hello and welcome the cross-talk where all things are considered on peter lavelle 75 years ago the scourge of bashes them was defeated in europe the soviet union and its western allies were big tory what is the meaning of that victory today what explains recent efforts to rewrite history and what it pounds for the efforts to diminish the sacrifice made by the peoples of the soviet union. this and more i'm joined by my guest underneath me good on ya and he's a professor at moscow state institute of international relations and in ottawa we

crossed him paul robinson he is a professor of history at the university of ottawa and author of numerous books and russian and history original macross up rules in effect that means you can jump i mean what i was. going to fall for is that in order well obviously this pandemic here is cancel the press their bodies in russia on the 70 good banner verse 3 of the end of the 2nd world war in europe and the end of them but the spirit here is still very much alive and how is that spirit changed in your mind because i think it's fair to say that the big 3 in 1045 reenergize the legitimacy of communist rule in the soviet union and that in that maintained that was maintained that it was me all the way when it's taken out and i think even more important residents in post soviet russia in 202070 years back and i would attribute it was protecting

russia from a very hostile and sure you want world and that's certainly the kind of world we're living in right now go ahead bill. it's certainly true that there's been a very strong revival of memories of the 2nd decade or so i think it's quest striking and such as the origin of the much of this row people carry the pictures of their ancestors a. thing about 10 years ago maybe even less it's a much an indication of. almost bottom up. it's not very often it's described. commentators as being pushed down from the regime it's not it's not my say the regime has not could insult the head of this. is not exploiting it and using it but it is but it's not an original. russian equal to whom is not so strong resonance

you know underneath i think it would poles point about the immortal regiments a very important here because. actually it's only been like 3 or 4 years it's much less than 10 and working in r.t.e. the number of my russian friends that send me pictures of their grandparents that were in the 2nd world war and asking if i could get it into a promotion or a film or a documentary that we may be making in our teahouse i think that's really remarkable paul point is really very important because it really is a groundswell and i still think attribute that to a hostile world but at the same time it's a very interesting way to keep families together when we live in a time of majority were families are countless pressure on breaking them up all the time so it's a very interesting mechanism to look back at your family lineage in let's face it russian history in the last 100 years is been trying more to us say the least but

that's one thing that they hang onto are their families go ahead under a new. yeah i think that the problem that we're stuck on every family had terrible losses during world war and 2nd you know not a diary jim was the victorious and that's why the war he never was considered to be a path to logic war going back to you know the world with natalee under which means this most kind of. the problem of survival of the nation some while our country my father was. you know one of the participants in 9 import you are on your last right here near where i am living now and talking to you are. going to go up a lot i'd enjoy. for every family it still has

a very significant meaning because it's not just a memory it is something which would just recently touch on it when we can still touch participants all of this is a story of events which was of course in one interaction history which was full of manage you know wars of turmoil and different kind of thing this was the biggest this was. really its heart all of the forget it are so ignored it is something very very important that's white and another parallel is my bit and i agree. with your i think your you mentioned that we are living in a very specific situation a bit more time soviet union collapsed. and then you're now there was

a reassessment are all historical events rash i was very awake in the ninety's. no there is a saying famous saying i don't know where i read that that history is the modern day politics india or apply to the events in the past which means that their political situation is changing some countries becoming stronger some tragedy a week earlier and this event blackall of the time based on current politics. doria 1st will the winner who is dollar under there are another there was even questioning there are all of soviet union after 9 days and especially when our liberals also all year now put down there to question our victory.

