along with the united states all that says we are still me it is indeed not for ourselves though say this united states so union i know how ours you know rules of the system i as a man it is a new groups but they need to know that there is a 99 percent of the time it make they stuck to the rules. and others are

nothing to them so that all things are not mean to. and i think this is indicative of why it's useful to security systems are not just curious as economic systems the lessons on which which are really close. i think this is a ball that's all coming out of. your ears by institutional. marriage and the next. x. i don't rush. pretty much. using their race on that i'll say bob and i are unable to have a good job again a job. so i mean to finish all this you know i mean the call we've got is the need to find a way are all looking back and saying things like. when we were together we had equal sis's problem trying to divide like you say to everybody in the tent even if

it doesn't go desperately well and a lot of difficulties it's still bad temper not at all we end this program on an excellent note i want to thank my guests in moscow and in ottawa i want to thank our viewers for watching us here argue see you next time remember. time after time corporations repeat the same mantra sustainability it's very important it's accelerate the transition to sustainable prize board sustainability . more equitable and sustainable world. they claim their production is completely harmless. because.

it does not the companies want us to feel good about buying their products while the damage is being done far away this is something else this let's keep going to an even and i need money. in unison we didn't want anyone and i'm stunned. undisputable to do so when in. we go to work. street whole.

tale of those below as you can see the 1st place and us unique. unit is that as a dog was a potential solution of wishing to go through the roof. jump into it's just plain dealer beginning to get smaller you know but i'm sure. this new mind that doesn't leave from such road to closure at least in the sentence can each speech by the newman impulse to just go. to the folks that was is what these are the choices in his cell death. the fox was decent person who's going to.

give your pitch. that you weld want to end it almost 75 years ago but thousands went missing in action lost in the woods and in swamps their families never knew what happened to them many are still waiting for loved ones to a time from the war and a dedicated few still taking lost soldiers home bitter us variably home edition he said i'm going to this new student. who was one of the know what it. is just a post in your spew on national throughout a book is just part of where he missed you.