our sacrifices of nature are underage and put you on our death comparison and then magic gentleman hand soviet union and stalin and hitler oh did create it america and now unfortunately it tanked to get out if mass came with being a part of me i'm glad i was brought up here because that is a function of idea neo liberal ideology today is to conflate nazi germany in the soviet union ok and i wouldn't tribute much of that to is that in very simple words as it rushes it doesn't bend the knee to the washington consensus and because of that and other reasons they will deny the historical significance the meaning of victory over bashes them in europe for what the russian people primarily but the other peoples of the soviet union contributed to it's an ideological thing and it's there and they're the ones that are being an ideological not russia russia's respecting historical facts. is certainly true. that was

a bluff little elements in understanding this are in no way separate history the stories he gets it reflect the current political desirous i don't think is just neo liberals are because he's seen as a suit complaint so that union nazi germany coming to. rule saying is a little action in the us. in terms of historical studies it dates back to. writing. this story this was a people like timothy snyder who has various blogs who is very much union i'm not so young but he's not more a laugh you know who writes if it's generally a desire to. 7 keep fighting the cold war and it is related to geopolitics and to us. so groups are typically like diaspora groups who are

interested in. every part but that's it but the result is the same it seems to deny the peoples of the i say my words very carefully the peoples of the soviet union the sacrifice they me it's people like snyder that wants to make it political and ideological i don't see that in 2020 in no the war is commemorated here i see a wide variety of issues the one thing that is missing is ideology and i think people like snyder and i think he's a shyster lawyer historian personally because i think what he does is a historical and he wants to just drive a political point but keep going yeah i mean. i think it is far more political among those other people but it would be among interactions. or offer or you know. more and misunderstand or is just. really cities in

russia. but there are definitely people who using as the who curse as we saw this it improper risk taking down all monuments it is a soviet model to the great cities. and one in the russian the british nothing which is the collaboration of general. downie well there is i mean it was a minor event of lasagna what are you doing out we're doing now is russia going. to troll russia if not i mean it's already. a killer does paris who explained that general israel quickly ok. so i think it's a general communist threat who is the muscle in charge at the front and he was replaced by. anything or places so i just replaced by a monument see gen when i last saw the russian liberation army which was the army

formed by the germans from russia lost their collaborator it's currently in the same yes so it's a certain my mother elaborate. there is some historical reason for this in that the russians the collaborationists russian army. the very last sentence source which sides with the 1st 6 non german troops and. writes for the claim can be startling the may. that's not all of a sleight of hand here and when i find really interesting. and the leak is it the whole cold war narrative about the ending of the 2nd world war actually whitewash is a lot of the bury your aisle and nasty right wing fascist groups in

eastern europe because after 145 there are just ok but that is the intentional way of turning away from the internal politics of all of these countries that have had parties even. governments and that is a whitewash right there and then they they turn it on to russia where it has no historical basis and are under any go ahead before we go to the break or you're not definitive that this is very important the problem here is that on fortunately it manager the european nations and do their part or into their coalition against soviet union. instead of feeling to dig a little harder. dissipating in this great bottles on the wrong side of history now they are trying to put the blame on the soviet union and not on russia because soviet union was guilty and the same responsibility

for the outbreak all of the war. a tranquil depression i grant. you know to deprive russia from their legitimate or i. leg are going to jump in here we've got to go to a short break and after that short break we'll continue our discussion between your 75 years on stay with r.t. . thousands of american men and women choose to serve in the country's military and the decision. every song came to a complete. coldish kill me and i see how it destroyed my life any screamed at me and he made me come in and he grabbed my arm and he write me. if you take into account that women don't

report because of the extreme retaliation and it's probably somewhere near about half a 1000000 women have now been sexually assaulted in the us military is a very very traumatizing have happened but i've never seen trauma like. women who are veterans who have suffered military sexual trauma reporting rape is more likely to get the victim punished the offender and almost 10 year career or chose very invested and i gave. the founder who was not even put to justice or put on the registry this is simply an hour in violence male sexual predators for the large part of target whoever is there whether that's a man or woman. welcome

back to cross talk we're all things are considered i'm hearing about remind you we're discussing the end of the 2nd world war in europe. ok let's go back to poland. it's very interesting i've noticed you know on the edges here there is this is an intentional process to delete legitimize the so be a big tree mistaken or i'm a conservative i don't like communist. i lived in eastern europe during communist in the 1980 s. my dad my ideological pedigree is conservative because i'm not the right conservative as i'm so in 1945 b. the only elbow you have to what would become 2 great rivals it wasn't necessarily true at the time shaking up the hands so if we speed up to the last few years i think all of you and many of our viewers know the world at war series i think came

out in 1071 in the u.k. and it's in my mind it's one of the greatest documentaries series ever made about the 2nd world war and if you look at you too slowly but surely there deleting and wiping away those episodes are still here and there but there seems to be consistent effort to persistent effort to even take away documentaries i mean it can see if it was made in the early seventy's that documentary could never be made in 2020 because of the international situation here why is it the case because history is supposed to be history right go ahead paul or history is not just history on history it's a subject to interpretations and separations up on. them. as a question of a story and i endeavor to be objective but of course i company entirely no no no nobody is and it is inevitable. the it stations you get.

the currents international climates. i think in part because the he said no one of us he has become so important in russia because of the russian government has. to do it right if it follows that if you want to dean to the us the russian government you have to deal as it rises. i mean it is all good. don't you know your mother this is not logical next politically but in the process here do you deal with generalizing the the genuine interest and aspirations of the average russian in the average russian family in their relationship to the past so i mean it is you're right there is i don't think it is regarded as i think the view of being that much of the. us. that may. sound that so he.

does not as a. war i mean. it after all. delicious you know if i want to say it's when. i did so it is a nazi face i mean this is. massive. so i think that there is there is some concern which is not entirely legitimate that some racial grow in. so what washes i mean i mean i saw this a while washing going on on both sides here i mean if you want to go down that path and you know why was president bombed ok the dropping of the atomic weapons on japan i mean you know we could go on and on and that's called what about what about is ok but i don't think it gets us really anywhere there underneath one of the things in with this touched on just this for

a 2nd we touched on it is really it's not really about the outcome of the 2nd world war it's really the origins of the 2nd world war about invoking the the snyder character here and sign no you have the that the nazi soviet pact display 939 that's their exhibit a all of the time and they don't like to mention that just about every country in europe they play nice 3 year old in $1034.00 and non-aggression pact with nazi germany that's not brought up because it's inconvenient ok oh it's inconvenient but it was western powers that broke up. this is a gift czechoslovakia in unix ok all of these things are never mentioned ok they just look at the protocols are the protocols dastardly over you they are because the international system had collapsed and it was a rock it was everyone was grabbing for what they could poland during the partition a check was about due to their pound of flesh from late from the failed state of czech was like it which the western powers turned into what my point is here if you

really want to go into the nitty gritty we can go into the nitty gritty but i would like to see the meaning of the 2nd world war as a unifying these people because their ideologically possessed want to use it is the debase of thing and i think that's tragic because a lot of people die. i think that in russia when a lot of you know a boat coming out of concern and the beginning of the 2nd world war and many of them reasonable in mentioning the alternative is where the turbulent times and a lot of it never since the end of 1st world war never really the war ended which means that i put forward the idea of prevention and this 3 venue of the bishop for a gentleman's policy and the policy of many other countries italian or when i was

india then italian or german or against republican. then your mention and then partition czechoslovakia and a lot of polish participation in this process all this again there are the who are then jumpin and china all these are you know nadal amongst all that chain of events which eventually brought so there is great when nazi germany invaded so if you want which mince it is oversimplification. or just don't mention all of the ribbon drop box under the result partition is done here or part or they started europe or was taken power back this is very

shallow and are so right a position the one thing i want to mention as i started this. really because nobody. interested in historical facts because politics is the basic. basics for an assessment of what happened how it happened what are the consequences of all this events the problem is in mind this rash of was very weak or a turn off country and now are ashes regaining his position over one of the major actors in the world politics exactly this is what in the west and in washington and in european capitals stop playing they don't like to see they look don't like and they don't want to accept rather

than equal power as the continue their of soviet union as the country or the victorious country and who has very young. russia has something important to say and this is the rational position and russia's might one of 2 or 2 real short inconscious in the world what they like this current russia's position and russia policy. you know in the poll one of the things i'm glad we kind of went to the origin see her and i think it really started out and i mean if you look at international relations theory and we've already heard i mentioned you know and i think that's really i think a lot of people say that the the beginning of the short 20th century year that ended in 1901 in the end of the soviet union but it was it was

a failed international system and i when i get really angers me is because the soviet union was a communist state and it was a pariah state was treated as a pariah state for almost the entire time in the interwar period until the war started and entirely is that it was. in international system based on. western countries ok it was a failed one the 1st side settlement was rowsley in at equipped and i think most people most historians would say obviously it was the seeds for the 2nd woman world war you can even go further it was really a 20 year world war and the end of the into war here it was just a power a cost when if you look at it from an international relations theory perspective here it kind of takes all of the ideology out because again if we want to go back to the to the nazi soviet cock of. august 839 these are 2 states that are looking for their best advantage it has nothing really much to do with ideology but i mean

you have these. fake historians who are saying it's all about ideology it's bears but actually they're probably peddling their own ideological pedigree go ahead. while i think it's true that wasn't actually really much of an international system and war period it or previous concert a power switch and existed. in collapse under new system that had not yet in korea and yet your program uses them who needed nations that is not my successful and of course you know one major power even those. not understand the reasons and that is are all contacts now as a string of course and then if you go. we see a much more stable international system was constructive that it was started by including. an octet along with the united states all that.

we are still me it is indeed enough for ourselves most ace united states so union i know how ours you know rules of the system i as a man it is a new groups but the. other is 99 percent of the time it make they suck up to the rules. and others are nothing to them so that all things are not mean to. and i think this is indicative of why it's useful to have security systems are not just curious as economic systems the the systems on which which are really close. i think it was is all that's all coming out of. your is not institutional others it's all. very good and the next ok they don't rush it pretty much. using their result that also a barbaric nature is also

a veto budget major. so i mean to finish all this you know i think the call we've got is the need to find a way are all looking back and saying things like. when we were together when we had equals assist role in china goodbye might you say to everybody. even if it doesn't do. well in a lot of difficulties it's still bad not topical we end this program on an excellent note i want to thank my guests in moscow and in ottawa i want to thank our viewers for watching us here argues the next time we remember. the sotu and to cause a belief so he can reach the other than those of us who want to.

put on the better. the book instance all that is dismissed. instead of. having to. go if you'll still be stuck in the course purely business to. go to the church. we think you might be so good soldier to piss off the boots he's wearing. dish which took the sold out so to move the opposable appeal for the book and then you'll get on the show stuck with summarizing stories for just sort of us hold.

your kid up be bold with the yeah you're right. time after time called parisian to repeat the same mantra sustainability it's very important it's accelerate the transition to sustainable transport sustainability spain over man at a more equitable and sustainable well. they claim that production is completely hamas followed dissolute the at. least. has the models and not it does not the present companies want us to feel good about buying their products while the damage is being done far away there's a 2nd eldest that's the point any minute i mean look. this is the moves i mean

listen we didn't want anyone and i'm stunned seen them in the best understood look forward to going into. the savings headlines while the international rushes says more than 1200 coronavirus patients are being treated on ventilators often the last chance for the gravely ill a survivor tells us how it feels when you fall the concrete by itself. waking up on a ventilator was a very unusual feeling as if i had been underwater had a lot of tube sticking out. my mouth the machine was breathing for me. to greet locals vandalize hotels to the host asylum seekers as more of a move from refugee camp to the mainland. and remembering victory in europe exactly 75 years after the defeat of nazi terror and our correspondents. tell us.